01-27-2015 06:51 PM
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  1. SteveISU's Avatar
    I'm sure you're not a fan of his, but he has some very valid points.



    Oh and I think I've posted the video earlier, but since we're back at pretending that this has nothing to do with race, I figured it needs to be revisited.
    I like John Stewart and Colbert. But I stopped when he said "Unarmed black teenager gunned down under suspicious circumstances". I'm not sure when the show aired, but perpetuating the lies is getting old.
    12-23-2014 12:20 PM
  2. anon8126715's Avatar
    I like John Stewart and Colbert. But I stopped when he said "Unarmed black teenager gunned down under suspicious circumstances". I'm not sure when the show aired, but perpetuating the lies is getting old.
    They found a weapon on Michael Brown? When did that happen? Or are you talking about the "suspicious" part? Well lets see, he fired several shots at someone who was unarmed. That always seems suspicious to me, regardless of what a grand jury decides (especially one that's hand picked by a DA that works side-by-side with the very police force that's being questioned).
    A895 likes this.
    12-23-2014 12:27 PM
  3. SteveISU's Avatar
    They found a weapon on Michael Brown? When did that happen? Or are you talking about the "suspicious" part? Well lets see, he fired several shots at someone who was unarmed. That always seems suspicious to me, regardless of what a grand jury decides (especially one that's hand picked by a DA that works side-by-side with the very police force that's being questioned).

    Before Brown, in any city, assaulting a police officer and attempting to take his gun is a pretty sure fire way to get shot when he feels it's his life or yours. I don't think there's any rational person in the country who feels a cop isn't justified in protecting himself in that case. The entire uproar over Brown was started by a lie. One that Dorian Johnson told, which was they did nothing, he had his hands up and was shot in the back. It then took off and the race baiters headed on down.
    12-23-2014 01:07 PM
  4. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I thought it was an absolute disgrace when the NY cops turned their backs on their mayor. He is a white guy that has children of mixed race and he knows first hand that his children will be subject to a different set of rules and wants to do something about it.
    If he, or anyone, is worried about his kids having confrontations with the police, then perhaps he should be telling his kids not to break the law in the first place, instead of being afraid of what cops will do if they are stopped. Cops are charged to enforce the laws that the politicians enact. They aren't hunting people down just to be judge, jury, and executioner. You break the law, they will come after you. Treat them with disrespect, fighting them, trying to get their gun, etc, and they will step up force to get you to comply. It's all about attitude when interacting with them.
    SteveISU and anon(92475) like this.
    12-23-2014 01:20 PM
  5. GadgetGator's Avatar
    On a moving bus? Unless the man shot someone of significance, they're not going to conduct an all out manhunt at the drop of a dime.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Really? How hard would it have been to have the cops meet the guy at the first stop or at least the destination? Not hard at all.

    Ironically, that "not important enough" thinking led to
    two of their own being killed. Hmmmm...maybe they should rethink that strategy of feathering only their OWN nest.

    Posted via Android Central App
    12-23-2014 01:54 PM
  6. anon8126715's Avatar
    Before Brown, in any city, assaulting a police officer and attempting to take his gun is a pretty sure fire way to get shot when he feels it's his life or yours. I don't think there's any rational person in the country who feels a cop isn't justified in protecting himself in that case. The entire uproar over Brown was started by a lie. One that Dorian Johnson told, which was they did nothing, he had his hands up and was shot in the back. It then took off and the race baiters headed on down.
    So how many shots do you believe it should take to neutralize someone trying to assault or disarm you? The problem I have with the scenario is are we telling cops that it's ok to kill someone if they assault you? A cop (as anyone else) should have the right to defend him/herself, but to what end? When does self defense become murder? All those times I got into fights in school, I never knew that murder was an option for me.

    If he, or anyone, is worried about his kids having confrontations with the police, then perhaps he should be telling his kids not to break the law in the first place, instead of being afraid of what cops will do if they are stopped. Cops are charged to enforce the laws that the politicians enact. They aren't hunting people down just to be judge, jury, and executioner. You break the law, they will come after you. Treat them with disrespect, fighting them, trying to get their gun, etc, and they will step up force to get you to comply. It's all about attitude when interacting with them.
    Why are you assuming that they're going to break the law? Under the stop and frisk laws, no law had to be broken. The mayor actually won because he wanted to put an end to stop and frisk (which is a violation of the 4th amendment, btw). I find it interesting that you automatically assume that there had to be a violation of a law. I heard someone mention that the tactic of Stop and Frisk was never done on Wall Street. I can only imagine what kind of uproar would be made if it was. But sure, we're not applying the law differently to different racial groups, no racism taking place here..... /sarcasm
    A895 and palandri like this.
    12-23-2014 02:00 PM
  7. SteveISU's Avatar
    Really? How hard would it have been to have the cops meet the guy at the first stop or at least the destination? Not hard at all.

    Ironically, that "not important enough" thinking led to
    two of their own being killed. Hmmmm...maybe they should rethink that strategy of feathering only their OWN nest.

    Posted via Android Central App
    There isn't a PD in the country or the US Marshals for that matter, that is going to mobilize that quick for a local domestic violence case unless there was credible evidence to suggest it was the start of something bigger.
    12-23-2014 02:12 PM
  8. SteveISU's Avatar
    So how many shots do you believe it should take to neutralize someone trying to assault or disarm you? The problem I have with the scenario is are we telling cops that it's ok to kill someone if they assault you? A cop (as anyone else) should have the right to defend him/herself, but to what end? When does self defense become murder? All those times I got into fights in school, I never knew that murder was an option for me.
    You fire as many shots as it takes for the assailant to stop his advance. That's what you are taught, it's as simple as that. The sheer number of shots is irrelevant. The assault/the attempting to take a cops gun is a predication for self defense. If Dorian Johnson's story was true, that he was on his knees surrendering when Wilson unloaded on him, that's murder. If both Brown and Gardner followed a lawful order and didn't willingly escalate things, they'd both be alive today. Teach that to the kids; white, black, brown, green or purple.
    12-23-2014 02:21 PM
  9. anon8126715's Avatar
    You fire as many shots as it takes for the assailant to stop his advance. That's what you are taught, it's as simple as that. The sheer number of shots is irrelevant. The assault/the attempting to take a cops gun is a predication for self defense. If Dorian Johnson's story was true, that he was on his knees surrendering when Wilson unloaded on him, that's murder. If both Brown and Gardner followed a lawful order and didn't willingly escalate things, they'd both be alive today. Teach that to the kids; white, black, brown, green or purple.
    I still question the amount of force used based on the crime committed. I don't know of many crimes where on-site death penalty is the sentence in many countries.
    A895 likes this.
    12-23-2014 03:09 PM
  10. SteveISU's Avatar
    I still question the amount of force used based on the crime committed. I don't know of many crimes where on-site death penalty is the sentence in many countries.
    Then you have to ask yourself how much abuse and how far should we expect cops to be pushed before something like that happens? Should we wait for the perp to get his primary before he can grab his secondary and being to shoot? Should we wait till a bullet comes his way? Some people will always question it, until they are in that position. If someone breaks into your home and it's him or you and your kids, do you shoot him in the knee and then start negotiating with him? I don't, I shoot till he stops moving. If it took one bullet center mass to take Brown down people would be complaining one was too many.
    12-23-2014 03:17 PM
  11. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Why are you assuming that they're going to break the law? Under the stop and frisk laws, no law had to be broken. The mayor actually won because he wanted to put an end to stop and frisk (which is a violation of the 4th amendment, btw). I find it interesting that you automatically assume that there had to be a violation of a law.
    I don't know many details on stop and frisk, so I have no opinion on that. As for what the Mayor is teaching his kids about being weary of cops, that's just baseless fear unless you're giving the cops reason to subdue you. I.e. breaking the law and resisting arrest.

    What we should be teaching kids is that you respect the police and do as they say. If you have a problem with it, arguing on the street isn't the time or place to do so. There's other avenues to do that, up to and including taking them to court if need be.
    12-23-2014 03:45 PM
  12. A895's Avatar
    If he, or anyone, is worried about his kids having confrontations with the police, then perhaps he should be telling his kids not to break the law in the first place, instead of being afraid of what cops will do if they are stopped. Cops are charged to enforce the laws that the politicians enact. They aren't hunting people down just to be judge, jury, and executioner. You break the law, they will come after you. Treat them with disrespect, fighting them, trying to get their gun, etc, and they will step up force to get you to comply. It's all about attitude when interacting with them.
    Have you not seen the video of the black guy getting stopped by a cop for having his hands in his pockets? Unfortunately confrontations with the police can't always be avoided when you are of a certain color.
    12-23-2014 03:48 PM
  13. A895's Avatar
    Then you have to ask yourself how much abuse and how far should we expect cops to be pushed before something like that happens? Should we wait for the perp to get his primary before he can grab his secondary and being to shoot? Should we wait till a bullet comes his way? Some people will always question it, until they are in that position. If someone breaks into your home and it's him or you and your kids, do you shoot him in the knee and then start negotiating with him? I don't, I shoot till he stops moving. If it took one bullet center mass to take Brown down people would be complaining one was too many.
    Jesus, I would shoot him in the knee or break his jaw. A robber does not need to die, that sounds like someone who is very violent who is willing to kill on site.
    12-23-2014 03:51 PM
  14. A895's Avatar
    I don't know many details on stop and frisk, so I have no opinion on that. As for what the Mayor is teaching his kids about being weary of cops, that's just baseless fear unless you're giving the cops reason to subdue you. I.e. breaking the law and resisting arrest.

    What we should be teaching kids is that you respect the police and do as they say. If you have a problem with it, arguing on the street isn't the time or place to do so. There's other avenues to do that, up to and including taking them to court if need be.
    If a cop is stopping you on the street for walking with your hands in your pocket, do you not question why are you being stopped? You sound like you would let someone tread on your rights as a citizen.
    12-23-2014 03:52 PM
  15. anon8126715's Avatar
    Then you have to ask yourself how much abuse and how far should we expect cops to be pushed before something like that happens? Should we wait for the perp to get his primary before he can grab his secondary and being to shoot? Should we wait till a bullet comes his way? Some people will always question it, until they are in that position. If someone breaks into your home and it's him or you and your kids, do you shoot him in the knee and then start negotiating with him? I don't, I shoot till he stops moving. If it took one bullet center mass to take Brown down people would be complaining one was too many.
    Abuse is always easier to deal with than death.
    A895 likes this.
    12-23-2014 04:14 PM
  16. anon8126715's Avatar
    I don't know many details on stop and frisk, so I have no opinion on that. As for what the Mayor is teaching his kids about being weary of cops, that's just baseless fear unless you're giving the cops reason to subdue you. I.e. breaking the law and resisting arrest.

    What we should be teaching kids is that you respect the police and do as they say. If you have a problem with it, arguing on the street isn't the time or place to do so. There's other avenues to do that, up to and including taking them to court if need be.
    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...Stop+and+frisk
    12-23-2014 04:15 PM
  17. A895's Avatar
    I don't know many details on stop and frisk, so I have no opinion on that. As for what the Mayor is teaching his kids about being weary of cops, that's just baseless fear unless you're giving the cops reason to subdue you. I.e. breaking the law and resisting arrest.

    What we should be teaching kids is that you respect the police and do as they say. If you have a problem with it, arguing on the street isn't the time or place to do so. There's other avenues to do that, up to and including taking them to court if need be.
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=9_wLTmnKP5I
    12-23-2014 04:21 PM
  18. Mooncatt's Avatar
    If a cop is stopping you on the street for walking with your hands in your pocket, do you not question why are you being stopped? You sound like you would let someone tread on your rights as a citizen.
    Questing the stop while removing your hands is one thing. Actively resisting an order and being confrontational with the cop is another entirely.

    Another example is around here we have a bad truancy rate, so now cops are starting to question kids and parents if the kids are seen on the streets during school time. That's a legitimate issue and I have no problem with it even though we home school and have a reason why our kids may be out during "school hours." Yet some of the other homeschool parents are up in arms, trying to tell their kids to ignore the cops and not answer any questions. Well guess what'll happen if you do that. You'll be detained, and then the cops will do a lot more than ask a simple question or two. If you start resisting, then they will continue escalating their force until you do comply.

    It's a case of learning to pick your battles. Is it better to comply with a simple request, or resist and risk arrest, injury, and potentially being shot because you became too aggressive towards the cop?
    Jesus, I would shoot him in the knee or break his jaw. A robber does not need to die, that sounds like someone who is very violent who is willing to kill on site.
    We've already been over this one. We're talking real life, not movie trick shots.
    12-23-2014 04:47 PM
  19. A895's Avatar
    Questing the stop while removing your hands is one thing. Actively resisting an order and being confrontational with the cop is another entirely.

    Another example is around here we have a bad truancy rate, so now cops are starting to question kids and parents if the kids are seen on the streets during school time. That's a legitimate issue and I have no problem with it even though we home school and have a reason why our kids may be out during "school hours." Yet some of the other homeschool parents are up in arms, trying to tell their kids to ignore the cops and not answer any questions. Well guess what'll happen if you do that. You'll be detained, and then the cops will do a lot more than ask a simple question or two. If you start resisting, then they will continue escalating their force until you do comply.

    It's a case of learning to pick your battles. Is it better to comply with a simple request, or resist and risk arrest, injury, and potentially being shot because you became too aggressive towards the cop?


    We've already been over this one. We're talking real life, not movie trick shots.
    I am talking real life too. Killing on sight is movie stuff, no one needs to die.
    12-23-2014 05:16 PM
  20. A895's Avatar
    It freaking angers me that I have to risk being shot or arrested by a ******* cop because I want to know why I got stopped on the street. That isn't how it should work, point blank!

    I dare someone to try to justify the video I just posted. No one should be stopped for just walking down the street.
    12-23-2014 05:26 PM
  21. GadgetGator's Avatar
    There isn't a PD in the country or the US Marshals for that matter, that is going to mobilize that quick for a local domestic violence case unless there was credible evidence to suggest it was the start of something bigger.
    Domestic violence? He SHOT her and everyone including the girlfriend knew he was heading to NYC. Plus the guy had a rap sheet a mile long. At that point you realize it's not a domestic violence case, but rather one of protecting the safety of the public. And in hindsight, the safety of even their own.

    You are making way too many excuses for police incompetence.

    Posted via Android Central App
    12-23-2014 06:56 PM
  22. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I am talking real life too. Killing on sight is movie stuff, no one needs to die.
    Let me know when you find someone that can hit a moving intruder in the knee RELIABLY to wound him. Then after all the civil lawsuits are over for him injuring a burglar (that kind of stuff does happen and the perps sometimes win), you need to get him to re-train every police officer and every gun training facility on how to aim for the limbs instead of center mass.

    I dare someone to try to justify the video I just posted. No one should be stopped for just walking down the street.
    As with most of these videos, we don't know what happened leading up to it, but the officer did say someone called in to report the guy as suspicious. I'd say there's a debate to be had as to whether or not the call was justified, but we have zero info about it. For all we know, he could have been tap dancing up and down the sidewalk. Whenever the police get a call, it's standard procedure to check it out regardless of how minor it sounds. That situation looks like it was handled mostly ok, though the guy shooting the video could have lost some of the attitude. Props to the officer for actively trying to diffuse the situation. He probably thought the call was pointless too but still needed to follow procedure.
    12-23-2014 07:19 PM
  23. A895's Avatar
    Let me know when you find someone that can hit a moving intruder in the knee RELIABLY to wound him. Then after all the civil lawsuits are over for him injuring a burglar (that kind of stuff does happen and the perps sometimes win), you need to get him to re-train every police officer and every gun training facility on how to aim for the limbs instead of center mass.
    So kill intruders to avoid civil lawsuits?



    As with most of these videos, we don't know what happened leading up to it, but the officer did say someone called in to report the guy as suspicious. I'd say there's a debate to be had as to whether or not the call was justified, but we have zero info about it. For all we know, he could have been tap dancing up and down the sidewalk. Whenever the police get a call, it's standard procedure to check it out regardless of how minor it sounds. That situation looks like it was handled mostly ok, though the guy shooting the video could have lost some of the attitude. Props to the officer for actively trying to diffuse the situation. He probably thought the call was pointless too but still needed to follow procedure.
    Lost some attitude? Someone walking down the street is suspicious? You definitely tried to justify it.
    12-23-2014 07:49 PM
  24. Mooncatt's Avatar
    So kill intruders to avoid civil lawsuits?
    You missed the point. You can't count on shooting to wound. It's too risky that you'll miss. That could mean the difference between your life and death from an attacker. But you seem to think you know more than every other trained shooter out there, so go have fun thinking you can shoot their knees out, shoot the gun from their hand, or whatever else you've seen in the movies. That's the only place those kinds of shots are pulled off.

    The side effect of mearly wounding an attacker, burglar, etc, is that they can come back and sue you for shooting them and win.
    12-23-2014 08:53 PM
  25. A895's Avatar
    You missed the point. You can't count on shooting to wound. It's too risky that you'll miss. That could mean the difference between your life and death from an attacker. But you seem to think you know more than every other trained shooter out there, so go have fun thinking you can shoot their knees out, shoot the gun from their hand, or whatever else you've seen in the movies. That's the only place those kinds of shots are pulled off.

    The side effect of mearly wounding an attacker, burglar, etc, is that they can come back and sue you for shooting them and win.
    So try to avoid civil lawsuits by shooting to kill? I am not saying shoot them in the knee (I won't own a gun anyways, I don't think), so I would rather use a stick to knock them out or (because I am a muscular black guy) whoop some ***. But that is just me. Of course others will differ from my non-kill stance.
    12-23-2014 10:47 PM
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