01-27-2015 06:51 PM
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  1. SteveISU's Avatar
    Here's the flaw with your logic. You say that the only ones to be concerned about are the widows (strangely ignoring other family members like parents or siblings) but do you think these cops ran to the widows beforehand and asked permission? I sincerely doubt it.

    The time to worry about widows being offended is before the action, not after the fact. And just because the widows have not called the press conference you seem to want, does not mean they were not offended.

    Posted via Android Central App
    You think some of the unconventional things people do at funerals is cleared by all the attendees first? If my wife wants to play "Another one bites the dust" at my wake do you think she needs to clear it with my sister? Does my Brother in law have ask my permission for anything when he buries my sister? It's his wife and none of my business.

    You don't know if a "ring leader" got the go ahead from the widow or not. It's not like deBlasio showed up unannounced. You also don't know what the wife or her husband thought of the mayor for that matter. He could have conveyed to her that he thinks he's an *****. Like I said, no one, not the wife or any of his family has spoken out against it. You seem to be more than willing to do the talking for them despite any evidence they had a problem with the silent demonstration.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    01-13-2015 08:39 PM
  2. anon8126715's Avatar
    You think some of the unconventional things people do at funerals is cleared by all the attendees first? If my wife wants to play "Another one bites the dust" at my wake do you think she needs to clear it with my sister? Does my Brother in law have ask my permission for anything when he buries my sister? It's his wife and none of my business.

    You don't know if a "ring leader" got the go ahead from the widow or not. It's not like deBlasio showed up unannounced. You also don't know what the wife or her husband thought of the mayor for that matter. He could have conveyed to her that he thinks he's an *****. Like I said, no one, not the wife or any of his family has spoken out against it. You seem to be more than willing to do the talking for them despite any evidence they had a problem with the silent demonstration.
    There are a few things that I don't like about their actions. First the mayor's actions had NO BEARING on these officers being killed. This was some deranged person that had already shot his ex in another state. This guy's actions wasn't a result of some radical policy enacted by the mayor. Second, a funeral is supposed to be about the person that everyone has come to mourn. The officers trying to make a political statement at a funeral is as tasteless as it gets. You're there to mourn someone that died in the line of duty, not to show your disapproval of the mayor. To all the officers that decided to use the funeral to show their political views, they're a disgrace to the shield and I feel bad for the fallen officer who's life meant less to these self-serving pigs.

    From what I've read, the NYPD is arresting less people and issuing less citations as an act of defiance. If that's the case, if it's in the mayor's power, I'd start laying off police officers. And my justification would be that since arrests are down, it's obvious that our police force is bloated and needs to be cut down to meet the levels of arrests being made. If the NYPD wants to challenge that logic and admit that they're cutting back their arrest count in protest, then I say mass arrests for obstruction of justice. I would advise they not turn their back while in prison.....
    A895 and palandri like this.
    01-13-2015 08:52 PM
  3. Scott7217's Avatar
    He technically isn't their direct superior, and I'm sure there's a police association that would argue against them being released.
    I think we can agree that the union is very powerful, and we probably shouldn't expect the police to be punished with anything more than a stern verbal reprimand for turning their backs on Mayor de Blasio. The union won't allow anything more severe than that.

    Furthermore, in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo shooting, New York won't be firing cops anytime soon because the city is on high alert against terrorist attacks.
    01-13-2015 10:40 PM
  4. anon8126715's Avatar
    I think we can agree that the union is very powerful, and we probably shouldn't expect the police to be punished with anything more than a stern verbal reprimand for turning their backs on Mayor de Blasio. The union won't allow anything more severe than that.

    Furthermore, in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo shooting, New York won't be firing cops anytime soon because the city is on high alert against terrorist attacks.
    If the officers are willfully not doing their jobs then that's a fireable offense at any job, except U.S. Senator of course....
    A895 likes this.
    01-13-2015 10:57 PM
  5. SteveISU's Avatar
    There are a few things that I don't like about their actions. First the mayor's actions had NO BEARING on these officers being killed. This was some deranged person that had already shot his ex in another state. This guy's actions wasn't a result of some radical policy enacted by the mayor. Second, a funeral is supposed to be about the person that everyone has come to mourn. The officers trying to make a political statement at a funeral is as tasteless as it gets. You're there to mourn someone that died in the line of duty, not to show your disapproval of the mayor. To all the officers that decided to use the funeral to show their political views, they're a disgrace to the shield and I feel bad for the fallen officer who's life meant less to these self-serving pigs.

    From what I've read, the NYPD is arresting less people and issuing less citations as an act of defiance. If that's the case, if it's in the mayor's power, I'd start laying off police officers. And my justification would be that since arrests are down, it's obvious that our police force is bloated and needs to be cut down to meet the levels of arrests being made. If the NYPD wants to challenge that logic and admit that they're cutting back their arrest count in protest, then I say mass arrests for obstruction of justice. I would advise they not turn their back while in prison.....
    Again, it was a silent and peaceful demonstration for their lack of support of the mayor. He ran a campaign vilifying the NYPD, he allowed the protests to get out of hand, and when two cops were assassinated he turtled away. The demonstration was to show solidarity among themselves and those two officers who lost their life. IMHO anyone who uses a derogatory term calling cops "pigs" shows me they have an utter disregard and disrespect for what they do and the sacrifice they make. It would be akin to me calling a group of people whatever racist or prejudicial name I felt like because I disagree with them. You think these guys chose that career because getting a badge and a gun would be cool? Without them where do you think our civilization would be?

    Many police departments around the nation have altered how they patrol. No more single man squad cars, no more responding to calls without at least 4 officers. Their force in numbers has been contracted as a result of the attacks on the NYPD. Furthermore I highly doubt you will see anyone get laid off given arrests are down, a city like NY or any urban city for that matter is best policed through strength in numbers. Pro-active policing and having a "presence". Unless you want NY to go back to the days of Ed Koch.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    01-14-2015 09:47 AM
  6. Scott7217's Avatar
    If the officers are willfully not doing their jobs then that's a fireable offense at any job, except U.S. Senator of course....
    How many police officers have been fired as a direct result from turning their backs on Mayor de Blasio?
    01-14-2015 02:17 PM
  7. Scott7217's Avatar
    Did the widows create an uproar? Because they would be the only ones who have a right to voice their displeasure about what took place at their loved ones wake/funeral.
    As far as I can tell, the widows and the families of Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu did not complain about the police officers turning their backs during the portion of the service where Mayor de Blasio was speaking.

    Certainly, if they had an issue with the protest, it is well within the rights of the widows and the families to ask the protesting officers to leave the premises.

    If that did not remedy the situation, then they can always sue the police in court. I doubt a jury would rule against a grieving family.
    01-14-2015 02:57 PM
  8. GadgetGator's Avatar
    You think some of the unconventional things people do at funerals is cleared by all the attendees first? If my wife wants to play "Another one bites the dust" at my wake do you think she needs to clear it with my sister? Does my Brother in law have ask my permission for anything when he buries my sister? It's his wife and none of my business.

    You don't know if a "ring leader" got the go ahead from the widow or not. It's not like deBlasio showed up unannounced. You also don't know what the wife or her husband thought of the mayor for that matter. He could have conveyed to her that he thinks he's an *****. Like I said, no one, not the wife or any of his family has spoken out against it. You seem to be more than willing to do the talking for them despite any evidence they had a problem with the silent demonstration.
    You seem more then willing to define what is now acceptable at a funeral and assume who was not offended. Again, just because someone doesn't make a public statement doesn't mean they weren't. And comparing a song to some political action is rather ridiculous. Not even close to being the same.

    But worse, you are also comparing an action taken by a family member without asking, vs a complete stranger doing something without asking. Do you think those things are the same? Total false equivalency.

    Posted via Android Central App
    A895 likes this.
    01-14-2015 03:25 PM
  9. Scott7217's Avatar
    It most certainly DOES matter. A funeral is a solemn occasion. It's not an ordinary event and certainly is NOT the place for a protest. If someone isn't going to respect that, then what and where will they?
    People will respect those who have earned their respect at a place and time of their choosing. Respect that is forced instead of given freely is not true respect.

    Funerals can be solemn, but they don't have to be. Joan Rivers wanted a funeral full of laughs. Howard Stern opened her funeral by saying, "Joan Rivers' only problem was that she had a dry [name of a female body part]." (You can use Google if you really want to know what Stern actually said.)

    Funerals can also be a venue for protests. I wouldn't be surprised if someone yelled at Eric Garner's funeral and said that the cops murdered him in cold blood by choking him to death. You'd probably get a lot of people at the funeral to agree (vocally and loudly) with that.

    I'm sure the police officers attending the funerals of Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu wanted to speak their mind and voice their displeasure at Mayor de Blasio, but they had the frame of mind to bite their tongue and turn around instead of saying something.
    01-14-2015 04:36 PM
  10. A895's Avatar
    People will respect those who have earned their respect at a place and time of their choosing. Respect that is forced instead of given freely is not true respect.

    Funerals can be solemn, but they don't have to be. Joan Rivers wanted a funeral full of laughs. Howard Stern opened her funeral by saying, "Joan Rivers' only problem was that she had a dry [name of a female body part]." (You can use Google if you really want to know what Stern actually said.)

    Funerals can also be a venue for protests. I wouldn't be surprised if someone yelled at Eric Garner's funeral and said that the cops murdered him in cold blood by choking him to death. You'd probably get a lot of people at the funeral to agree (vocally and loudly) with that.

    I'm sure the police officers attending the funerals of Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu wanted to speak their mind and voice their displeasure at Mayor de Blasio, but they had the frame of mind to bite their tongue and turn around instead of saying something.
    A joke is not equal to a political statement, I don't care what anyone says. I would be a ghost mad as hell if someone took my funeral as an opportunity to make their own political statement.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    GadgetGator likes this.
    01-14-2015 05:20 PM
  11. Scott7217's Avatar
    A joke is not equal to a political statement, I don't care what anyone says. I would be a ghost mad as hell if someone took my funeral as an opportunity to make their own political statement.
    You have the right to be mad, which is why you should exercise that right and tell people to leave the funeral if you do not agree with their behavior.

    I also stated that the courts are an option. Like I said, no jury is going to rule against a grieving family. Use it to your advantage and punish the people who offended you.

    As far as jokes go, that was in response to the argument that funerals must be solemn. Clearly they do not have to be if that is the wish of the deceased or the family.

    With regards to political statements, I think you would be more receptive if the message being conveyed during the funeral was something you agreed with. I alluded to an example about condemning corrupt cops. It is very telling that you have not disagreed with that example.
    01-14-2015 05:44 PM
  12. anon8126715's Avatar
    Again, it was a silent and peaceful demonstration for their lack of support of the mayor. He ran a campaign vilifying the NYPD, he allowed the protests to get out of hand, and when two cops were assassinated he turtled away. The demonstration was to show solidarity among themselves and those two officers who lost their life. IMHO anyone who uses a derogatory term calling cops "pigs" shows me they have an utter disregard and disrespect for what they do and the sacrifice they make. It would be akin to me calling a group of people whatever racist or prejudicial name I felt like because I disagree with them. You think these guys chose that career because getting a badge and a gun would be cool? Without them where do you think our civilization would be?

    Many police departments around the nation have altered how they patrol. No more single man squad cars, no more responding to calls without at least 4 officers. Their force in numbers has been contracted as a result of the attacks on the NYPD. Furthermore I highly doubt you will see anyone get laid off given arrests are down, a city like NY or any urban city for that matter is best policed through strength in numbers. Pro-active policing and having a "presence". Unless you want NY to go back to the days of Ed Koch.
    The ones that chose to protest at a funeral instead of honor their fallen brother, yes I call them pigs. As far as his campaign was concerned, you can claim he was vilifying the NYPD, I claim he was vilifying the practice of ILLEGALLY SEARCHING people. The bottom line is you go to a funeral to pay your respects, not to make a political statement. When did a funeral become an opportunity to voice anything but grief for the person lost? There's a time to mourn and a time to protest. These pigs were disrespectful.

    How many police officers have been fired as a direct result from turning their backs on Mayor de Blasio?
    I doubt any. Facing the mayor isn't what I was referencing when I said they should be fired. I was talking about reports that cops were deliberately not citing anyone that was breaking the law nor making arrests.
    GadgetGator and A895 like this.
    01-14-2015 06:38 PM
  13. anon8126715's Avatar
    People will respect those who have earned their respect at a place and time of their choosing. Respect that is forced instead of given freely is not true respect.
    No one is forcing anyone to go to someone's funeral (at least in this country). I'm not sure where anyone said they were being forced to attend. A funeral is meant for friends, families, and colleagues to go to "PAY THEIR RESPECTS" to the deceased.

    When my grandfather died over 20 years ago, he was to be buried in the small town where he was from. During the funeral procession I was extremely touched when I saw an old man walking (who was not a part of our party) stop, remove his hat, and slowly bow his head as we drove past. You don't attend a funeral of someone that you don't respect unless you're extremely ill mannered. You simply do not show up.
    GadgetGator and A895 like this.
    01-14-2015 06:46 PM
  14. GadgetGator's Avatar
    People will respect those who have earned their respect at a place and time of their choosing. Respect that is forced instead of given freely is not true respect.

    Funerals can be solemn, but they don't have to be. Joan Rivers wanted a funeral full of laughs. Howard Stern opened her funeral by saying, "Joan Rivers' only problem was that she had a dry [name of a female body part]." (You can use Google if you really want to know what Stern actually said.)

    Funerals can also be a venue for protests. I wouldn't be surprised if someone yelled at Eric Garner's funeral and said that the cops murdered him in cold blood by choking him to death. You'd probably get a lot of people at the funeral to agree (vocally and loudly) with that.

    I'm sure the police officers attending the funerals of Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu wanted to speak their mind and voice their displeasure at Mayor de Blasio, but they had the frame of mind to bite their tongue and turn around instead of saying something.
    No. You're wrong. Funerals are not a proper place for protest. I'll go to my own grave thinking that.

    There is a time and place for everything. Protesting here was neither of those.

    Posted via Android Central App
    A895 and Scott7217 like this.
    01-14-2015 07:20 PM
  15. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I've been reading this back and forth about protesting at the funerals and I'm siding with those I normally disagree with on here with this. Regardless of whatever rights and privileges may allow a protest at a funeral, that's just not the respectful thing to do. It's a place to put differences aside and respect the deceased and their families.
    A895, GadgetGator and Scott7217 like this.
    01-14-2015 09:37 PM
  16. Scott7217's Avatar
    IMHO anyone who uses a derogatory term calling cops "pigs" shows me they have an utter disregard and disrespect for what they do and the sacrifice they make.
    I'm all in favor of reappropriating the term to mean:

    Principles
    Integrity
    Guts

    If you take the first letter of each word, you spell PIG.
    01-14-2015 11:47 PM
  17. Scott7217's Avatar
    I doubt any. Facing the mayor isn't what I was referencing when I said they should be fired.
    However, you replied to my post that was discussing the issue of the police officers turning their backs on Mayor de Blasio.

    I found it very interesting that NYPD Commissioner William Bratton inserted the following sentence in his statement before the funeral of Officer Wenjian Liu:

    "I issue no mandates, and I make no threats of discipline."
    01-15-2015 12:11 AM
  18. Scott7217's Avatar
    No. You're wrong. Funerals are not a proper place for protest. I'll go to my own grave thinking that.

    There is a time and place for everything. Protesting here was neither of those.
    May you live a long, healthy life without any problems to burden you.

    We'll simply have to disagree on whether it is proper to protest at a funeral. For now, I am satisfied that NYPD Commissioner William Bratton said that he will not discipline the police officers.
    01-15-2015 12:24 AM
  19. SteveISU's Avatar
    You seem more then willing to define what is now acceptable at a funeral and assume who was not offended. Again, just because someone doesn't make a public statement doesn't mean they weren't. And comparing a song to some political action is rather ridiculous. Not even close to being the same.

    But worse, you are also comparing an action taken by a family member without asking, vs a complete stranger doing something without asking. Do you think those things are the same? Total false equivalency.

    Posted via Android Central App
    Once again, outside of Bratton and deBlasio point to me anyone who attended the service who's made a fuss. Believe me, it's NY, the media capital of the world. Surely the Post or the Times could have found an attendee who wanted to get their 15 minutes and offer commentary on the NYPD's actions. We don't know if the cops asked the widow if it was OK and she gave the thumbs up. The only ones making a stink are those from the outside looking in which means next too nothing.
    01-15-2015 09:38 AM
  20. anon8126715's Avatar
    However, you replied to my post that was discussing the issue of the police officers turning their backs on Mayor de Blasio.

    I found it very interesting that NYPD Commissioner William Bratton inserted the following sentence in his statement before the funeral of Officer Wenjian Liu:

    "I issue no mandates, and I make no threats of discipline."
    Are you referring to this?

    In most places of employment, if you show disrespect to your boss, you lose your job.

    What is preventing the mayor from firing these cops?
    He technically isn't their direct superior, and I'm sure there's a police association that would argue against them being released. I think the Mayor may be able to replace the Police Chief with someone that could clean up the department, but per my post above I think it is going to take a lot of resources to clean up our police force and bring it back in line with what it means to live in a free society and not in a police state.
    Like I said, I wasn't referring to that action. I was referring to the fact that officers are issuing less tickets and less arrests in a protest of the Mayor. I have a bigger issue with someone not doing their job than respecting their superiors. As a matter of fact, if you're performing your duties why do you have to show someone respect more than what's required as a part of your job? If a superior of mine directs me to report to a meeting, I go to that meeting, if he tells me that I have to wear green to that meeting because it's his favorite color, then I'll turn my back at him and he can kiss the darkest part of that area.....
    A895 likes this.
    01-15-2015 06:20 PM
  21. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Once again, outside of Bratton and deBlasio point to me anyone who attended the service who's made a fuss. Believe me, it's NY, the media capital of the world. Surely the Post or the Times could have found an attendee who wanted to get their 15 minutes and offer commentary on the NYPD's actions. We don't know if the cops asked the widow if it was OK and she gave the thumbs up. The only ones making a stink are those from the outside looking in which means next too nothing.
    So, if the widows did complain, would that change your mind and opinion?

    Posted via Android Central App
    A895 likes this.
    01-16-2015 12:32 AM
  22. SteveISU's Avatar
    So, if the widows did complain, would that change your mind and opinion?

    Posted via Android Central App
    Sure, if there is a direct quote from the widow. Not some "reports" from unidentified sources on twitter. I can make any claim on twitter.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    01-16-2015 10:15 AM
  23. Scott7217's Avatar
    Are you referring to this?
    I was referencing post #41 (written on 12/23/14) in this thread, where you said, "I thought it was an absolute disgrace when the NY cops turned their backs on their mayor."

    As NYPD Commissioner William Bratton has stated, he will not be disciplining any officers for turning their backs on Mayor de Blasio during the funerals of Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu.

    Now, the issue about police officers issuing fewer tickets and making fewer arrests does not fall under Bratton's statement, so these officers can be disciplined.

    If the NYPD internal affairs department does an investigation and finds anyone who did not perform their duty, the negligent officers will be disciplined according to department standards.
    01-16-2015 02:33 PM
  24. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Sure, if there is a direct quote from the widow. Not some "reports" from unidentified sources on twitter. I can make any claim on twitter.
    So something is "wrong" if a widow complains publicly, but if they don't it's okay?

    Interesting. To me wrong is wrong, not conditional. But clearly you have different standards of both police and funerals than I do. I expect better from both.

    Posted via Android Central App
    A895 likes this.
    01-16-2015 07:06 PM
  25. anon8126715's Avatar
    I was referencing post #41 (written on 12/23/14) in this thread, where you said, "I thought it was an absolute disgrace when the NY cops turned their backs on their mayor."

    As NYPD Commissioner William Bratton has stated, he will not be disciplining any officers for turning their backs on Mayor de Blasio during the funerals of Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu.

    Now, the issue about police officers issuing fewer tickets and making fewer arrests does not fall under Bratton's statement, so these officers can be disciplined.

    If the NYPD internal affairs department does an investigation and finds anyone who did not perform their duty, the negligent officers will be disciplined according to department standards.
    Being disgraceful doesn't automatically mean termination of employment. There are different levels of being insubordinate. I attended a meeting at work where one of the attendees was busy doing something other than being attentive. It was disrespectful to the meeting facilitator. Did the guy get fired? No, but he was called out by the presenter.

    If I was the mayor, I would've directed EVERYONE's attention in the direction that these officers were facing. I would've said, "Lets all face the same direction, not because I want the rest of the police force to take the same political stance as these officers, but because I want a police force that's united and together regardless of views. Once we're all on the same page, then we can all face the same direction, forward". This would've done a couple of thinks, it would've told these police officers that the mayor is aware of their actions, and it would've let them known that he's not above discussing issues within the force, but that he wanted to send a message that there's a time and place to show dissidence among the rank and file and a funeral is not that venue.
    GadgetGator likes this.
    01-17-2015 10:06 PM
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