05-10-2015 02:09 PM
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  1. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Instead, now you complain here about unions.
    Only the forced ones.
    04-16-2015 02:21 PM
  2. anon8126715's Avatar
    You misread what I wrote. I specifically said "...when dealing business with them." I used to work there as well in the stores, so I know what kind of things are said amongst employees during break time. But the attitude on break is much different than the attitude when on the clock and dealing with others.

    And I didn't mind my time at Wal-Mart either. It was just a school time job, not meant to be a career, and I valued it as such. I didn't expect to make top dollar, but I also didn't stay a cashier long either. I moved to different areas that I liked better, sometimes getting raises along with the new position. I dealt with those long hours at the register, but instead of complaining about it, I worked my way into better positions and eventually left the company when ready to move on to bigger and better things.
    It's still an oppressive work environment.
    04-16-2015 08:12 PM
  3. Mooncatt's Avatar
    It's still an oppressive work environment.
    And we both left for better opportunities. Amazing how the market works, isn't it. :sly:
    04-16-2015 08:19 PM
  4. GadgetGator's Avatar
    And we both left for better opportunities. Amazing how the market works, isn't it. :sly:
    That same principle works when you are unhappy about other things....like a union shop for instance!
    04-16-2015 09:10 PM
  5. NoYankees44's Avatar
    What everyone always ignores when talking about unions and labor in general is the market value of labor. The US has extremely high labor costs compared to the rest of the world (minus Europe maybe), so we are not competitive on the low skill labor markets. Unions attempt to fight this problem, but it only seem to accentuate it.

    Companies owe us nothing. If they can more efficiently operate out of Mexico or China, then they should. And it is quite frankly our own fault if they can. We must make our country and work force more competitive again in the global market place if we want to keep the status of largest and most influential economy in the world.

    We need more highly trained workers that can perform more valuable jobs and have cheaper automation fill in the gap.

    Sent from my XT1096
    04-17-2015 11:46 AM
  6. GadgetGator's Avatar
    What everyone always ignores when talking about unions and labor in general is the market value of labor. The US has extremely high labor costs compared to the rest of the world (minus Europe maybe), so we are not competitive on the low skill labor markets. Unions attempt to fight this problem, but it only seem to accentuate it.

    Companies owe us nothing. If they can more efficiently operate out of Mexico or China, then they should. And it is quite frankly our own fault if they can. We must make our country and work force more competitive again in the global market place if we want to keep the status of largest and most influential economy in the world.

    We need more highly trained workers that can perform more valuable jobs and have cheaper automation fill in the gap.

    Sent from my XT1096
    What do you suggest we do with the people who aren't cut out for "more valuable jobs" and who you have now replaced with automation?
    04-17-2015 02:30 PM
  7. NoYankees44's Avatar
    What do you suggest we do with the people who aren't cut out for "more valuable jobs" and who you have now replaced with automation?
    Of course there will a generational time period to transition many of the current workers out of the the force and make the necessary changes to production processes, but other than that, everyone is free to compete for low skilled labor jobs with people willing to work for a dollar an hour in Mexico.

    Just because automation happens does not necessarily mean there is a net loss in jobs. The equipment has to be designed, built, delivered, installed, run, and maintained by people that have to work with other people that decide what the specifications of said equipment is and how it works with existing equipment in a facility.

    The difference is that all these jobs require education and training. Just like at one time a high school education and the ability to read was not required for the bulk of jobs as it is now, this training will be new basic requirements for all workers. We must continue to raise the bar faster than the rest of the world or we will be forced to compete with workers that are willing to work for much less.

    Even if there is a net loss on jobs, the jobs are now more valuable and easier to support a family off of, so fewer will have to work to maintain the same quality of life.

    Sent from my XT1096
    04-17-2015 04:07 PM
  8. anon8126715's Avatar
    What everyone always ignores when talking about unions and labor in general is the market value of labor. The US has extremely high labor costs compared to the rest of the world (minus Europe maybe), so we are not competitive on the low skill labor markets. Unions attempt to fight this problem, but it only seem to accentuate it.

    Companies owe us nothing. If they can more efficiently operate out of Mexico or China, then they should. And it is quite frankly our own fault if they can. We must make our country and work force more competitive again in the global market place if we want to keep the status of largest and most influential economy in the world.

    We need more highly trained workers that can perform more valuable jobs and have cheaper automation fill in the gap.

    Sent from my XT1096

    Actually, that's where the disconnect lies. Companies actually DO owe us. We aren't just their employees, we are also their customers and consumers. If Company A wants to sell its products and services to a U.S. market yet hire cheap oppressive labor, that's their prerogative. It's also my choice to decide if I want my hard earned money to go towards a company that over-compensates its CEO and board of directors and refuses to take care of its employees. That iPhone, Android, computer and/or other device we're using to convey messages back and forth, that's a good example of a U.S./global company that has enough power to secure cheap labor from places where oppressive work conditions exist. Is it no wonder that a lot of companies get cheap labor from places like China and India?

    The problem with the U.S. labor force isn't just about how much money a person expects to make, but how much that person needs to make in order to eek out a living in this country. I guarantee you the cost of living in the U.S. is much more expensive than it is in India or China. You can look at how living in different states affect cost of labor as an example. Look at how much more people have to make living in San Francisco, CA than they would if they lived in Memphis TN. The median household income in Memphis is $36,817, by contrast in San Francisco it's $75,604. Should San Francisco start trying to suppress wages to get in line with the wages in Memphis? Could they start forcing companies to start charging less money to help lower the cost of living?
    04-18-2015 02:24 AM
  9. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Actually, that's where the disconnect lies. Companies actually DO owe us. We aren't just their employees, we are also their customers and consumers. If Company A wants to sell its products and services to a U.S. market yet hire cheap oppressive labor, that's their prerogative. It's also my choice to decide if I want my hard earned money to go towards a company that over-compensates its CEO and board of directors and refuses to take care of its employees. That iPhone, Android, computer and/or other device we're using to convey messages back and forth, that's a good example of a U.S./global company that has enough power to secure cheap labor from places where oppressive work conditions exist. Is it no wonder that a lot of companies get cheap labor from places like China and India?

    The problem with the U.S. labor force isn't just about how much money a person expects to make, but how much that person needs to make in order to eek out a living in this country. I guarantee you the cost of living in the U.S. is much more expensive than it is in India or China. You can look at how living in different states affect cost of labor as an example. Look at how much more people have to make living in San Francisco, CA than they would if they lived in Memphis TN. The median household income in Memphis is $36,817, by contrast in San Francisco it's $75,604. Should San Francisco start trying to suppress wages to get in line with the wages in Memphis? Could they start forcing companies to start charging less money to help lower the cost of living?
    That's not the problem with cost of living in places like SF or NYC. the issue is supply and demand of scarce land and living space. It makes renting a place to live or a place to open a business much higher.
    04-18-2015 04:09 PM
  10. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Of course there will a generational time period to transition many of the current workers out of the the force and make the necessary changes to production processes, but other than that, everyone is free to compete for low skilled labor jobs with people willing to work for a dollar an hour in Mexico.

    Just because automation happens does not necessarily mean there is a net loss in jobs. The equipment has to be designed, built, delivered, installed, run, and maintained by people that have to work with other people that decide what the specifications of said equipment is and how it works with existing equipment in a facility.

    The difference is that all these jobs require education and training. Just like at one time a high school education and the ability to read was not required for the bulk of jobs as it is now, this training will be new basic requirements for all workers. We must continue to raise the bar faster than the rest of the world or we will be forced to compete with workers that are willing to work for much less.

    Even if there is a net loss on jobs, the jobs are now more valuable and easier to support a family off of, so fewer will have to work to maintain the same quality of life.

    Sent from my XT1096
    I think you are underestimating the number of jobs needed to sustain everyone and overestimating the number of higher skilled jobs that would be needed under your scenario. You still haven't addressed the people that are not cut out for higher jobs either. You've replaced their menial jobs with automation. Great! Only for a variety of reasons, they don't have the ability for higher skilled jobs. (There's a reason they were in such jobs to begin with!). So now how do all these people, and there are many, make ends meet?

    You seem to think everyone can just move on up to a higher skilled job. That simply isn't reality.
    04-18-2015 04:17 PM
  11. NoYankees44's Avatar
    I think you are underestimating the number of jobs needed to sustain everyone and overestimating the number of higher skilled jobs that would be needed under your scenario. You still haven't addressed the people that are not cut out for higher jobs either. You've replaced their menial jobs with automation. Great! Only for a variety of reasons, they don't have the ability for higher skilled jobs. (There's a reason they were in such jobs to begin with!). So now how do all these people, and there are many, make ends meet?

    You seem to think everyone can just move on up to a higher skilled job. That simply isn't reality.
    There will always be a fairly significant number of low skilled jobs, but the point is to not make those jobs the majority of our work force. Those jobs will be for the young that only support themselves(and have not had a chance for higher level training) and for others that truly are not capable of higher skill level positions.

    And I don't buy that the millions and millions of of Americans in low skilled jobs are not capable of better. There was a time when you would have been laughed out of town for suggesting that our literacy rate is as high as it is today. People rise to requirements and expectations. VERY few people are not capable of doing more than their current job. I do not care what their job is. People just need the opportunity and drive to rise to the occasion.

    Sent from my XT1096
    04-18-2015 05:21 PM
  12. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Actually, that's where the disconnect lies. Companies actually DO owe us. We aren't just their employees, we are also their customers and consumers. If Company A wants to sell its products and services to a U.S. market yet hire cheap oppressive labor, that's their prerogative. It's also my choice to decide if I want my hard earned money to go towards a company that over-compensates its CEO and board of directors and refuses to take care of its employees. That iPhone, Android, computer and/or other device we're using to convey messages back and forth, that's a good example of a U.S./global company that has enough power to secure cheap labor from places where oppressive work conditions exist. Is it no wonder that a lot of companies get cheap labor from places like China and India?

    The problem with the U.S. labor force isn't just about how much money a person expects to make, but how much that person needs to make in order to eek out a living in this country. I guarantee you the cost of living in the U.S. is much more expensive than it is in India or China. You can look at how living in different states affect cost of labor as an example. Look at how much more people have to make living in San Francisco, CA than they would if they lived in Memphis TN. The median household income in Memphis is $36,817, by contrast in San Francisco it's $75,604. Should San Francisco start trying to suppress wages to get in line with the wages in Memphis? Could they start forcing companies to start charging less money to help lower the cost of living?
    It is your choice. That is part of the beauty of a free market.

    But there are now other consumers around the world just like there are other workers. If we do not continue to provide more skilled and valuable labor than the rest of the world, we will fall behind the rest of the world.

    We must raise the bar. A high school education is not enough anymore. Everyone must have further education or training if they want to be able to live comfortably. When you race to the bottom, you usually find. Our society must instead race to the top.

    Sent from my XT1096
    04-18-2015 05:39 PM
  13. anon8126715's Avatar
    That's not the problem with cost of living in places like SF or NYC. the issue is supply and demand of scarce land and living space. It makes renting a place to live or a place to open a business much higher.
    But if we're talking about being "competitive" as someone else mentioned, why not put the onus on the housing and other services in NYC and SF to lower the cost? My point is that it's not like someone can just flip a switch and say "there, our labor costs are competitive".
    04-18-2015 07:06 PM
  14. asanatheist's Avatar
    It seems to me some people are upset they don't get freedom to choose union or non union work place.
    First of all, you have no freedoms just privileges in the USA. They can be revoked.

    Lastly freedom doesn't free you from the consequences, and I am not just talking about legal consequences or moral consequences. I am talking about reality. We do not live in a infinite resource world.
    04-18-2015 08:55 PM
  15. Mooncatt's Avatar
    But if we're talking about being "competitive" as someone else mentioned, why not put the onus on the housing and other services in NYC and SF to lower the cost? My point is that it's not like someone can just flip a switch and say "there, our labor costs are competitive".
    Capitalism. If places like NYC and SF weren't such desirable places to live, then there wouldn't be so many people willing to pay so much to live there. But that's not the only thing. Those are some of the highest taxed and regulated (especially CARB) places to live and work, so that also causes the need for higher wages just so people can get by. It also causes the cost of compliance to be a lot higher, which also translates into higher product costs.

    It's reasons like that where you see businesses starting to migrate out of places like California and into more business friendly areas. It helps them remain competitive, especially in a world market.
    04-18-2015 10:27 PM
  16. GadgetGator's Avatar
    There will always be a fairly significant number of low skilled jobs, but the point is to not make those jobs the majority of our work force. Those jobs will be for the young that only support themselves(and have not had a chance for higher level training) and for others that truly are not capable of higher skill level positions.

    And I don't buy that the millions and millions of of Americans in low skilled jobs are not capable of better. There was a time when you would have been laughed out of town for suggesting that our literacy rate is as high as it is today. People rise to requirements and expectations. VERY few people are not capable of doing more than their current job. I do not care what their job is. People just need the opportunity and drive to rise to the occasion.

    Sent from my XT1096
    Clearly you have met the people I have. Seriously I don't think you truly understand the monumental change you are proposing when you say everyone should be college educated.

    Also with all the automation you are proposing I don't know how you think there would still be a "fairly significant" number of low skilled jobs. How? At some point automation will replace all of that.
    04-19-2015 12:29 AM
  17. GadgetGator's Avatar
    But if we're talking about being "competitive" as someone else mentioned, why not put the onus on the housing and other services in NYC and SF to lower the cost? My point is that it's not like someone can just flip a switch and say "there, our labor costs are competitive".
    You can't just say "hey you landlords, lower the cost". If more people are in the market now for the same scarce home and business space, then you will have waiting list years long just to rent an apartment or lease a yogurt shop. You'll solve one problem and create another.
    04-19-2015 12:37 AM
  18. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Clearly you have met the people I have. Seriously I don't think you truly understand the monumental change you are proposing when you say everyone should be college educated.

    Also with all the automation you are proposing I don't know how you think there would still be a "fairly significant" number of low skilled jobs. How? At some point automation will replace all of that.
    Not necessarily college, but some sort of further education or training after high school. It may be on the on the job of off. The point is people should not expect to perform a job that they can be trained for in a couple of weeks and support their family comfortably. People will need "careers" instead of "jobs".

    And I must just have a much higher opinion of average Americans. People may be born ignorant, but they are taught to be stupid.

    There are all kinds of jobs that will need human hands. Retail, custodial, cooking fast food, quality assurance in manufacturing, small jobs, etc. Etc. Etc.

    Sent from my XT1096
    04-19-2015 10:28 AM
  19. anon8126715's Avatar
    Capitalism. If places like NYC and SF weren't such desirable places to live, then there wouldn't be so many people willing to pay so much to live there. But that's not the only thing. Those are some of the highest taxed and regulated (especially CARB) places to live and work, so that also causes the need for higher wages just so people can get by. It also causes the cost of compliance to be a lot higher, which also translates into higher product costs.

    It's reasons like that where you see businesses starting to migrate out of places like California and into more business friendly areas. It helps them remain competitive, especially in a world market.
    Umm, actually the cost of living at both those places was high even before CARB came around. Nice attempt at pointing the finger at regulatory laws though.

    The problem is the wealth gap and is exactly why I have no problems with the Estate Tax (although I think it should be made a little more stringent). We have all this wealth that's amassing at the top off of the backs of the working class. It's only a matter of time before it collapses on itself. The question is do the top earners try to correct this issue or will they just continue to siphon wealth?

    Why is it that Sam's Club can't afford to pay its employees what Costco pays its employees? It's not a matter of size, it's not a business model issue, they both sell warehouse sized items to paying members. Do you suppose it's because the Walmart family would rather pay its executives inflated salaries for sitting at a desk putting in 20-25 hours a week instead of investing that money in its workforce?

    All things being equal, I'd rather work for a company that's going to be fair to its employees, that's going to value hard work over office politics. But it's just that "All Things Being Equal", which in most environments, it's anything BUT equal.
    04-19-2015 11:37 AM
  20. anon8126715's Avatar
    You can't just say "hey you landlords, lower the cost". If more people are in the market now for the same scarce home and business space, then you will have waiting list years long just to rent an apartment or lease a yogurt shop. You'll solve one problem and create another.
    That's my point, I guess the implied sarcasm wasn't noted. The cost of U.S. labor is high for all those reasons, it's not that the U.S. worker is greedy or lazy. It's that they would like to live modestly comfortable.

    I have discussions with a lot of my friends at work about the cars we see outside in the parking lot. The Lamborghinis, Ferraris, the Telsa exotic-hybrids, or the high end Porsches, when the company lays off a large portion of its workforce, you can't help wonder if the guys (I say guys because one, I doubt a woman would be given an opportunity in such a male dominant role, and 2 exotic cars are more of a male-peacock-feather thing) driving these cars feel any of the effects of a company trying to tighten its belt. The one thing a union would definitely see to is that cuts be made ACROSS THE BOARD, and not just eliminating a few roles so that the CEO could buy himself another high end Italian car.
    04-19-2015 11:45 AM
  21. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Umm, actually the cost of living at both those places was high even before CARB came around. Nice attempt at pointing the finger at regulatory laws though.
    I didn't say government was the only reason, I said it is an additional reason the cost of living was so high.
    04-19-2015 12:50 PM
  22. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Not necessarily college, but some sort of further education or training after high school. It may be on the on the job of off. The point is people should not expect to perform a job that they can be trained for in a couple of weeks and support their family comfortably. People will need "careers" instead of "jobs".

    And I must just have a much higher opinion of average Americans. People may be born ignorant, but they are taught to be stupid.

    There are all kinds of jobs that will need human hands. Retail, custodial, cooking fast food, quality assurance in manufacturing, small jobs, etc. Etc. Etc.

    Sent from my XT1096
    Retail? Maybe. But it's taken a hit over the years thanks to the internet. There are thousands of jobs that have been lost. Tower Records, Warehouse Records, CompUSA, Good Guys, Circuit City, numerous bookstores...the list is long and continues to grow. Will Radio Shack and Best Buy survive?

    Custodial? That will be done by robots at some point.

    Cooking? Not sure the majority of that won't ultimately be automated as well.

    QA. Hmmm, seems like not enough of that is being done these days. But yes, I would think some, but not all will remain a human task.

    Small jobs? Like what? Painting? That will be automated too eventually. All it's going to take is technology to evolve some more.

    Will there be jobs for humans? Yes. But will there be ENOUGH? That is the question. A question we are already grappling with.
    04-19-2015 01:09 PM
  23. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Retail? Maybe. But it's taken a hit over the years thanks to the internet. There are thousands of jobs that have been lost. Tower Records, Warehouse Records, CompUSA, Good Guys, Circuit City, numerous bookstores...the list is long and continues to grow. Will Radio Shack and Best Buy survive?

    Custodial? That will be done by robots at some point.

    Cooking? Not sure the majority of that won't ultimately be automated as well.

    QA. Hmmm, seems like not enough of that is being done these days. But yes, I would think some, but not all will remain a human task.

    Small jobs? Like what? Painting? That will be automated too eventually. All it's going to take is technology to evolve some more.

    Will there be jobs for humans? Yes. But will there be ENOUGH? That is the question. A question we are already grappling with.
    I actually hesitated to put retail...

    We are 100 years at least from robots being cost effective in the vast majority of roles like being a custodian. While we have much of the required technology now to make it happen, the cost to implement and maintain is outrageous. Robots are still very stupid creatures when you get down to it. It requires very intelligent people to make the robots look(and in some cases be) intelligent.

    The point I am making is that the world is not segregated like it used to be. Labor no longer needs to be local and there are other areas of the world that can readily compete with our work force. We must find ways to make our workers and jobs more valuable. Right now low skill labor is no more valuable than that of Mexico or China, but we demand a higher price. This cannot be sustained long term. We must raise expectations.

    Sent from my XT1096
    04-19-2015 01:25 PM
  24. anon8126715's Avatar
    It is your choice. That is part of the beauty of a free market.

    But there are now other consumers around the world just like there are other workers. If we do not continue to provide more skilled and valuable labor than the rest of the world, we will fall behind the rest of the world.

    We must raise the bar. A high school education is not enough anymore. Everyone must have further education or training if they want to be able to live comfortably. When you race to the bottom, you usually find. Our society must instead race to the top.

    Sent from my XT1096
    I live in an industry where they are ACTIVELY bringing in cheap Indian labor to undercut American labor at pennies on the dollar. I work with MANY Indian programmers and App developers that know just enough to write a few lines of code and do minimal work. They don't have ANY skill set other than sitting at a computer and copying and pasting lines of code.

    What gets me is that it's just like the Tech Support industry was a few years ago, companies like Dell thought they could outsource their jobs to India and consumers responded. The way these Tech Support centers are set up is a drone (Indian named "Bob") will answer your call and will read from a script. "Please turn your device off and back on" is what these call centers heavily rely on. End users eventually became frustrated and Dell lost some of its market share. The phrase "You get what you pay for" comes to mind. There are plenty of skilled American workers, more than in other countries. The problem is that companies don't want to pay a premium for that skill. Why then should someone pay a large amount of money for a technical degree when employers don't want to pay the premium?
    04-19-2015 05:10 PM
  25. NoYankees44's Avatar
    I live in an industry where they are ACTIVELY bringing in cheap Indian labor to undercut American labor at pennies on the dollar. I work with MANY Indian programmers and App developers that know just enough to write a few lines of code and do minimal work. They don't have ANY skill set other than sitting at a computer and copying and pasting lines of code.

    What gets me is that it's just like the Tech Support industry was a few years ago, companies like Dell thought they could outsource their jobs to India and consumers responded. The way these Tech Support centers are set up is a drone (Indian named "Bob") will answer your call and will read from a script. "Please turn your device off and back on" is what these call centers heavily rely on. End users eventually became frustrated and Dell lost some of its market share. The phrase "You get what you pay for" comes to mind. There are plenty of skilled American workers, more than in other countries. The problem is that companies don't want to pay a premium for that skill. Why then should someone pay a large amount of money for a technical degree when employers don't want to pay the premium?
    If a company can deal with the quality deficit when running such labor, then they can. I would be much more concerned with why someone can copy paste cookie cutter code and do a comparable job to what I went to college for.

    Computer science and similar degrees from my point of view have been a toilet in the last 10 years or so. I have known many to graduate with such degrees and have a hard time. It has gotten so bad that I have started advising those that want such degrees to go the extra mile and get a degree in computer engineering or to find another field.

    A degree or training guarantees nothing. What you do with the degree and how you differentiate yourself is what matters.

    Sent from my XT1096
    04-19-2015 05:21 PM
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