04-15-2015 10:25 PM
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  1. Scott7217's Avatar
    Aye. You just don't get it do you? Go back and read what the original issue was that caused these laws to be written. Hint: it wasn't to protect gay people.
    In Employment Division v. Smith, the Supreme Court ruled that members of a Native American Church could not use their religion as a defense to smoke peyote, an illegal substance.

    Therefore, Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY) introduced the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) to reinstate the balancing test from Sherbert v. Verner in response to Employment Division v. Smith.

    The balancing ("Sherbert") test has to determine:

    1. Whether the government has burdened an individual's freedom of religion
    2. If the government has introduced a burden, whether there is a compelling interest which would necessitate the introduction of such a burden and whether the government used the least restrictive method to impose that burden

    The next hurdle would come a few years later. The Supreme Court blocked applying the federal RFRA to state issues on the grounds of jurisdiction, as decided in City of Boerne v. Flores.

    This is why individual states had to pass their own RFRA laws, including Illinois, which Barack Obama voted for as a state senator.

    Indiana's SB 101 includes the provisions from the federal RFRA.

    The balancing test ensures that if someone were to try to use religion to discriminate against gay people, the compelling government interest to prevent discrimination would prevail.

    In other words, you cannot use the RFRA to discriminate against gay people.

    Here are the relevant citations:

    Employment Division, Department of Human Resources of Oregon v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990)

    Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, Pub. L. No. 103-141, 107 Stat. 1488 (November 16, 1993)
    42 U.S.C. § 2000bb through 42 U.S.C. § 2000bb-4

    Sherbert v. Verner, 374 U.S. 398 (1963)

    City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507 (1997)

    Illinois Rev. Stat. Ch. 775, §35/1, et seq.

    Indiana 2015 SB 101
    04-02-2015 12:37 AM
  2. Scott7217's Avatar
    You know, I have to ask this question here because it seems to come up over and over. Why do so many here assume innocent intentions when it comes to laws that affect gay people?
    The reason why is because ever since the RFRA came into existence, everyone who tried to use religion to discriminate against gay people has lost in court.
    04-02-2015 01:05 AM
  3. GadgetGator's Avatar
    In Employment Division v. Smith, the Supreme Court ruled that members of a Native American Church could not use their religion as a defense to smoke peyote, an illegal substance.

    Therefore, Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY) introduced the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) to reinstate the balancing test from Sherbert v. Verner in response to Employment Division v. Smith.

    The balancing ("Sherbert") test has to determine:

    1. Whether the government has burdened an individual's freedom of religion
    2. If the government has introduced a burden, whether there is a compelling interest which would necessitate the introduction of such a burden and whether the government used the least restrictive method to impose that burden

    The next hurdle would come a few years later. The Supreme Court blocked applying the federal RFRA to state issues on the grounds of jurisdiction, as decided in City of Boerne v. Flores.

    This is why individual states had to pass their own RFRA laws, including Illinois, which Barack Obama voted for as a state senator.

    Indiana's SB 101 includes the provisions from the federal RFRA.

    The balancing test ensures that if someone were to try to use religion to discriminate against gay people, the compelling government interest to prevent discrimination would prevail.

    In other words, you cannot use the RFRA to discriminate against gay people.

    Here are the relevant citations:

    Employment Division, Department of Human Resources of Oregon v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990)

    Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, Pub. L. No. 103-141, 107 Stat. 1488 (November 16, 1993)
    42 U.S.C. § 2000bb through 42 U.S.C. § 2000bb-4

    Sherbert v. Verner, 374 U.S. 398 (1963)

    City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507 (1997)

    Illinois Rev. Stat. Ch. 775, §35/1, et seq.

    Indiana 2015 SB 101
    And yet you haven't explained why anti gay groups are happy, why Pence had them lined up behind him, why he refuses to push for gay protection laws, why some anti gay businesses are feeling vindicated and why an amendment to protect city non discrimination measures was rejected..

    Seriously. How many pieces of the puzzle do you need spelled out?

    Posted via Android Central App
    A895 likes this.
    04-02-2015 01:19 AM
  4. GadgetGator's Avatar
    The reason why is because ever since the RFRA came into existence, everyone who tried to use religion to discriminate against gay people has lost in court.
    Both Indiana and the proposed Arkansas RFRA laws are different. Broader. You keep trying to draw a comparison as if they are exactly the same. That is erroneous and a flawed comparison. I don't know why you keep doing this, but you are simply just wrong.

    Posted via Android Central App
    04-02-2015 01:25 AM
  5. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Both Indiana and the proposed Arkansas RFRA laws are different. Broader. You keep trying to draw a comparison as if they are exactly the same. That is erroneous and a flawed comparison. I don't know why you keep doing this, but you are simply just wrong.
    Exactly how are the laws different? Other than different legalise wording, it looks like they say the same thing.

    And the laws aren't just about gay people. If that's what you think, fine, but people are afforded equal protection under the law. Or do you also think I should have been able to demand that Muslim from my earlier example to directly sell that bottle of alcohol to me, and sue if she refused?
    04-02-2015 01:03 PM
  6. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Exactly how are the laws different? Other than different legalise wording, it looks like they say the same thing.

    And the laws aren't just about gay people. If that's what you think, fine, but people are afforded equal protection under the law. Or do you also think I should have been able to demand that Muslim from my earlier example to directly sell that bottle of alcohol to me, and sue if she refused?
    You said it yourself. Similar but different wording equals different, does it not?

    Additionally, part of the problem stems from a lack of additional protections that the state lacks and has refused to put into place. This article outlines things pretty well:

    http://www.indystar.com/story/news/p...rfra/70729888/

    Now if this law is not aimed at gays, can anyone care to explain to me why gay protections are off the table and a bunch of anti-gay group leaders were standing behind pence at the signing? Anyone? Anyone at all?

    Posted via Android Central App
    A895 likes this.
    04-02-2015 02:25 PM
  7. Mooncatt's Avatar
    You said it yourself. Similar but different wording equals different, does it not?
    My point was like using two equations.

    2+4=6
    3X2=6

    Those are similar but different equations, but the result is the same. Such is the wording between the various RFRA laws.

    Additionally, part of the problem stems from a lack of additional protections that the state lacks and has refused to put into place.
    Which has now been addressed and the law amended.

    Though I don't know why anyone would want to force someone to go against their beliefs (religious or otherwise) just to accommodate them specifically against the provider's will. You're not going to get as good of service, so why not just do what most sensible people do and find a business willing to support you. In this day in age, market forces will start to drive out discriminating businesses and already do in many cases.

    And now with the pizza store case, it seems like the party of tolerance isn't so tolerant. They had to shut down in part because of death threats... And some people call conservatives the party of hate and bigotry. The left loves to say they are tolerant, but can be some of the most intolerant people when you say or do something they don't agree with.
    04-02-2015 06:41 PM
  8. GadgetGator's Avatar
    My point was like using two equations.

    2+4=6
    3X2=6

    Those are similar but different equations, but the result is the same. Such is the wording between the various RFRA laws.


    Which has now been addressed and the law amended.

    Though I don't know why anyone would want to force someone to go against their beliefs (religious or otherwise) just to accommodate them specifically against the provider's will. You're not going to get as good of service, so why not just do what most sensible people do and find a business willing to support you. In this day in age, market forces will start to drive out discriminating businesses and already do in many cases.

    And now with the pizza store case, it seems like the party of tolerance isn't so tolerant. They had to shut down in part because of death threats... And some people call conservatives the party of hate and bigotry. The left loves to say they are tolerant, but can be some of the most intolerant people when you say or do something they don't agree with.
    Riiiiight. As if no right winger has ever threatened anyone. They are saints and angels. Well except that whole abortion clinic bombing thing...no phone call required. They deliver the real thing instead!

    Not that I agree with calling in death threats mind you but nothing says intolerance like hating someone because your (insert your God's name here) tells you to.

    As for fixed, Angie's List doesn't agree and that's a republican run company. So much for the left wing bashing. If even some republicans don't think it's right still, you'll be hard pressed to convince me everything is a-okay. Especially when you thought it was okay to begin with!

    Posted via Android Central App
    04-02-2015 08:14 PM
  9. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Every side has their wackos, but the left are more often given a free pass to their intolerance and violent actions.

    And since when does the left care what evil corporations say? Oh wait, they are only evil when they don't agree with the left's views. It brings this to mind.
    04-02-2015 09:04 PM
  10. anon8126715's Avatar
    Riiiiight. As if no right winger has ever threatened anyone. They are saints and angels. Well except that whole abortion clinic bombing thing...no phone call required. They deliver the real thing instead!

    Not that I agree with calling in death threats mind you but nothing says intolerance like hating someone because your (insert your God's name here) tells you to.

    As for fixed, Angie's List doesn't agree and that's a republican run company. So much for the left wing bashing. If even some republicans don't think it's right still, you'll be hard pressed to convince me everything is a-okay. Especially when you thought it was okay to begin with!

    Posted via Android Central App
    Lets hope the GOP is so out of step that they lose their big business backing. Is the GOP losing Walmart? - CNN.com

    I've also been watching what the big banking industry has been trying to do to our political landscape. I think I'd much rather see Elizabeth Warren as the next President of the U.S. instead of Hillary, but I'll take Hillary over Jeb. Who the hell wants to be governed by someone named Jeb anyways? "As my vice president running mate, I've selected Jethro!" Elizabeth Warren tells Wall Street: 'Bring it on' - Mar. 30, 2015
    04-02-2015 09:17 PM
  11. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Every side has their wackos, but the left are more often given a free pass to their intolerance and violent actions.

    And since when does the left care what evil corporations say? Oh wait, they are only evil when they don't agree with the left's views. It brings this to mind.
    When someone on the right is complaining about anti-gay efforts and calling for change, I tend to notice. When they say protections for gay people don't go far enough, I tend to notice. Because those things don't happen very often.

    If someone on the right is saying those things, why wouldn't someone on the left think that too?

    Posted via Android Central App
    04-02-2015 09:20 PM
  12. anon8126715's Avatar
    Every side has their wackos, but the left are more often given a free pass to their intolerance and violent actions.

    And since when does the left care what evil corporations say? Oh wait, they are only evil when they don't agree with the left's views. It brings this to mind.
    The only thing I see in that video is that he makes a lot of generalizations but doesn't state ANY facts. You can flip that the other way as well, and not present facts, as long as your inflections sound "factual-ish". I didn't hear the part where he said "If you're white and carry a concealed firearm, you're pro 2nd amendment, if you're black and carry a concealed firearm, you're a thug"......
    04-02-2015 09:35 PM
  13. A895's Avatar
    Every side has their wackos, but the left are more often given a free pass to their intolerance and violent actions.
    The left is violent? Intolerant? Intolerant and violent towards who?

    Posted via the Android Central App
    04-03-2015 01:27 AM
  14. anon8126715's Avatar
    The left is violent? Intolerant? Intolerant and violent towards who?

    Posted via the Android Central App
    That's my initial reaction to the post, any data to support the claims? My guess is the "entitled class" think that they can pull the "because I said so" card.

    Look at all the voter ID laws, even though the DATA shows that there aren't many cases of Voter ID fraud, the GOP insists we need these laws. Obama's even talked about making voting mandatory. I can see the GOP trying to stymie that initiative. I say make it MANDATORY but also make it MANDATORY that EVERY FULL TIME WORKER get paid time off on that day, make it a national holiday. Of course the GOP would be against it because then special interest groups would lose power. What irritates me most about politicians that try to manipulate the vote is that they warp our democracy. If the MAJORITY scares you to the point that you have to manipulate the vote, guess what, you're working for special interest groups. Distorting of fact, casting away certain groups of people because their priorities aren't yours, that's the crumbling of our democracy.
    A895 likes this.
    04-03-2015 07:22 AM
  15. Mooncatt's Avatar
    The left is violent? Intolerant? Intolerant and violent towards who?
    I already mentioned one, the Memory's Pizza story. I've heard second hand that in one radio interview the owner said they don't do catering anyway. I didn't hear the actual interview, so I'll say if that's true, then it makes the death threats and fake ordering ever more immature. The Ferguson riots and freeway blocking protests being another recent example. I did a quick Google search for two phrases. "Violent liberal protests" and "Violent conservative protests". Sure it isn't scientific, but there was hardly any results directly related to conservative protests (and most were still related to liberal protests), but there were plenty hits on the liberal search. Or how about just simple disrespect, such as the occupy Wall St. camps that left the parks a wreck.
    What irritates me most about politicians that try to manipulate the vote is that they warp our democracy. If the MAJORITY scares you to the point that you have to manipulate the vote, guess what, you're working for special interest groups. Distorting of fact, casting away certain groups of people because their priorities aren't yours, that's the crumbling of our democracy.
    Such could be said about Obamacare, only they just voted it in despite the majority being against it.
    04-03-2015 08:21 AM
  16. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I didn't hear the part where he said "If you're white and carry a concealed firearm, you're pro 2nd amendment, if you're black and carry a concealed firearm, you're a thug"......
    Since no one on the right says that, I'm not surprised. If you legally obtain a gun and carry lawfully, there's no problem. If you buy a gun from an underground dealer and are using it to intimidate innocent people, you're a thug. Race has nothing to do with it.
    04-03-2015 01:41 PM
  17. Scott7217's Avatar
    Why do you think anti-gay groups are so excited about these laws? Why do you think Pence had anti-gay people lined up in a row behind him at the signing of this bill?
    It's no surprise to have religious people in support of a bill that supports freedom of religion.

    Like I said in a previous post, ever since RFRA came into existence, everyone who has tried to use religion to discriminate has lost in court.
    04-03-2015 02:51 PM
  18. Scott7217's Avatar
    Both Indiana and the proposed Arkansas RFRA laws are different. Broader.
    I would say Connecticut's RFRA is much broader given the provisions in Sec. 52-571b.

    Yet we don't see any outrage over Connecticut's law, nor do we see rampant use of Connecticut's RFRA to discriminate against people.

    Maybe people give Connecticut a pass because it's a blue state?
    04-03-2015 03:01 PM
  19. Scott7217's Avatar
    As for fixed, Angie's List doesn't agree and that's a republican run company.
    It's good to know that a Republican-run company like Angie's List is getting involved. I like the idea of Republicans and corporations fighting for gay rights.

    I'm still waiting for the NFL to give its opinion. In the past, I have proposed the idea of having the NFL impose a 10-year ban on hosting the Superbowl in any state that doesn't legalize gay marriage within 30 days.

    Hopefully the NFL will say something soon.
    04-03-2015 03:22 PM
  20. anon8126715's Avatar
    Such could be said about Obamacare, only they just voted it in despite the majority being against it.
    Everyone that I talk to that doesn't want Obamacare doesn't want it because there's no single payer option. Guess who's idea it was to eliminate the single payer option? What gets me is how single payer would be better for MILLIONS of people, but would hurt big business, yet you have every day joes that try to argue against it. It would eliminate an employer holding employees hostage. If I had a dollar for every co-worker I've worked with that said they hate their jobs but keep their job because of the benefits, I could probably already retire. It would also take that cost off of employers' hands which means they could use that money to hire more people, and lets not forget that it means less benefits need to be paid out to employees.

    Finally, if so many people were against Obamacare and the 2012 vote was a referendum ON Obamacare, why did Obama win? Seems like you can't really back up some of these claims you're making, can you?
    A895 likes this.
    04-03-2015 07:37 PM
  21. anon8126715's Avatar
    Since no one on the right says that, I'm not surprised.
    So everyone on the left says what you posted in the video, but turn the tables and no one on the right says what I posted? Again, no data to support what you claim is fact.....
    A895 likes this.
    04-03-2015 07:39 PM
  22. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Finally, if so many people were against Obamacare and the 2012 vote was a referendum ON Obamacare, why did Obama win? Seems like you can't really back up some of these claims you're making, can you?
    The mass media claims pretty much any election win as a "mandate," even if it's a narrow victory.
    So everyone on the left says what you posted in the video, but turn the tables and no one on the right says what I posted? Again, no data to support what you claim is fact.....
    When it comes to the media and even some statements by members here, yes. Like how Angie's List is being harolded as a great company because it sides with the left on the Indiana issue even though the left otherwise see's corporations as evil. And while a certain person here often refers to the right as the "party of hate and bigotry" here, some of the most hateful and insulting statements are all coming from the leftist viewpoints. The ones on the right try to keep rational and on point without resulting to name calling.
    04-03-2015 09:00 PM
  23. anon8126715's Avatar
    The mass media claims pretty much any election win as a "mandate," even if it's a narrow victory.
    Obama vows to implement health care law, as Romney vows repeal | Fox News

    When it comes to the media and even some statements by members here, yes. Like how Angie's List is being harolded as a great company because it sides with the left on the Indiana issue even though the left otherwise see's corporations as evil. And while a certain person here often refers to the right as the "party of hate and bigotry" here, some of the most hateful and insulting statements are all coming from the leftist viewpoints. The ones on the right try to keep rational and on point without resulting to name calling.
    The right hates Muslims (not all the right, but enough of the right) and think they're terrorists, they want to enact laws that prohibit same sex marriage, their idea of reforming immigration involves treating all illegal immigrants like evil law breakers, and they still want to cut taxes on the wealthy because they believe the wealthy will spend (they don't, they hoard their money) and trickle down economics will work. How exactly is any of that incorrect?
    A895 likes this.
    04-03-2015 09:20 PM
  24. GadgetGator's Avatar
    The mass media claims pretty much any election win as a "mandate," even if it's a narrow victory.

    When it comes to the media and even some statements by members here, yes. Like how Angie's List is being harolded as a great company because it sides with the left on the Indiana issue even though the left otherwise see's corporations as evil. And while a certain person here often refers to the right as the "party of hate and bigotry" here, some of the most hateful and insulting statements are all coming from the leftist viewpoints. The ones on the right try to keep rational and on point without resulting to name calling.
    The right is referred to as the party of hate and bigotry because Democrats aren't voting on other people's rights. Democrats aren't trying to tell you who you can marry. And discrimination against a group isn't in the Democratic party platform but you will find it in the GOP one. Which is why the GOP is referred to as a party of hate and discrimination they earned that label and have no one to blame for it but themselves.

    Posted via Android Central App
    A895 likes this.
    04-04-2015 03:07 AM
  25. GadgetGator's Avatar
    I already mentioned one, the Memory's Pizza story. I've heard second hand that in one radio interview the owner said they don't do catering anyway. I didn't hear the actual interview, so I'll say if that's true, then it makes the death threats and fake ordering ever more immature. The Ferguson riots and freeway blocking protests being another recent example. I did a quick Google search for two phrases. "Violent liberal protests" and "Violent conservative protests". Sure it isn't scientific, but there was hardly any results directly related to conservative protests (and most were still related to liberal protests), but there were plenty hits on the liberal search. Or how about just simple disrespect, such as the occupy Wall St. camps that left the parks a wreck.

    Such could be said about Obamacare, only they just voted it in despite the majority being against it.
    Wait......
    Did you just make the claim that blocking a freeway is "violent"?

    No.wonder we don't see eye to eye.

    Posted via Android Central App
    A895 likes this.
    04-04-2015 03:14 AM
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