04-04-2016 07:44 AM
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  1. Scott7217's Avatar
    The previous post from TXGTOU pointed out the negative influence of culture, specifically from hip hop.

    I have no problem disagreeing with Oprah Winfrey's assessment. The kids in South Africa probably aren't bombarded with the commercialized images of hip hop culture the way U.S. kids are.
    Another forum member, raf66, talked about the necessity of changing the culture of the inner cities.

    This is a culture thing. And until that culture makes a decision to change from within, they're going to get the government they deserve.
    Perhaps changing culture is the solution to improving society. The idea is certainly intriguing.
    05-08-2015 11:16 PM
  2. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Perhaps changing culture is the solution to improving society. The idea is certainly intriguing.
    It's an idea that's been talked about for years, maybe decades. Even the whole "Back in my day, these young whippersnappers respected their elders" (As said in my most raspy cranky old man choice) lines invoke similar ideals. I think a large part of the problem is not only trying to push back against the behemoth that is mass marketed pop culture media, but it's also human nature to ignore, if not resent, outside forces trying to change them. So while we can debate this all day online, the real changes have to come from the communities affected. The police can go through all the training in the world and government can hand out money like candy, but problems will still persist as long as the citizens don't respect the cops and don't take it upon themselves to improve their own situation.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    05-09-2015 07:26 AM
  3. A895's Avatar
    The ones brought up here, like everyone else.


    The cops didn't call them big men, the 911 caller did. No one other than you called them thugs. I'll refer you back to my last post on the absurdity of the code talk idea.


    Zimmerman wasn't a trained cop, so not applicable to these comparisons.


    Proven over and over to have charged and attempted to go after the officer's gun.

    Pulled a realistic looking gun on people and attempted to on the cops.



    None of them were ever referred to as thugs or any other slur until AFTER the fact by other people not involved in the cases, and thus has no bearing on how the officers (and Zimmerman, if you wish to include him anyway) were handling the situations at the time.
    I was not speaking in police brutality exclusively. I am talking about how coos, media and even people all called all 3 young men thugs. When none of them even are thugs. Even Eric Garners case, they tried to say because he was big they had to get rough. No one like them deserve to be called names like that when they are dead. I don't care what anyone thinks "thug" shouldn't be thrown at anyone like any of them. Or even look a Fox News and CNN coverage of Baltimore calling everyone that was black a thug.

    "Thug" in context to any of those situations have negative connotations. You can see that at least.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    05-09-2015 08:42 AM
  4. A895's Avatar
    The previous post from TXGTOU pointed out the negative influence of culture, specifically from hip hop.



    Another forum member, raf66, talked about the necessity of changing the culture of the inner cities.



    Perhaps changing culture is the solution to improving society. The idea is certainly intriguing.
    Hip hop culture has jack squat to do with black culture in America. It is one aspect, but it no one negatively affects the majority of black Americans.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    05-09-2015 08:43 AM
  5. A895's Avatar
    It's an idea that's been talked about for years, maybe decades. Even the whole "Back in my day, these young whippersnappers respected their elders" (As said in my most raspy cranky old man choice) lines invoke similar ideals. I think a large part of the problem is not only trying to push back against the behemoth that is mass marketed pop culture media, but it's also human nature to ignore, if not resent, outside forces trying to change them. So while we can debate this all day online, the real changes have to come from the communities affected. The police can go through all the training in the world and government can hand out money like candy, but problems will still persist as long as the citizens don't respect the cops and don't take it upon themselves to improve their own situation.
    You still don't get it. It isn't the people themselves exclusively. A few are unwilling to leave their "ghetto/hood", I knew a few like that when I lived in the projects. But the majority of black Americans who live in poverty, you can ask them, they would definitely like to be in a better environment.

    And it is not racial in that context. It the fact that so many black communities live in poverty. You can compare this any areas in the world where poverty exist. It becomes a racial topic because a good number of black Americans do live in areas with high poverty.


    It isn't about culture, because nothing In have ever experienced says that " black people should remain hood for life". On the contrary many people I knew personally wanted more out of life but they couldn't because:

    1.) Parents came from poverty too and don't make that much so financial support isn't that high

    2.) Education in inner cities, urban areas of black communities is sub standard. You get old books, you get teachers who don't care whether you pass or fail and the education system is designed that someone can stop going to school and no one cares. As compare to my current area (suburban Atlanta, upper middle class neighborhood) if you miss more than one class they immediately call your parents regardless.

    3.) Housing, in many poor areas housing is substandard and because of aforementioned financial issues, apartments and housed pass on for years between family. My grandmother lived in the same apartment for over 10 years.

    4.) Not only high school stuff, but college wise, in many urban schools they don't stress college at all. Compared to my school in my area (again, middle class area) they had mandatory meetings with counselors about college and you had to have a college lined up before you left unless you were JROTC.

    5.) Environment is also terrible. No one comes and cleans streets. Some areas cops are nowhere to be found at all. And when you call the cops they take forever to come. There was an abandoned house right next to where I used to live. Literally next door. It was shut down after the previous occupant was arrested for being a drug dealer, his house was a drug house. And even then, where I stayed in Rochester, the city didn't want to keep tearing down abandoned houses because it was expensive.

    6.) Availability of jobs is low. In Baltimore for example unemployment for young men was around 30%. All that unemployment will lead to higher crime.

    All of this is not racial it is the fact of the matter where dealing with areas of high poverty.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    05-09-2015 09:02 AM
  6. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I was not speaking in police brutality exclusively. I am talking about how coos, media and even people all called all 3 young men thugs. When none of them even are thugs. Even Eric Garners case, they tried to say because he was big they had to get rough. No one like them deserve to be called names like that when they are dead. I don't care what anyone thinks "thug" shouldn't be thrown at anyone like any of them. Or even look a Fox News and CNN coverage of Baltimore calling everyone that was black a thug.

    "Thug" in context to any of those situations have negative connotations. You can see that at least.
    I agree that "thug" has a negative connotation, but you've been coming off as if to say those descriptions that happen after the fact by uninvolved people somehow caused the situation in the first place. When you look at the situation as it happened, those slurs are not used, and your thug arguments hold no water. Thug or not, something like going after a cop's gun will get you shot.

    1.) Parents came from poverty too and don't make that much so financial support isn't that high

    2.) Education in inner cities, urban areas of black communities is sub standard. You get old books, you get teachers who don't care whether you pass or fail and the education system is designed that someone can stop going to school and no one cares. As compare to my current area (suburban Atlanta, upper middle class neighborhood) if you miss more than one class they immediately call your parents regardless.

    3.) Housing, in many poor areas housing is substandard and because of aforementioned financial issues, apartments and housed pass on for years between family. My grandmother lived in the same apartment for over 10 years.

    4.) Not only high school stuff, but college wise, in many urban schools they don't stress college at all. Compared to my school in my area (again, middle class area) they had mandatory meetings with counselors about college and you had to have a college lined up before you left unless you were JROTC.

    5.) Environment is also terrible. No one comes and cleans streets. Some areas cops are nowhere to be found at all. And when you call the cops they take forever to come. There was an abandoned house right next to where I used to live. Literally next door. It was shut down after the previous occupant was arrested for being a drug dealer, his house was a drug house. And even then, where I stayed in Rochester, the city didn't want to keep tearing down abandoned houses because it was expensive.

    6.) Availability of jobs is low. In Baltimore for example unemployment for young men was around 30%. All that unemployment will lead to higher crime.
    1) Parents cab and should instil proper manners, respect, and work ethics into their kids so they can be self motivated to do what it takes to break the cycle and move ahead.

    2) & 4) I'm in favor of school vouchers and such so schools have to compete for students (meaning they have to shape up to do so) and parents can send their kids to the better performing ones. Throwing more money at the current system hasn't been working out so well, but people keep thinking it does.

    3), 5), &6) Get the prior fixes in motion and these will start working themselves out. There is no overnight fix for a problem decades in the making. It takes time and effort to do the right thing for themselves and their kids.
    05-09-2015 10:24 AM
  7. A895's Avatar
    I agree that "thug" has a negative connotation, but you've been coming off as if to say those descriptions that happen after the fact by uninvolved people somehow caused the situation in the first place. When you look at the situation as it happened, those slurs are not used, and your thug arguments hold no water. Thug or not, something like going after a cop's gun will get you shot.



    1) Parents cab and should instil proper manners, respect, and work ethics into their kids so they can be self motivated to do what it takes to break the cycle and move ahead.

    You still are missing the point. How can someone who never had luxuries or ever was really successful in life instill lessons that they never fully learned? You are simplifying way too much. Opportunities was scarce for my grandmother's generation, so learning financial responsibility and learning how to do better for yourself weren't lessons that my mothers generation was taught, they had to figure it out on their own. In the case of my family, my mom and aunt went unto the army. Otherwise they would definitely been the sane place my grandmother was.

    2) & 4) I'm in favor of school vouchers and such so schools have to compete for students (meaning they have to shape up to do so) and parents can send their kids to the better performing ones. Throwing more money at the current system hasn't been working out so well, but people keep thinking it does.
    That is a terrible idea. A school should work for the students not the other way around. And you still ignored my point. The issue is they AREN'T getting enough funding. Having a terrible looking school is commonplace in urban areas, and the inside reflects the outside. Cracks in walls, some places don't get cleaned for days. Books are in short supply. I could go on. I have no clue where all this Education money goes the government spends. It isn't seen in inner city schools.

    3), 5), &6) Get the prior fixes in motion and these will start working themselves out. There is no overnight fix for a problem decades in the making. It takes time and effort to do the right thing for themselves and their kids.

    Those aren't realistic fixes for the actual situation. Those are fixes for some fairy tale. It shows disconnect in understanding and experience when proposals like that are made.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    05-09-2015 02:14 PM
  8. Mooncatt's Avatar
    There's nothing new about these issues. The people running the inner cities and the schools haven't been able to fix it, but you're going to shoot down ideas for people to help themselves? Keep doing the same things they have been, and they'll get more of the same results.

    As for the school choice issue, what's so bad about that? Competition is everywhere. Don't like a store, you go to another one. If that first store really wants your business, they'll have to EARN it. Schools should be no different. People that can afford it often send their kids to private schools, where they can pick the best one for them instead of settling for whatever mediocre school happens to be closest. Most people would love to send their kids to better schools than they are assigned to.

    By allowing school choice, vouchers, etc, you can hold them more accountable. If that's not an option, all you can do is complain to the school board and just hope something changes (which is unlikely). You mean you'd rather wait for that behemoth to change than to have the option to simply transfer the kids to a school that already performs to your standards?
    05-09-2015 02:56 PM
  9. A895's Avatar
    There's nothing new about these issues. The people running the inner cities and the schools haven't been able to fix it, but you're going to shoot down ideas for people to help themselves? Keep doing the same things they have been, and they'll get more of the same results.
    See this is what I am talking about people who don't and have never lived in black poverty keep trying tell those in it, WHAT they should do. This is why Republicans are the stupidest party in the world in my opinion. You keep thinking the schools and cities are directly helping them and they still are not doing anything. Push that thought out of your mind now. Cities do JACK nothing as far as black poverty goes. They are the ones who LET it get so bad. Crime goes up, bigger police presence, but no mention of anything having to do with the economy. Kodak was the biggest employer in Rochester, NY. They cut 1,000s of jobs. The city do anything about that? Nope. So let's cut that. If anything cities haven't done enough for the residents. They treat those who are in poverty as criminals and it helps instigate the issue even more.



    As for the school choice issue, what's so bad about that? Competition is everywhere.
    This is education we are talking we should not be competing we should be teaching and helping students whoever they are. The hell competition has to do with learning?


    Don't like a store, you go to another one. If that first store really wants your business, they'll have to EARN it. Schools should be no different. People that can afford it often send their kids to private schools, where they can pick the best one for them instead of settling for whatever mediocre school happens to be closest. Most people would love to send their kids to better schools than they are assigned to.
    Terrible analogy. But yes people do want kids to go to good schools, but that costs more money and how education works in many places, you go to school where it is nearest to you. And often that school is terrible. Good schools are reserved for white suburban areas all part of the white flight.

    By allowing school choice, vouchers, etc, you can hold them more accountable. If that's not an option, all you can do is complain to the school board and just hope something changes (which is unlikely). You mean you'd rather wait for that behemoth to change than to have the option to simply transfer the kids to a school that already performs to your standards?
    You are assuming every kid is on equal footing as far as intelligence. Which is why your idea is awful. The point of school is foster and nourish the mind before adulthood so you have some knowledge before stepping out into the world. And many students in these high poverty areas need specialized attention and a slow pace. When students are left to their mechanisms as far as education goes some will be left behind and have poor performance. So in your idea is that the smart kids all go to school to the good schools while anyone who isn't that intelligent all get lumped together in the worst schools. That is just awful.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    05-09-2015 03:08 PM
  10. A895's Avatar
    This is an excellent article on black poverty in the example of Baltimore:

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/02/us/lor...ore/index.html

    Posted via the Android Central App
    05-09-2015 03:17 PM
  11. Mooncatt's Avatar
    You're pretty much complaining about the problems of inner city life while still promoting many of the things that caused the problems in the first place. You said yourself that cities aren't doing anything to help the situation, so why are you shutting down ideas to get them out of said situations. You sound like you want those people to stay and keep expecting SOMEONE ELSE to fix their problems. That's not how it works in the real world.
    05-09-2015 05:29 PM
  12. Scott7217's Avatar
    She better than anyone recognizes the hardship a black person can face in life. But she also recognizes that the mentality of two different nations with different upbringing of black children that foster these separate priorities.
    The good thing is that you haven't flat-out said that Oprah Winfrey is wrong in her assessment of African-American children when compared to South African children.

    Is there a way to encourage the same priorities that South African children value onto African-American children?
    05-09-2015 09:28 PM
  13. A895's Avatar
    You're pretty much complaining about the problems of inner city life while still promoting many of the things that caused the problems in the first place. You said yourself that cities aren't doing anything to help the situation, so why are you shutting down ideas to get them out of said situations. You sound like you want those people to stay and keep expecting SOMEONE ELSE to fix their problems. That's not how it works in the real world.
    Your ideas won't work in the real world. Point blank. And I never said I want then to stay as they are. Stop putting words where there aren't any. But honestly, you think just leaving them as is in poverty helps anything? Or can we work to eliminate the basic economic issues and hardships the black community faces?

    And where did I promote anything? People are ridiculous. How you have a country who has spent years subjugating and oppressing an entire group of people but have the nerve to complain when they get fed up with it all. There was never a time like white people where blacks had a majority or large amount of power, never in history so when people say why can't they haul their bootstraps, yada, yada. It shows how little they pay attention to history and how much the past has affected the current state of the country. And continue affect the present.

    What other race has faced slavery, segregation, and various forms of racism in the span of less than 160 years and comes out ok entirely?

    But now somehow the current situation of black poverty is somehow just black peoples fault.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    05-09-2015 10:40 PM
  14. A895's Avatar
    The good thing is that you haven't flat-out said that Oprah Winfrey is wrong in her assessment of African-American children when compared to South African children.

    Is there a way to encourage the same priorities that South African children value onto African-American children?
    Start by fixing the root of the problem, poverty and environment. Clean up the streets literally, lower crime and offering fairer opportunities.

    One good story I read was Adesanmi "Going to meet black America". He perfectly described seeing black communities and what they face. He is a black African coming to the states and even remarks some of the most poverty stricken areas he saw were worse than what he saw in Africa.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    05-09-2015 10:57 PM
  15. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Stop putting words where there aren't any.
    I've given several suggestions on how the black communities can work to fix their problems, just like I'd offer suggestions to anyone else. I don't care who you are; you're the only one that can improve your lot in life. When you shoot those ideas down, you have nothing else to offer but what other people (specifically government) should do for the black community. How is that any different than it's been for decades? What makes you think it's going to change anytime soon at this point?
    Start by fixing the root of the problem, poverty and environment. Clean up the streets literally, lower crime and offering fairer opportunities.
    This was one of my suggestions earlier. Don't litter, don't graffiti up the place, and don't freaking commit the crime in the first place. Businesses don't want to move into trashy areas of town. But no, you've shot that down. So what's the other option? Blame the city for people not respecting their own neighborhoods? Blame the cops for the purse snatchers, drug dealers, and gang violence? If you're not going to hold people accountable for their own actions, then who?
    05-10-2015 06:36 AM
  16. anon8126715's Avatar
    Hateful police texts spur San Francisco probe
    http://www.cnn.com//2015/05/08/us/sa...xts/index.html

    Sure, the cops aren't racist at all.......

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
    05-10-2015 08:53 AM
  17. A895's Avatar
    When you shoot those ideas down, you have nothing else to offer but what other people (specifically government) should do for the black community. How is that any different than it's been for decades? What makes you think it's going to change anytime soon at this point?
    I am not asking the government to give handouts if that is what you are insinuating and you keep ignoring what I say. I already said realistic action that can be taken. You must think the black community is lazy and don't want to improve if you are saying nothing has changed. You keep ignoring history too. Why shouldn't a government do for a group of people who have been marginalized for hundred of years? By that government itself no less.



    This was one of my suggestions earlier. Don't litter, don't graffiti up the place, and don't freaking commit the crime in the first place.
    Ah, the stereotypes and tropes finally come out. What do you think happens in poverty? Any place with high poverty in anywhere in the world there will be high crime and littering will be smallest of offenses.



    Businesses don't want to move into trashy areas of town. But no, you've shot that down.
    I already said multiple times, if someone like the cities themselves kept the neighborhoods physically cleaned instead of just letting it get worse, it would have not been an issue. But when in areas of less income, there will be less cause for concern to clean their neighborhoods. That is concurrent for any place in the world. And some businesses thrive in these kind of neighborhoods. When I lived in the hood, McDonalds, the local supermarket chain, and corner stores made good business. Not to mention local restaurants and barbershops. Local people set up local shops in absence of any major company presence. There was even a Family Dollar and CVS in the area that had good business as well.



    So what's the other option? Blame the city for people not respecting their own neighborhoods?
    Honest question you think everyone in the neighborhood just let it get that bad or is it compounded negligence for some? Not every black person litters and let the neighborhoods get the way they are.



    Blame the cops for the purse snatchers, drug dealers, and gang violence?
    Ok, some wild nonsense flying now. Purse snatching is, like, does that even happen anymore? It seem so damn weak. But anyways, in any poverty stricken area, again, there will be crime. And along with the absence of opportunities that I outlined in another post, people turn to ways to make quick and easy money. And gang violence contrary to popular belief is more of a problem in BIG cities like LA and NY. There is a gang problem in a lot of cities, but nothing on any large scale. The biggest gang in the country is from LA.



    If you're not going to hold people accountable for their own actions, then who?
    Again, you keep taking my words out of context, I am not saying people can't be responsible for their actions, but when you live a life as a poor black person you don't have as many opportunities, and choices that poor white person may have. You can clean up a poor white man and a poor black man and I guarantee you that poor white man can get a job before the black mane. Because, what you refuse to and what many here refuse to do, is acknowledge that yes, the scales for black and white in America aren't equal. History plays an important part in that.
    05-10-2015 11:57 AM
  18. A895's Avatar
    Hateful police texts spur San Francisco probe
    San Francisco text scandal: Police arrests questioned - CNN.com

    Sure, the cops aren't racist at all.......

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
    I have seen like 3-4 stories on cops in major cities are sending each other racist texts and jokes. Yet people continue to deny there is in fact racism in law enforcement to some degree. And because of that how many people have been victims of police brutality or arrested based on their skin alone? If even just .5% of all cops in America are racist that is too much. Police have way too much power in confrontations between law enforcement and the people. In any given situation with a cop, they can kill with enough provocation without a second thought. And that is the heart of movements like #Blacklivesmatter, police brutality against minorities has been rooted in racism and discrimination for decades. Here is a quick google search:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=poli...w=1869&bih=848

    Hell, how many times MLK was arrested for speaking his mind in standing up for rights for black people? How many times during the civil rights movement were people attacked by cops and even people just by being there. Hell, look at the sit ins from the 50s-60s. Cops just stood by and allowed people to pour drinks at them for just sitting at the counter. Or even at how firefighters used to turn the hose on black people, no repercussions. History has shaped the plight of black americans and as time goes on it gets better, but there is still room for improvement from officers, government, black communities, and even people of other races.
    05-10-2015 12:06 PM
  19. anon8126715's Avatar
    I have seen like 3-4 stories on cops in major cities are sending each other racist texts and jokes. Yet people continue to deny there is in fact racism in law enforcement to some degree. And because of that how many people have been victims of police brutality or arrested based on their skin alone? If even just .5% of all cops in America are racist that is too much. Police have way too much power in confrontations between law enforcement and the people. In any given situation with a cop, they can kill with enough provocation without a second thought. And that is the heart of movements like #Blacklivesmatter, police brutality against minorities has been rooted in racism and discrimination for decades. Here is a quick google search:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=poli...w=1869&bih=848

    Hell, how many times MLK was arrested for speaking his mind in standing up for rights for black people? How many times during the civil rights movement were people attacked by cops and even people just by being there. Hell, look at the sit ins from the 50s-60s. Cops just stood by and allowed people to pour drinks at them for just sitting at the counter. Or even at how firefighters used to turn the hose on black people, no repercussions. History has shaped the plight of black americans and as time goes on it gets better, but there is still room for improvement from officers, government, black communities, and even people of other races.
    Some people are ok with the way things are because they think it doesn't affect them. What they fail to realize is that if justice is set based on your wealth, race, gender, sexual orientation, then there IS NO JUSTICE. I still can't figure out why that's such a hard concept. I saw another news story recently where the family had left a child locked in the car. The family wasn't charged. Guess what their race was. I hear the same tired excuse, "The family has been through enough already with the loss of a child, so we aren't going to pursue criminal charges". I'm surprised that blatant disregard of empathy towards other people hasn't been further examined by the media. Although, I'm really not that surprised as it would be obvious what they would find.
    A895 likes this.
    05-10-2015 01:28 PM
  20. A895's Avatar
    Just some stats:

    http://killedbypolice.net/

    42 cops killed so far this year but 413 people have been killed by cops this year so far. And over a 1,000 (it is underreported how many exactly) died by cops hands last year compare to 126.

    So by rough math every 9/10 fatal encounters between cops and people, the people die. Quite interesting.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    Attached Thumbnails US Marshal Smashes Woman's Phone-13373.jpg   US Marshal Smashes Woman's Phone-13374.jpg   US Marshal Smashes Woman's Phone-13375.jpg  
    05-10-2015 05:30 PM
  21. anon8126715's Avatar
    Educator calls out 'black people' at ceremony
    http://www.cnn.com//2015/05/09/livin...ing/index.html

    Now if a person like this is in charge of ensuring academic success of all students, exactly what are the chances that she is biased against some of those students and some of those students don't get the care and preparation they need to be successful?

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
    A895 likes this.
    05-10-2015 11:10 PM
  22. Scott7217's Avatar
    One good story I read was Adesanmi "Going to meet black America".
    I like how Pius Adesanmi said that his father was more Catholic "than the Pope," and that the one thing he couldn't tolerate was "a mind that has not read books."

    It's a good article. You've convinced me that there are many positive benefits to religion and reading.
    05-12-2015 05:43 PM
  23. anon8126715's Avatar
    The previous post from TXGTOU pointed out the negative influence of culture, specifically from hip hop.



    Another forum member, raf66, talked about the necessity of changing the culture of the inner cities.



    Perhaps changing culture is the solution to improving society. The idea is certainly intriguing.
    I think the U.S. media bombards us with images of successful, well to do individuals, and we try our hardest to live up to those images, hence the reason a lot of us live beyond our means and carry a lot of debt. One thing I've noticed from some of the people is how much money people make vs what they try to project to make. There is some great disparity in the two numbers.
    A895 and Rim85 like this.
    05-12-2015 09:57 PM
  24. A895's Avatar
    I like how Pius Adesanmi said that his father was more Catholic "than the Pope," and that the one thing he couldn't tolerate was "a mind that has not read books."

    It's a good article. You've convinced me that there are many positive benefits to religion and reading.
    My point was about views of black America from an African perspective. Though he does touch on education.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    05-12-2015 10:06 PM
  25. Scott7217's Avatar
    I think the U.S. media bombards us with images of successful, well to do individuals, and we try our hardest to live up to those images, hence the reason a lot of us live beyond our means and carry a lot of debt.
    This is why Oprah Winfrey makes a point that school in the United States is free of charge, unlike in South Africa. It's not beyond the means of Americans.

    Education is the key to success. It's something Oprah Winfrey knows from her own experience.
    05-13-2015 04:44 PM
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