06-22-2015 04:39 PM
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  1. Scott7217's Avatar
    Anthony Romero of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) wrote an interesting opinion piece that advocated granting a pardon to George W. Bush:

    The New York Times -- Pardon Bush and Those Who Tortured (article link)

    I would be curious to know if anyone else would be in favor of pardoning Bush.
    05-09-2015 10:27 PM
  2. Kelly Kearns's Avatar
    Pardoning him? He hasn't been charged with anything, much less convicted.
    05-09-2015 11:23 PM
  3. anon8126715's Avatar
    Pardoning him? He hasn't been charged with anything, much less convicted.
    I think you need to read the article. At first I was thinking the same thing, but then I thought, "Maybe it's more of a symbolic gesture." and when I read the article, I understood the purpose.

    Lets face it, GWB and his minions aren't going to be held accountable for this or any other acts against America's best interest (2008 financial collapse, gas price gouging, taking us to an unnecessary war, allowing 9/11 to take place, etc). This would be more of a call-out on Obama's part. It would say, "We know you did wrong, you know you did wrong, and we're going to acknowledge you did wrong via this pardon".

    What irritates me though, is that ultimately there will be NO accountability. Just like the 2008 financial crisis, no one will be tried, no one will serve jail time, which is the real tragedy. This would at least (as the author of the article has stated) put future leaders on notice that you may be held accountable in the future (although, I'm doubtful that it would happen then as well).
    05-10-2015 02:57 PM
  4. anon8126715's Avatar
    One final thought, if some other country arrested Bush or Cheney for war crimes during a visit, I'd have no problem with it.
    05-10-2015 03:06 PM
  5. Kelly Kearns's Avatar
    I think you need to read the article. At first I was thinking the same thing, but then I thought, "Maybe it's more of a symbolic gesture." and when I read the article, I understood the purpose.

    Lets face it, GWB and his minions aren't going to be held accountable for this or any other acts against America's best interest (2008 financial collapse, gas price gouging, taking us to an unnecessary war, allowing 9/11 to take place, etc). This would be more of a call-out on Obama's part. It would say, "We know you did wrong, you know you did wrong, and we're going to acknowledge you did wrong via this pardon".

    What irritates me though, is that ultimately there will be NO accountability. Just like the 2008 financial crisis, no one will be tried, no one will serve jail time, which is the real tragedy. This would at least (as the author of the article has stated) put future leaders on notice that you may be held accountable in the future (although, I'm doubtful that it would happen then as well).
    You need to look to Clinton the issues with OBL and 9/11. Clinton let him go so many times.

    Also I think Congress needs to be looked at. I'm no GWB fan, nor am I a party person.

    I know why we went after Saddam, most military people know the real reason and I agree with it. If someone wants to start getting rid of the petrodollar and crash our economy, that is an act of war. Saddam was about to get that started.

    No POTUS has anything to do with gas prices.

    Our financial problems didn't start until the last 2 years, we Democrats, which were mainly Progressives under the name of Democrat, got the majority.

    Until the PEOPLE start holding leaders responsible by voting them out, nothing will change, so far it hasn't changed.

    Obama has just taken the worst Bush policies and gone turbo with them. Obama is basically GWB v2, same coin, different side.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    05-10-2015 06:24 PM
  6. anon8126715's Avatar
    You need to look to Clinton the issues with OBL and 9/11. Clinton let him go so many times.

    Also I think Congress needs to be looked at. I'm no GWB fan, nor am I a party person.

    I know why we went after Saddam, most military people know the real reason and I agree with it. If someone wants to start getting rid of the petrodollar and crash our economy, that is an act of war. Saddam was about to get that started.

    No POTUS has anything to do with gas prices.

    Our financial problems didn't start until the last 2 years, we Democrats, which were mainly Progressives under the name of Democrat, got the majority.

    Until the PEOPLE start holding leaders responsible by voting them out, nothing will change, so far it hasn't changed.

    Obama has just taken the worst Bush policies and gone turbo with them. Obama is basically GWB v2, same coin, different side.
    So what we're doing to the Russian economy right now, would you consider that an act of war? As far as Clinton and Bin Laden, you forget that just a few years before that, the Bush family was all chummy with the Bin Ladens. Under the Bush administration, there were some regulations that were stripped that gave speculators more wiggle room to affect the price of gas. He also stripped other regulations that helped lead to the crash of 2008. I will go so far to even say that even Clinton signed some legislation that helped the economy tank in 2008.

    As far as Obama, you must be on something if you think that he is just Bush v2. Yes the Bush Tax cuts should've been allowed to expire, but don't forget that Congress was holding the rest of the country hostage in an attempt to keep those cuts in place (how nice of them to represent a few fat cats and not the rest of the country). He flat out stated that what was taking place under the previous administration WAS torture, and put an end to it. And while the healthcare plan we have is NOT the greatest (if we can afford to go to war in Iraq, then we can afford single payer), at least it's a start.
    05-10-2015 08:19 PM
  7. Kelly Kearns's Avatar
    I don't want single player insurance. Why do it was the government in more stuff.

    A POTUS is limited in power. Our POTUS doesn't set gas prices, if they do, Obama is in trouble.

    Russia and crashing our system that makes the Depression look like a party, is two different things.

    Our dollar is backed by the petrodollar.

    Im sorry, the relationship with OBL and the Bush's? Reagan is the one that set up OBL. We have always used militants to fight proxy wars with Russia, who BTW, is working with China to crash the petrodollar also.

    There is no party that isn't involved in Crony Capitalism.

    If you don't see the bad Bush polices that Obama continued, can't help you there.

    One single thing Obama continued and expanded was the Patriot Act and the NSA and that is just the beginning.

    No I don't forget anything, I just don't fall into the left or right category.

    As far as terrorists, I don't have a problem with torture.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    05-10-2015 08:34 PM
  8. Kelly Kearns's Avatar
    Obama actually hunted down an American citizen that never took up arms, denied him a trial and executed him, his child and others.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    05-10-2015 08:36 PM
  9. anon8126715's Avatar
    If you don't see the bad Bush polices that Obama continued, can't help you there.
    Are you sure you're not right wing? That's typical of them, make assertions without trying to post any sort of facts, even though you posted a couple of policies. I will agree with you that the Patriot Acts and the NSA spying on U.S. citizens are good assertions, which is why I am disappointed in Obama and his whole "Change" bit. I still don't think he's GWB v2 in regard to Bush bad policies gone "turbo". If anything, he's not the candidate he claimed he would be in 2008, but then again a lot of candidates rarely are.

    As far as the single payer, why not? Let there be a single payer that provides for the most basic coverage (as opposed to emergency rooms being over-used and bringing down our economy), and allow people to buy premium services so that they aren't handcuffed to their employer because of the healthcare.
    05-10-2015 09:25 PM
  10. Kelly Kearns's Avatar
    Sigh.. Not getting into a huge political debate here.

    Yeah, I think I know where I stand in politics.

    I don't want government health care because they need to get out of our business and lives.

    Yeah, I believe in gay marriage as it is a Civil Right and to deny it also violates the 14th Amendment.

    Yup I'm right wing, because that is so a right wing view.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    05-10-2015 09:32 PM
  11. anon8126715's Avatar
    Sigh.. Not getting into a huge political debate here.

    Yeah, I think I know where I stand in politics.

    I don't want government health care because they need to get out of our business and lives.

    Yeah, I believe in gay marriage as it is a Civil Right and to deny it also violates the 14th Amendment.

    Yup I'm right wing, because that is so a right wing view.
    You know this is a political forum right?

    So you're ok with our Healthcare system prior to Obama care? You believe that insurers should be able to drop policy holders for trumped up reasons? You're ok with hospitals charging patients a few hundred dollars for aspirin? How would you reign in prices?

    But back on topic, should bush be tried as a war criminal, should nothing be done, or should a pardon be issued if it's only symbolic?

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
    A895 likes this.
    05-10-2015 11:18 PM
  12. Kelly Kearns's Avatar
    You know this is a political forum right?

    So you're ok with our Healthcare system prior to Obama care? You believe that insurers should be able to drop policy holders for trumped up reasons? You're ok with hospitals charging patients a few hundred dollars for aspirin? How would you reign in prices?

    But back on topic, should bush be tried as a war criminal, should nothing be done, or should a pardon be issued if it's only symbolic?

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
    Yeah I know it is a political forum. I said I wasn't getting into a HUGE political debate.

    Where did I say our current healthcare system is good?

    Mind quoting that?
    Scott7217 likes this.
    05-10-2015 11:44 PM
  13. anon8126715's Avatar
    Yeah I know it is a political forum. I said I wasn't getting into a HUGE political debate.

    Where did I say our current healthcare system is good?

    Mind quoting that?
    It's called deductive reasoning. When you state one policy isn't good and use it as a basis for your argument against someone (in this case Obama's Presidency), then one can deduce that you prefer the policy that was previously in place.


    I don't want single player insurance. Why do it was the government in more stuff.
    Despite what I assume are typos, it appears that you don't want the government in the healthcare business. Why are we one of the few industrialized nations that doesn't have a baseline healthcare plan for its citizens? A lot of people on the right claim that we need to align ourselves better with the rest of the world when it comes to being globally competitive in the market. If that's the case, why not take the burden of healthcare expenses off of our private sector's bottom line?
    A895 likes this.
    05-11-2015 05:22 AM
  14. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Getting back to the original topic, you can't pardon someone that hasn't been convicted of a crime, symbolic or not. You also can't pardon someone unless you're the President/governor, etc. I hope I'm not the only one that thinks it sounds silly for someone to essentially say, "I think you committed such and such crime, and I've convicted you in my head, but hey... I'm not actually going to file charges. We both know you did it [in my mind anyway], so I'm just going to 'pardon' you for this fictitious crime and call it even." If this were someone on the right doing this to Obama, they'd be laughed right out of town.
    Laura Knotek and Scott7217 like this.
    05-11-2015 06:45 AM
  15. Kelly Kearns's Avatar
    It's called deductive reasoning. When you state one policy isn't good and use it as a basis for your argument against someone (in this case Obama's Presidency), then one can deduce that you prefer the policy that was previously in place.




    Despite what I assume are typos, it appears that you don't want the government in the healthcare business. Why are we one of the few industrialized nations that doesn't have a baseline healthcare plan for its citizens? A lot of people on the right claim that we need to align ourselves better with the rest of the world when it comes to being globally competitive in the market. If that's the case, why not take the burden of healthcare expenses off of our private sector's bottom line?
    No it is called assumptions. I didn't like the original Patriot Act.

    If I don't like Obama's policies, that doesn't mean I liked Bush's. You reasoning isn't deductive, it is looking more like you think if I don't like Obama, then that means I liked GWB.. You already basically said that. You already tried to make me a right winger.

    Other countries give their citizens a bunch of welfare also.

    I really don't care what other countries do in comparison to ours. What makes you think it is government health care or nothing? I'm not down for living in a socialist country, we are a Republic.

    See? This is why I don't want a huge discussion with you. You don't even see the issues, going from one bad thing to a worse thing, doesn't fix anything.
    05-11-2015 07:11 AM
  16. Kelly Kearns's Avatar
    Getting back to the original topic, you can't pardon someone that hasn't been convicted of a crime, symbolic or not. You also can't pardon someone unless you're the President/governor, etc. I hope I'm not the only one that thinks it sounds silly for someone to essentially say, "I think you committed such and such crime, and I've convicted you in my head, but hey... I'm not actually going to file charges. We both know you did it [in my mind anyway], so I'm just going to 'pardon' you for this fictitious crime and call it even." If this were someone on the right doing this to Obama, they'd be laughed right out of town.
    No you aren't the only one that thinks all of that.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    05-11-2015 07:12 AM
  17. anon(92475)'s Avatar
    One final thought, if some other country arrested Bush or Cheney for war crimes during a visit, I'd have no problem with it.
    Yes, because locking up a former President would go over so well /s. That makes perfect sense. Let's **** off the most powerful country in the world. That won't end badly for us.

    I don't care if you like the man or not, have some respect. I'm not a big fan of Cheney, Carter, or Obama, but I would never want anything to happen to them.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    Scott7217 likes this.
    05-11-2015 11:18 AM
  18. A895's Avatar
    No it is called assumptions. I didn't like the original Patriot Act.

    If I don't like Obama's policies, that doesn't mean I liked Bush's. You reasoning isn't deductive, it is looking more like you think if I don't like Obama, then that means I liked GWB.. You already basically said that. You already tried to make me a right winger.

    Other countries give their citizens a bunch of welfare also.

    I really don't care what other countries do in comparison to ours. What makes you think it is government health care or nothing? I'm not down for living in a socialist country, we are a Republic.

    See? This is why I don't want a huge discussion with you. You don't even see the issues, going from one bad thing to a worse thing, doesn't fix anything.
    Yes because universal healthcare which every other first world country has is sooo socialist. People love to throw socialist around but don't even realize historically and realistically calling it socialism is wrong.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    05-11-2015 04:35 PM
  19. anon8126715's Avatar
    Yes, because locking up a former President would go over so well /s. That makes perfect sense. Let's **** off the most powerful country in the world. That won't end badly for us.

    I don't care if you like the man or not, have some respect. I'm not a big fan of Cheney, Carter, or Obama, but I would never want anything to happen to them.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    Sorry but I don't have respect for someone that violated the Geneva Convention. All his act did was increase the brutality that our soldiers were subjected to. Does the saying, "Evil begets evil" ring a bell?
    05-11-2015 05:10 PM
  20. anon8126715's Avatar
    No it is called assumptions. I didn't like the original Patriot Act.

    If I don't like Obama's policies, that doesn't mean I liked Bush's. You reasoning isn't deductive, it is looking more like you think if I don't like Obama, then that means I liked GWB.. You already basically said that. You already tried to make me a right winger.

    Other countries give their citizens a bunch of welfare also.

    I really don't care what other countries do in comparison to ours. What makes you think it is government health care or nothing? I'm not down for living in a socialist country, we are a Republic.

    See? This is why I don't want a huge discussion with you. You don't even see the issues, going from one bad thing to a worse thing, doesn't fix anything.
    So what alternative is there to the current healthcare plan? Here's the problem with the current system, when you're sick, you're in no condition to look for the best value. Providers can charge whatever price they want when your health is involved. And then there's the leverage against employees. If an employee knows that he/she will be covered when they leave their job, they can negotiate more towards their wage. And guess what, higher wages = more buying power for the middle class which equals more taxable sources, which guess what, can go towards paying for healthcare. I'm guessing ok you win ASSUMING you are against the middle class, because I don't understand how lifting the burden of healthcare costs on the middle class is exactly a bad thing.
    A895 likes this.
    05-11-2015 05:23 PM
  21. Scott7217's Avatar
    Pardoning him? He hasn't been charged with anything, much less convicted.
    So, let's say we were going to charge George W. Bush with breaking the law. How would we go about it?

    I suppose the attorney general would have to submit a list of crimes to the grand jury to start the process. It would be up to the grand jury to determine what would be the appropriate charges.
    05-12-2015 02:52 PM
  22. anon8126715's Avatar
    So, let's say we were going to charge George W. Bush with breaking the law. How would we go about it?

    I suppose the attorney general would have to submit a list of crimes to the grand jury to start the process. It would be up to the grand jury to determine what would be the appropriate charges.
    We can always cover him in brown make-up and leave him in Ferguson or Baltimore.
    05-12-2015 05:16 PM
  23. Scott7217's Avatar
    One final thought, if some other country arrested Bush or Cheney for war crimes during a visit, I'd have no problem with it.
    It would interesting to see if another country would issue a warrant for George W. Bush. Would that country send their police to the United States to arrest him?

    Furthermore, would the US be obligated to hand over Bush? Remember, aiding and abetting a criminal is a crime. Given that Bush lives in Texas, would the entire state of Texas be guilty of harboring a fugitive?

    Honestly, I could see the US fighting back against anyone who tried to arrest Bush.
    05-12-2015 06:06 PM
  24. anon8126715's Avatar
    It would interesting to see if another country would issue a warrant for George W. Bush. Would that country send their police to the United States to arrest him?

    Furthermore, would the US be obligated to hand over Bush? Remember, aiding and abetting a criminal is a crime. Given that Bush lives in Texas, would the entire state of Texas be guilty of harboring a fugitive?

    Honestly, I could see the US fighting back against anyone who tried to arrest Bush.
    Would be a possibility if he was in a country that viewed him as a war criminal. I actually see him as a war criminal. When our soldiers are held and treated the same, we're outraged. There are reasons that we've signed treaties to prevent such acts. Just because our enemies act like savages doesn't mean we should act the same.
    05-12-2015 09:11 PM
  25. Kelly Kearns's Avatar
    Yes because universal healthcare which every other first world country has is sooo socialist. People love to throw socialist around but don't even realize historically and realistically calling it socialism is wrong.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    Health care isn't the only socialist part.

    Progressives, just another name for socialist and Obama is very much a progressive.

    Where did I say single player health care was the one and only sign of socialism.

    I can help you.. I did not say that. I was asked about health care.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    05-13-2015 10:30 AM
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