02-27-2020 02:02 PM
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  1. Mooncatt's Avatar
    'I never claimed life was better (a subjective term), only that disease outbreaks were nowhere near as bad as they are now.'

    This one is too much to let stand unchallenged. It's simply wrong.
    20th century - Flu Pandemic kills millions
    Black Plague - need I say more.
    Small Pox - horrible way to die
    Polio - those not killed are forever debilitated.
    If you need more examples, keep posting falsehoods. I'll straighten things up
    All of which fall under the diseases of modern society. Please read the rest of that particular post.
    02-26-2020 06:56 AM
  2. methodman89's Avatar
    If your only referring to prior to written history or prior to agriculture, the only evidence of anything is post mortem. In modern times, including since the first vaccines, there is no comparison.
    Trying to conjoin all the moving parts of the discussion is a fools errand. I'm pointing out misstatements as they appear out of context.
    Golurk, TgeekB and Laura Knotek like this.
    02-26-2020 07:07 AM
  3. TgeekB's Avatar
    Again, the Internet is both a blessing and a curse. People with no medical background or historical knowledge can find tidbits of information and claim them to be true without analysis or proof through scientific study.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    02-26-2020 01:22 PM
  4. Golurk's Avatar
    I chose to believe that humans are not that frail, and that a lot can be done without the use of vaccines. Viral outbreaks didn't really become a thing until humans started living in densely populated areas and eating junk food (I include things like wheat in this list, as it wasn't part of our evolutionarily diet). Ever hear the term "diseases of modern society?" I say the better first step is to get back as close to our origins as possible. Population density won't be overcome, but eating whole/real foods, getting sunlight, getting natural immunities through minor exposure, getting dirty, and not being so reliant on sanitizers (most of our immune system is related to our microbiome, which is constantly assaulted in a modern society where everything is overly sanitized) would take great strides in improving health numbers, and with none of the side effects.

    As for the gun analogy let's expand on that. First are you even going to a proverbial gun fight? In the U.S, not really. If you do decide on the pistol or nothing, a vaccine would be the same as blindly taking it without knowing if it's in proper working order, not knowing if who you're shooting at is a threat to your life, and not knowing if the recoil is going to throw it back into your face and injure you. It's a case of the solution possibly being worse than the original problem, but you won't know until it's too late. Dang near a game of Russian Roulette.
    I’m sorry but that’s just wrong (the second paragraph). Vaccines are nearly 100% effective, with negative side effects being incredibly rare. It’s anything but Russian roulette. And “not knowing what you’re shooting at?”...last time I checked, polio, measles, mumps, rubella and tetanus were bad things and a threat to your life. Vaccines success rate is nearly flawless, so you’re not shooting blind either.

    Since you’re quoting from the CDC, here’s some facts from them:

    “ Measles was declared eliminated (absence of continuous disease transmission for greater than 12 months) from the United States in 2000. This was thanks to a highly effective vaccination program in the United States, as well as better measles control in the Americas region.”

    “ In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year, among reported cases, an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.”

    You could blame urbanisation for the increase in deadly diseases spreading, but that doesn’t counter the fact that vaccines are a huge help in preventing deadly diseases in the first place.

    We’re going to have to disagree here and I respect that you have a different opinion. But to me it seems that even if I threw every single piece of evidence in favour of vaccines you’d refuse to accept it and keep on exaggerating the very few negatives to the extent that, as your above post, you’re practically saying that vaccines are as bad if not worse than the deadly diseases they prevent (which is false).

    Good debating with you
    TgeekB, Laura Knotek and aximtreo like this.
    02-26-2020 01:40 PM
  5. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I’m sorry but that’s just wrong (the second paragraph). Vaccines are nearly 100% effective, with negative side effects being incredibly rare. It’s anything but Russian roulette. And “not knowing what you’re shooting at?”...last time I checked, polio, measles, mumps, rubella and tetanus were bad things and a threat to your life. Vaccines success rate is nearly flawless, so you’re not shooting blind either.
    Effectiveness depends on the vaccine, and one of the worst is the one given on a yearly basis. The flu shot. With others, like the HPV vaccine, you are not vaccinating against cancer, only a precursor to it that may not even develop into cancer. If the goal is preventing cancer, then the efficacy rate should be based on actual preventions and not stopping a precursor. When you compare it to other prevention methods, it lowers the comparative success rate even more. A low carb diet, for example, will starve out cancer cells due to their reliance on sugars for metabolism (healthy cells thrive on good fats).

    As for not knowing what you're shooting at, what I meant is you don't know if a virus will even attempt to infect you. It may just pass you by all together, but you still fired the shot and missed. For the Russian Roulette claim, it's the same principle, only with a much larger revolver cylinder.
    02-26-2020 02:31 PM
  6. TgeekB's Avatar
    Effectiveness depends on the vaccine, and one of the worst is the one given on a yearly basis. The flu shot. With others, like the HPV vaccine, you are not vaccinating against cancer, only a precursor to it that may not even develop into cancer. If the goal is preventing cancer, then the efficacy rate should be based on actual preventions and not stopping a precursor. When you compare it to other prevention methods, it lowers the comparative success rate even more. A low carb diet, for example, will starve out cancer cells due to their reliance on sugars for metabolism (healthy cells thrive on good fats).
    I’d just like to make a comment.

    Making claims that a low carb diet is a defense or cure for cancer is outright dangerous. Again, this is the Internet. People may read this and think it is fact or a that they don’t have to seek medically proven treatment. Please don’t do this to people.

    While I am not a proponent of every drug or medical treatment (people should make intelligent, informed decisions) and agree that a proper diet is important for our health, I do not think it is right to try to influence people with unproven methods for fighting a disease that is devastating them and their family. Please be careful with what you say. You have a responsibility to people who are reading this.
    Laura Knotek, Golurk and aximtreo like this.
    02-26-2020 04:22 PM
  7. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Again, this is the Internet. People may read this and think it is fact or a that they don’t have to seek medically proven treatment. Please don’t do this to people.
    It's not the internet. It's references pulled from numerous books written by doctors, and proven by thousands of people improving their health. Would you believe that Type 2 diabetes is now being cured? It is, through diet, and not hard to understand when you learn how the disease works. I will clarify that low carb could include McDonald's if you didn't eat the bun or fries, but I agree it wouldn't be healthy. I should've stated a nutrient dense keto diet.

    But I never said diet alone was a cure for everything. It's the best first step to improve overall health, including the prevention of diseases. For those times you do get sick, your immune system will more easily fight it off, and medical interventions, where needed, will be more effective.
    02-26-2020 04:36 PM
  8. Golurk's Avatar
    I’d just like to make a comment.

    Making claims that a low carb diet is a defense or cure for cancer is outright dangerous. Again, this is the Internet. People may read this and think it is fact or a that they don’t have to seek medically proven treatment. Please don’t do this to people.

    While I am not a proponent of every drug or medical treatment (people should make intelligent, informed decisions) and agree that a proper diet is important for our health, I do not think it is right to try to influence people with unproven methods for fighting a disease that is devastating them and their family. Please be careful with what you say. You have a responsibility to people who are reading this.
    This ^^^^^^^^^^^^

    You don’t know whether you will be infected with a virus/disease or not. But it’s always a risk, so better to be safe than sorry and get vaccinated so even if you do get it, the likelihood of you being severely ill, injured or dying is dramatically reduced.

    What Mooncatt said about the ‘low carb diet’ is incredibly easily misinterpreted. Unfortunately you get many idiots who get medical information from online forums instead of proper medical institutions or organisations, so I agree with what TgeekB said
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    02-27-2020 02:02 PM
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