08-04-2013 10:33 AM
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  1. garublador's Avatar
    I think I don't care that they're cheating on benchmarks because, like everyone else, one sorta assumes that is happening.

    I think the real issues are:

    1. The company (Kevin is right, any company) outright lying about it afterwards. Their statements are demonstrably false.
    2. The attitude of, to paraphrase, "I don't care that they're blatantly dishonest because _________________". (Insert, "I don't care about benchmarks, my phone is still fast, etc)
    I think the real issue is that people treat benchmarks as scientific material when it's really marketing material. Sure it sucks that marketing material is some of the least trustworthy information out there, but singling out one company for not being honest in marketing material is incredibly biased. Apple has run some of the most blatantly false marketing campaigns out there (remember the Mac and PC ads? About half of what they said was flat out wrong). If you claim you won't purchase products form companies that "lie" in this same way you'll have a really hard time finding stuff to buy and almost certainly won't have any electronic gadgets. Samsung is only guilty of getting caught. The real problem is the benchmark companies claiming what they're selling has anywhere near the precision they claim.
    07-31-2013 04:01 PM
  2. HalizDad's Avatar
    I'm plenty happy with my S4.

    I don't give a **** about silly articles/studies like these. It's just a phone folks, ya need to relax and not spend so much energy trying to bi*ch/complain about it.


    Sent from my Nexus 7 using AC Forums mobile app

    Of course you don't care...but if it was HTC doing it, all of you would be raising hell about it...
    Topgonzo likes this.
    07-31-2013 04:03 PM
  3. anon5664829's Avatar
    Huh? Samsung will never buy a product from..themselves??
    I meant I won't be buying from them.

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-31-2013 04:08 PM
  4. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    I dunno, Apple can certainly take the high road here and just state "We actually care about game performance enough to not use standard GPU's and have a long standing history of pairing our CPU's with PVR amaze-balls gpu's that blow everything in the space out fo the water." Apple has had a smart gaming strategy from the get go - and spent the extra dollars where it matters most for gaming. To get into a pissing match with Samsung over this isn't going to affect enough buyers to count - they simply have to restate their position - "reference chips? - Nah...we go crazy" which is something that no Android vendor has really done up to this point, sans a sad set of attempts using Tegra 2 and 3 chips (the former being the worst possible solution for tablets, and to a lesser degree phone game performance - while the latter was competent - but aside from some graphical whiz bangs courtesy of Nvidia - not able to keep pace with the resolution war, as it'd turn out - and left behind as a result). God don't let this be interperted as me saying anything about Nvidia chips - they've got their advantage and disadvantages - but they're pretty far behind the other ARM candidates in terms of raw horsepower without tradeoffs. I think the Nvidia Tegra 4(and 4i) look more comparable to the modern language set, at least on paper, and I'm encouraged to see those devices start shipping in something other than the abortion that is Shield (don't get me started - timing, potential market size, price, etc make this a bad move on Nvidia's part).
    Half your post is about nVidia chips, but we're supposed to ignore that? I'll just say this, Tegra 4 is impressive in SHIELD. Unless you've used one, you probably don't completely understand it. Just like everyone says about phones, try to withhold judgement until you've spent time with one. I've read all the reviews, and they're mostly positive, especially considering this is version one.

    Ok, enough about that.

    I agree that Apple has always managed to put top specs in their devices. It's impressive, really. I do give them kudos for that, and am glad that Android manufacturers are starting to take notice and care. Now, we just need to get the software side of things up to par. As much as I hate benchmarks (for the very reason this threads exists), optimizing software to run on hardware is the name of the game. We've seen it with Tegra games, we're starting to see it with specific Qualcomm stuff (can't remember the name of the game being optimized for the new Nexus 7....), and hopefully we see something done with the awesome power that is Mali somewhere in the future also. I've said it before, but great hardware really is nothing without great software backing it up.

    /rant
    07-31-2013 04:12 PM
  5. LegalAmerican's Avatar
    I would imagine Samsung has done some research and knows a thing or two about marketing. I'm sure this ties in with that somehow.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    Maybe. But I have to wonder if Samsung REALLY is worried about cheating to sell an additional 5,000 devices to the tech nerds who think benchmarks are meaningful. I don't know that scoring lower on benchmarks would impact the 30+ Million devices they sell to the people who care more about real world use than numbers on a tech site. Maybe they do care a lot about the additional 5k, but I'm not sure.
    07-31-2013 04:24 PM
  6. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Maybe. But I have to wonder if Samsung REALLY is worried about cheating to sell an additional 5,000 devices to the tech nerds who think benchmarks are meaningful. I don't know that scoring lower on benchmarks would impact the 30+ Million devices they sell to the people who care more about real world use than numbers on a tech site. Maybe they do care a lot about the additional 5k, but I'm not sure.
    Why take the risk of potentially making the early adopting geeks mad about it?

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    07-31-2013 04:25 PM
  7. LegalAmerican's Avatar
    I meant I won't be buying from them.

    Posted via Android Central App
    But there are groups of people similar to you who wouldn't buy from them no matter what they did. Even if every other company sucked and was corrupt, and Samsung was honest with the best product, you wouldn't buy from them because of your hatred. Which is why I pointed out earlier that it affects your credibility. I dislike Apple very much right now. But if they adjusted their corporate focus to R & D and stopped suing everyone for pathetic reasons, i'd consider purchasing their product as long as it met my needs and performed better than what I already had. If I was so close minded about them, none of my friends or family would care to ask me for advice when purchasing a new product because they'd know I would just spew venom and zero truth.
    07-31-2013 04:27 PM
  8. LegalAmerican's Avatar
    Why take the risk of potentially making the early adopting geeks mad about it?

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    How do you know that HTC, LG, Sony, or anyone else isn't doing the same thing? Samsung got caught. They were wrong, and I think that is a pathetic thing to do on their part. But i'm not going to pretend that A) I care about benchmarks and B) that no one else is doing it.

    I agree that the principle of it is very wrong. I think it casts a negative shadow on them for sure. But I promise you, my friends that own the S4 will never know any of this happened unless I told them. And even then, they'd say: "What's a benchmark? And what does it mean?" And then they wouldn't think about it again ever.
    07-31-2013 04:31 PM
  9. JHBThree's Avatar
    How do you know that HTC, LG, Sony, or anyone else isn't doing the same thing? Samsung got caught. They were wrong, and I think that is a pathetic thing to do on their part. But i'm not going to pretend that A) I care about benchmarks and B) that no one else is doing it.

    I agree that the principle of it is very wrong. I think it casts a negative shadow on them for sure. But I promise you, my friends that own the S4 will never know any of this happened unless I told them. And even then, they'd say: "What's a benchmark? And what does it mean?" And then they wouldn't think about it again ever.
    Apparently you've missed that Kevin has said at least a half dozen times that those other manufacturers probably ARE doing the same thing.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    07-31-2013 04:32 PM
  10. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    How do you know that HTC, LG, Sony, or anyone else isn't doing the same thing? Samsung got caught. They were wrong, and I think that is a pathetic thing to do on their part. But i'm not going to pretend that A) I care about benchmarks and B) that no one else is doing it.

    I agree that the principle of it is very wrong. I think it casts a negative shadow on them for sure. But I promise you, my friends that own the S4 will never know any of this happened unless I told them. And even then, they'd say: "What's a benchmark? And what does it mean?" And then they wouldn't think about it again ever.
    Did you read the thread? I've said multiple times they just got caught first. My thoughts about this wouldn't change if it were any other manufacturer.

    Benchmarks are already bad, but cheating them makes it even worse. Instead of being able to say "5% faster" for example, they can now say "10% faster" or whatever the numbers are. So no, people don't care about benchmarks, but they do fall victim to marketing and bullet points.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    Topgonzo likes this.
    07-31-2013 04:35 PM
  11. anon5664829's Avatar
    But there are groups of people similar to you who wouldn't buy from them no matter what they did. Even if every other company sucked and was corrupt, and Samsung was honest with the best product, you wouldn't buy from them because of your hatred. Which is why I pointed out earlier that it affects your credibility. I dislike Apple very much right now. But if they adjusted their corporate focus to R & D and stopped suing everyone for pathetic reasons, i'd consider purchasing their product as long as it met my needs and performed better than what I already had. If I was so close minded about them, none of my friends or family would care to ask me for advice when purchasing a new product because they'd know I would just spew venom and zero truth.
    Actually a month or two back I made a post saying my hatred for the S4 was really stupid(I'll link it soon) and you don't buy products from Apple because they sue people? Well I don't buy from Samsung because I think there company is a scumbag for insulting iPhone users calling them dumb,paying Taiwanese students to bash the HTC One and now this purposely inflating benchmarks. I think my reason to not purchase from Apple is far more valid then your reason that Apple sues and therefore are bad.

    Posted via Android Central App
    DS1331 likes this.
    07-31-2013 04:37 PM
  12. Farish's Avatar
    How about this. The way I see it, a company "cheating" a benchmark is like a fast food restaurant using fake food in pictures. It's pretty much the standard practice, they're technically "lying" to customers but no one with any sense believes that they'll get what they see.
    Actually in most cases that is the actual food they use. Please watch this and be floored by how good this guy is.




    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I467 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-31-2013 04:50 PM
  13. Topgonzo's Avatar
    How do you know that HTC, LG, Sony, or anyone else isn't doing the same thing? Samsung got caught. They were wrong, and I think that is a pathetic thing to do on their part. But i'm not going to pretend that A) I care about benchmarks and B) that no one else is doing it.

    I agree that the principle of it is very wrong. I think it casts a negative shadow on them for sure. But I promise you, my friends that own the S4 will never know any of this happened unless I told them. And even then, they'd say: "What's a benchmark? And what does it mean?" And then they wouldn't think about it again ever.
    Samsung was the Lance Armstrong of the cell phone industry.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    07-31-2013 05:26 PM
  14. DS1331's Avatar
    I agree with Kevin it all boils down to marketing and so they can say they have the fastest by a large margin. If it didn't come down to Samsung making money off these little white lies they wouldn't do it. I'm sure all companies take risks like this every single day and 95% of them get away with it without anyone noticing and they get a tiny edge up on their competition. It's still stupid it doesn't make me hate Samsung anymore

    Sent from my HTC One using AC Forums mobile app
    Kevin OQuinn likes this.
    07-31-2013 05:44 PM
  15. DS1331's Avatar
    Samsung was the Lance Armstrong of the cell phone industry.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    Hahaha yes, nice. LiveStrong baby

    Sent from my HTC One using AC Forums mobile app
    07-31-2013 05:45 PM
  16. slackerjack's Avatar
    Half your post is about nVidia chips, but we're supposed to ignore that? I'll just say this, Tegra 4 is impressive in SHIELD. Unless you've used one, you probably don't completely understand it. Just like everyone says about phones, try to withhold judgement until you've spent time with one. I've read all the reviews, and they're mostly positive, especially considering this is version one.

    Ok, enough about that.
    Oh I have the hardware, read the white papers and have some idea of how it'll be utilized in shield and beyond...its still I'll timed considering the price point. That and the form factor isn't going to convince any buyers to spend money on Shield over a console this fall/winter...and there are only so many dollars to go round. the tech is great, the delivery system is flawed. Put it in tablets and phones and we'll talk.

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-31-2013 05:46 PM
  17. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Oh I have the hardware, read the white papers and have some idea of how it'll be utilized in shield and beyond...its still I'll timed considering the price point. That and the form factor isn't going to convince any buyers to spend money on Shield over a console this fall/winter...and there are only so many dollars to go round. the tech is great, the delivery system is flawed. Put it in tablets and phones and we'll talk.

    Posted via Android Central App
    It doesn't compete with consoles and was never meant to. As in, the target market is different. For now.

    Toshiba actually released a tablet with T4 already. Asus has a transformer on the way. I'm very interested in those.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    07-31-2013 05:49 PM
  18. LegalAmerican's Avatar
    Actually a month or two back I made a post saying my hatred for the S4 was really stupid(I'll link it soon) and you don't buy products from Apple because they sue people? Well I don't buy from Samsung because I think there company is a scumbag for insulting iPhone users calling them dumb,paying Taiwanese students to bash the HTC One and now this purposely inflating benchmarks. I think my reason to not purchase from Apple is far more valid then your reason that Apple sues and therefore are bad.

    Posted via Android Central App
    This isn't a thread about Apple so I wasn't going to get into all the reasons. For one thing, it's the premise in which they sue. They have a ton of money so they buy technology or innovations that were developed by someone else, and then they act like it was their accomplishment and market it as such. Then they turn and abuse the patent system by applying for vague patents with the sole intention of creating a monopoly in the industry. They hinder innovation and therefore, damage the timeframe in which we can enjoy new features and developments because everyone avoids a lengthy court process that is sure to be initiated by Apple.

    They are the corporate embodiment of the rich, spoiled society who feels entitled and would shove their mother off a cliff for a buck. You don't like Samsung because they point out the FACT that many Apple users know nothing about the device in their hand, but somehow 'know' that it makes them better than anyone else (at least in my personal experience). I don't recall Samsung calling Apple buyers 'dumb'. You must hate LG also because they sent employees to Times Square to bash the S4, and you also will eventually hate all manufacturers when it is discovered that they are all either doing something similar to Samsung with benchmarks, or they are being dishonest in any number of other ways.

    To get back on topic though, my point was to re-emphasize what Kevin was saying about all companies doing this, because he was making it sound like Samsung was the only company taking the risk of lying about benchmarks. If he believed what he said before about the potential that many companies could be doing it, not only would it destroy the reputation of benchmark scores it would also level the playing field once again because consumers would know that ALL companies were lying to inflate their numbers.

    He said: "Why take the risk of potentially making the early adopting geeks mad about it?"

    MY answer in return was more or less: Yes, Samsung was stupid to do it. But since everyone is probably doing something similar, I doubt Samsung felt the risk of getting caught was too massive when everyone will probably be caught eventually. And again, I doubt they care too much when they are outselling everyone else.

    I'm not a Samsung apologist, but I do think it's ridiculous how much some people hate them for things that all companies are doing in one way or another and all equally dishonest. But it swings both ways. There's also Samsung fans who spew venom and hate for illogical reasons toward Apple, HTC, or whoever.
    Kevin OQuinn and monsieurms like this.
    07-31-2013 05:52 PM
  19. Archienj7's Avatar
    Apparently you've missed that Kevin has said at least a half dozen times that those other manufacturers probably ARE doing the same thing.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    You can bet they are. Samsung was just the first to get caught so far. It's that way in any business and they all "cheat" to an extent. I still think however something is up with my heat theory. I realize it's a quadcore and all but this phone gets REALLY hot and it's not limited to just mine. Anyone else notice this compared to others you've owned?
    07-31-2013 06:40 PM
  20. The Real X Dawg's Avatar
    Samsung was the Lance Armstrong of the cell phone industry.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    More like a LeBron James flopping.
    07-31-2013 06:52 PM
  21. aapold's Avatar
    You can bet they are. Samsung was just the first to get caught so far. It's that way in any business and they all "cheat" to an extent
    That isn't relevant. The crimes of others do not excuse the culprit. That would be like a baseball player justifying PEDs by saying "well everyone does it". Or everyone who wins does it, and if you aren't cheating you don't care enough about winning. etc. The Lance Armstrong analogy is quite valid (and the Lebron one is not).
    DS1331 likes this.
    07-31-2013 07:45 PM
  22. The Real X Dawg's Avatar
    That isn't relevant. The crimes of others do not excuse the culprit. That would be like a baseball player justifying PEDs by saying "well everyone does it". Or everyone who wins does it, and if you aren't cheating you don't care enough about winning. etc. The Lance Armstrong analogy is quite valid (and the Lebron one is not).
    Considering people constantly mention benchmarks don't matter, can be manipulated, ect. LeBron's flops fit far more than someone like Bonds/Armstrong who stole records/titles that actually matter to most fans of their respective sports. It's still cheating or gaming the system but the impact is far different.
    LegalAmerican likes this.
    07-31-2013 08:38 PM
  23. DS1331's Avatar
    The fans and MLB didn't care what bonds was on when he was hitting 74 home runs in 1 season and lifting baseball to an all time high though

    Sent from my HTC One using AC Forums mobile app
    07-31-2013 10:30 PM
  24. JHBThree's Avatar
    The fans and MLB didn't care what bonds was on when he was hitting 74 home runs in 1 season and lifting baseball to an all time high though

    Sent from my HTC One using AC Forums mobile app
    I'm not quite sure you're remembering it like it was. There was a ton of focus on whether he was cheating. I can't remember any point during that run where it wasn't brought up.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    07-31-2013 10:48 PM
  25. The Real X Dawg's Avatar
    The fans and MLB didn't care what bonds was on when he was hitting 74 home runs in 1 season and lifting baseball to an all time high though

    Sent from my HTC One using AC Forums mobile app
    I must have been imagining all those signs with needles and asterisks during Giants games. Not to mention how does a pro athlete not know what kind of supplements he was taking. Most of the fans that were in denial were Giants fans, go figure.

    And of course the media and fans will carry it to a high. It's considered the biggest record in the sport. If Bonds was clean then oh well his haters were wrong. If he turns out to be dirty that very same media will be right there to cover all the juicy fallout that comes later.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    07-31-2013 11:00 PM
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