10-27-2016 08:58 PM
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  1. edubb256's Avatar
    As has been said, none of us knows the cause. There is no inherent conflict between discussing opinions and rational conversation.

    Given recent reports that Samsung also does not yet know the cause, and cannot reproduce the problem, I expect they are conducting an open-minded,comprehensive investigation that includes a range of possibilities including design flaws, problems with manufacturing process, human error, or sabotage.
    juliesdroidsync and Bbarbie like this.
    10-26-2016 04:26 PM
  2. juliesdroidsync's Avatar
    As has been said, none of us knows the cause. There is no inherent conflict between discussing opinions and rational conversation.

    Given recent reports that Samsung also does not yet know the cause, and cannot reproduce the problem, I expect they are conducting an open-minded,comprehensive investigation that includes a range of possibilities including design flaws, problems with manufacturing process, human error, or sabotage.
    Thank you!

    Because the *fact* that some of the best minds on the planet in this industry cannot come up with an explanation is a strong indication that all the *facts* are not yet in...
    10-26-2016 04:38 PM
  3. troshs's Avatar
    I for one wanted the Note 7 BAD. I finally settled with the S7E because of having a helluva time getting the N7 and my previous phone was taking a crap (all I'm saying is LG G4). If this one gets recalled I have no idea who I'll go with as I am not an iPhone fan by any means. I'm waiting for Samsung to drop the official word on what the hell happen but I fear that we won't get that either.
    10-26-2016 04:55 PM
  4. ThrottleJohnny's Avatar
    Right. I love how people can say what it definitely is not, but can only guess at what it is.

    Samsung has released millions of Notes, and several different variations of this phone. Why now? Why this one? What's different about the way this one was created?
    10-26-2016 05:00 PM
  5. jeetu4444's Avatar
    Using my S7 Edge since april...zero issues...i think people are just spoiling the name of samsung on purpose...or they are being paid by other brands...i find funny that a phone that is out for 7 months is having issues suddenly after the note 7 issue...
    Iam really happy with my s7 edge and we have 2 in our family
    KPMcClave likes this.
    10-26-2016 07:20 PM
  6. scott_0's Avatar
    not worried even a little bit
    KPMcClave and ToddK like this.
    10-26-2016 07:40 PM
  7. Jerry Hildenbrand's Avatar
    I guess it would have been better for me to say, "Time will tell if all the facts are in." You seem supremely confident that they are! If they are, no one can argue with your logic.

    (And I don't think Samsung would get off the hook regardless of the cause, btw... it's still their phone. Fault and responsibility are not the same thing, after all. Regardless of who/what is at fault, it is still their responsibility - no getting around that.)

    ...so much for an open-minded conversation... <deep sigh>

    Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily. Agreeing with this simple principle does not make someone close-minded.
    10-26-2016 07:49 PM
  8. Jerry Hildenbrand's Avatar
    Right. I love how people can say what it definitely is not, but can only guess at what it is.

    Samsung has released millions of Notes, and several different variations of this phone. Why now? Why this one? What's different about the way this one was created?
    The battery charges at 4.7 VDC instead of 4.2 VDC. That's one difference. Lithium batteries charged at voltages higher than 4.2 volts will have a shorter lifespan and are twice as likely to lithium plate-out which will cause venting. For batteries without a vent, the result can be electron excitement and thermal runaway.

    Simplified — Overcharging can cause the electrodes to prematurely corrode which leads to a build up of pressure. Batteries without a vent hole will explode when this happens. Batteries that were within tolerance but weaker than others could do this well before others with thicker electrodes or stronger casings would.

    There isn't a question if batteries were charging at higher than recommended voltages, it's fully documented and admitted to by Samsung.

    I'm not saying this is why it happened. But it is a reasonable explanation that Samsung refuses to address.

    Edited to add: This is a measurement of the voltage from the charging circuit directly to the battery electrodes and not the input voltage.
    10-26-2016 08:02 PM
  9. mickeyboat's Avatar
    Any brand cell or tablet with these batteries is subject to a fire or worse. Just ask Boeing how many billion dollars it cost to safe them on their 787 and how many months the fleet was grounded. If you treat your cell badly like sitting on it with the chance of stressing the case, dropping it on a hard surface, etc. You may have damaged the battery. I dropped my jet pack and a few days later the case swelled up when charging and was too hot to touch. I removed the battery and replaced it. Most new phones of any brand do not allow a batt replacement.
    ToddK likes this.
    10-26-2016 09:31 PM
  10. edubb256's Avatar
    The battery charges at 4.7 VDC instead of 4.2 VDC. That's one difference.
    That is interesting! Do you have a source/link for that? I was under the impression that recent Samsungs over past few years (including the Note 7) all had a max charging voltage of 4.35.
    10-26-2016 10:16 PM
  11. Jaycemiskel's Avatar
    The battery charges at 4.7 VDC instead of 4.2 VDC. That's one difference. Lithium batteries charged at voltages higher than 4.2 volts will have a shorter lifespan and are twice as likely to lithium plate-out which will cause venting. For batteries without a vent, the result can be electron excitement and thermal runaway.

    Simplified — Overcharging can cause the electrodes to prematurely corrode which leads to a build up of pressure. Batteries without a vent hole will explode when this happens. Batteries that were within tolerance but weaker than others could do this well before others with thicker electrodes or stronger casings would.

    There isn't a question if batteries were charging at higher than recommended voltages, it's fully documented and admitted to by Samsung.

    I'm not saying this is why it happened. But it is a reasonable explanation that Samsung refuses to address.

    Edited to add: This is a measurement of the voltage from the charging circuit directly to the battery electrodes and not the input voltage.
    I'm just curious, does the S7 edge charge at 4.7 VDC? If not, I wonder why they changed it for the Note 7. And if it does, I wonder why it's not having the same issue. Just seems weird to me since the phones are so close in specs. I mean even the batteries are pretty close in size and I'm hoping they were sure the batteries in the replacements were problem free.
    10-26-2016 11:32 PM
  12. Jerry Hildenbrand's Avatar
    That is interesting! Do you have a source/link for that? I was under the impression that recent Samsungs over past few years (including the Note 7) all had a max charging voltage of 4.35.
    Maybe. Need to double check that this is a public URL. Will circle back here.

    I can tell you that it started here https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/com...tches/d8fhh2s/ and further investigation found that the charge voltage was actually higher.

    And if you see 4.35 volts that's still well outside the suggested 4.2 volt range and can cause dendrites. Samsung says they use a lithium battery rated for 4.4 volts so the batteries aren't exploding directly from overcharge, but plate-out is a property of lithium-based electrode cores.

    And this isn't to blame Samsung. They are responding to demands that batteries charge faster. I'm absolutely certain the units they tested during development were perfectly safe under the charging conditions. It furthers the notion that the companies making the batteries have a QC problem, not Samsung.

    I'll bold that part so there are no questions about what I'm thinking here. Samsung used products in good faith that failed them. They are responsible, but not at fault.

    For the record (and this is easy to find all over the front page of AC while it was happening) I think Samsung did everything they could. Both during product development and when all this started. I think the whole issue was just bad luck and hope that it makes Samsung a better company and they come back to sell more phones than they ever did in the past.
    10-27-2016 12:08 AM
  13. edubb256's Avatar
    Maybe. Need to double check that this is a public URL. Will circle back here.

    I can tell you that it started here https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/com...tches/d8fhh2s/ and further investigation found that the charge voltage was actually higher.

    And if you see 4.35 volts that's still well outside the suggested 4.2 volt range and can cause dendrites. Samsung says they use a lithium battery rated for 4.4 volts so the batteries aren't exploding directly from overcharge, but plate-out is a property of lithium-based electrode cores.
    Thanks. I'd be curious to see the link/source. It is pretty damning claim you made about 4.7 volts. Samsung has been charging to 4.35V since the S5, as the link you posted corroborates, so it is not unreasonable to conclude that 4.35 is not a problem since it is within the manufacturer's spec and there wasn't the same problem with the S5, S6, and S7. However, if they started charging the Note 7 to 4.7V as you say, with a battery manufacturer spec of 4.4V, that would be a huge deal. I don't see how they could have had the device IEEE 1725 certified.
    10-27-2016 07:40 AM
  14. jgraves1107's Avatar
    If this was the issue then why not just kill off fast charging on the N7, s7, s7e? It would save the headache.
    10-27-2016 08:17 AM
  15. KPMcClave's Avatar
    If this was the issue then why not just kill off fast charging on the N7, s7, s7e? It would save the headache.
    For the umpteenth time, there has been no issue with the S7 and S7E.
    edubb256 and ToddK like this.
    10-27-2016 08:39 AM
  16. jgraves1107's Avatar
    For the umpteenth time, there has been no issue with the S7 and S7E.
    Ok from the stand point of original date no. But just say there is an app issue that has caused recent s7's and s7e's to catch fire. That would explain why Samsung phones seem to be having issues. Mine gets so hot it ain't funny. My wife has been having an issue with her 7 and she has had it since launch. I really don't care if they go up in a blaze of glory! I like Samsung and I will keep my N5, s7e, and my N7! Just to be clear here I'm not saying it's an issue, but the rash of reports is a clear indication something is wrong and I dont believe it's the phones. Electronics have what we old school techs call a breakin period. Hot, cold , hot, cold til it settles. Therefore a device thats been active since launch like the s7e has a better chance of not going up in smoke than a new out of the box s7e device does when you have heat problems caused by some crap app that taxes the device. Components fail under extreme use when new like these reports are starting to indicate. I always run my new built pc's through software that taxes the heck out of them just for this purpose. The sooner it fails the sooner I know what junk isn't up to par. If my s7e goes up in smoke you won't hear it from me. I will just replace it and move on. My N4 did it and I just got a new one and never thought twice.
    10-27-2016 09:58 AM
  17. dejanh's Avatar
    Maybe every Note 7 that didn't explode is perfectly safe. Maybe not. That's not the point. There was something about the phone, whether a manufacturing defect, a software bug (my guess), or bad batteries that made it unsafe in general.
    You are thinking it may be a software bug, as in something that can be patched? If this turns out to be the case I think a lot of people will lose their jobs. Also, a lot of users will feel that they were deceived into thinking that they had to return their unsafe devices when all they really needed was a patch. I don't think it is software. It does not explain spontaneous combustion in off state, not unless the bug is progressively deteriorating the power circuitry in which case the Note7 has a 100% long term failure rate.
    KPMcClave and jgraves1107 like this.
    10-27-2016 10:07 AM
  18. Bbarbie's Avatar
    Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the always on display software could be the culprit but then s7 edge should have blown up since day 1 in that case. It could be the usb c in note 7 or pen poking the battery inside? As far as s7 edge I'm at loss on why it would blow up... I can only think of recent manufacturer flaw or user damage that user won't disclose. My s7 edge does not get hot.
    10-27-2016 10:28 AM
  19. jgraves1107's Avatar
    You are thinking it may be a software bug, as in something that can be patched? If this turns out to be the case I think a lot of people will lose their jobs. Also, a lot of users will feel that they were deceived into thinking that they had to return their unsafe devices when all they really needed was a patch. I don't think it is software. It does not explain spontaneous combustion in off state, not unless the bug is progressively deteriorating the power circuitry in which case the Note7 has a 100% long term failure rate.
    If damage is done even after it's off it can already be on it's way out the door so to speak. Where I work when we have surges with power my electronics don't always fail. Sometimes weeks later they start smoking. That is why if a bad app does damage it can cause failure later rather than right then. Verizon has called me just to tell me there have been no new reports keep your N7. I dont think it's just Samsung having battery failure as of late. Just media is not making it public. My father had his iPhone 6 plus go up in smoke because he dropped it. They gave him a new and the media never new it. It was and is blown way out of proportion. Samsung should have never done a second recall. It would have been better to pay these people off and hand them the iPhone 7 they wanted. It's a shame we as customers suffer for those that just want fame.
    10-27-2016 10:29 AM
  20. NexusGirlX's Avatar
    Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the always on display software could be the culprit but then s7 edge should have blown up since day 1 in that case. It could be the usb c in note 7 or pen poking the battery inside? As far as s7 edge I'm at loss on why it would blow up... I can only think of recent manufacturer flaw or user damage that user won't disclose. My s7 edge does not get hot.
    Mine gets warm when I charge it but it does not get hot.
    10-27-2016 10:31 AM
  21. dejanh's Avatar
    If damage is done even after it's off it can already be on it's way out the door so to speak. Where I work when we have surges with power my electronics don't always fail. Sometimes weeks later they start smoking. That is why if a bad app does damage it can cause failure later rather than right then. Verizon has called me just to tell me there have been no new reports keep your N7. I dont think it's just Samsung having battery failure as of late. Just media is not making it public. My father had his iPhone 6 plus go up in smoke because he dropped it. They gave him a new and the media never new it. It was and is blown way out of proportion. Samsung should have never done a second recall. It would have been better to pay these people off and hand them the iPhone 7 they wanted. It's a shame we as customers suffer for those that just want fame.
    The bolded part is kind of my point. If such software is baked into the OS, that means that 100% of Note7 devices will eventually go up in smoke. There is also a very high probability that the new S8 and Note 8 devices will be affected since the software is likely to make its way over to the new devices. It would be incredibly bad for everyone if this is the case. I find it very, very unlikely.

    The battery charges at 4.7 VDC instead of 4.2 VDC. That's one difference. Lithium batteries charged at voltages higher than 4.2 volts will have a shorter lifespan and are twice as likely to lithium plate-out which will cause venting. For batteries without a vent, the result can be electron excitement and thermal runaway.

    Edited to add: This is a measurement of the voltage from the charging circuit directly to the battery electrodes and not the input voltage.
    Any update on this? Do you have a link to the source? I'd be very curious to see this.
    10-27-2016 11:02 AM
  22. jgraves1107's Avatar
    The bolded part is kind of my point. If such software is baked into the OS, that means that 100% of Note7 devices will eventually go up in smoke. There is also a very high probability that the new S8 and Note 8 devices will be affected since the software is likely to make its way over to the new devices. It would be incredibly bad for everyone if this is the case. I find it very, very unlikely.
    I don't mean the phones software. I mean apps that we download.
    10-27-2016 11:17 AM
  23. dejanh's Avatar
    I don't mean the phones software. I mean apps that we download.
    That would be better (?), but still not good. Either way, I think that this is not correct. I can see a firmware level fault perhaps under certain conditions, but not software.
    KPMcClave likes this.
    10-27-2016 11:26 AM
  24. jgraves1107's Avatar
    Well I have had to charge my N7 3 times today alone and I just can't buy that the issue is with charging. Now if it were a cheap cable and block then I can say yes I think that would make mine go up in flames. I don't do cheap cables though.
    10-27-2016 01:04 PM
  25. Android Optimizer's Avatar
    Well I have had to charge my N7 3 times today alone and I just can't buy that the issue is with charging. .
    What are you doing that makes it that you have to recharge three times in one day? On both my original Note7 and replacement Note7 I could go four days without needing to charge...
    10-27-2016 07:27 PM
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