04-07-2017 02:08 AM
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  1. Aquila's Avatar
    Well by that logic, DisplayMate thinks this is the best display they've ever seen. Does that mean it's more accurate?
    No way to know because they didn't provide measurements or any justification for their argument. They gave it amazing ratings on a bunch of related categories, but that doesn't help any of us answer the question of what is actually the most accurate. And as pointed out a few times, Samsung can't claim the throne until they're running a more accurate display AND on Android O. So we're several months, possibly a year away from Apple losing the crown on this and that's assuming that they make no improvements themselves. As @Kevin OQuinn pointed out, the space between Apple and "perfect" is incredibly small, so it's not easy to slide in between. We'll know soon enough whether or not Samsung accomplished that.
    04-04-2017 12:43 PM
  2. smooth4lyfe's Avatar
    Here's the most recent charts combined with the GretacMacbeth ColorChecker Accuracy results for 24 measured devices.

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...afe1027954.jpg

    Using the LG G5 as a zero, given its horrible display, everything else can be scaled to be measured as a percentage of best, or perfect. The iPhone 7+ is 84% of perfect, the Note 7 was 75%.

    If the S8/S8+ have an average Delta of .95 or less, they will be the new best. We don't know yet if they do.
    Different sites seem to show different results, so there is no "true" list as to which is the best. I usually trust DisplayMate because I know they are well known and they do deep testing...not sure about the other sites
    04-04-2017 12:44 PM
  3. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Well it's true that DisplayMate doesn't compare phone, but it did say the S7 screen color was very accurate, so that should say something

    Galaxy S7 and S7 Edge OLED Display Technology Shoot-Out

    "The AMOLED Photo screen mode on the Galaxy S7 provides a very accurate calibration to the Adobe RGB standard, which is rarely available in consumers displays, and is very useful for high-end digital photography and other advanced imaging applications. The measured Absolute Color Accuracy of the AMOLED Photo screen mode for the Galaxy S7 is 1.6 JNCD, which is very high color accuracy. See this Figure for an explanation and visual definition of JNCD and the detailed Color Accuracy Plots showing the measured Color Errors for 41 Reference Colors distributed throughout the entire Color Gamut. There are very few consumer displays that can accurately reproduce the Adobe RGB Gamut, so this is a significant plus for serious photography enthusiasts. See the Color Accuracy section and the detailed Color Accuracy Plots for measurements and details."
    That actually highlights the issue with the OS. On iPhone, an app can say "I want to use xxxxx color space" and the OS just does it, no user intervention required. On Samsung, the user has to change, but then how do you know that the app itself is behaving the right way? Using what you posted, does the Adobe app (unspecified) know that the phone is in Photo mode and then display images in that color space? Or does it do what every other Android app does and stick with sRGB? This ignores the question of where the content is coming from to take advantage of Adobe RGB color space (which is not the same as DCI-P3 or rec2020).

    Another example. On the iPhone 7/7 Plus Instagram supports the wider color gamut. When the app is opened the OS automatically goes to the correct color space for the app, no user intervention required. The experience is further improved by the iPhone camera capturing images in that very same wider color space (the same as the display that Instagram has support for).

    Right now, the Apple way is far more user friendly. Hopefully when O is released this experience is matched and app developers pick it up quickly.
    04-04-2017 12:49 PM
  4. Aquila's Avatar
    Different sites seem to show different results, so there is no "true" list as to which is the best. I usually trust DisplayMate because I know they are well known and they do deep testing...not sure about the other sites
    DisplayMate didn't provide any results though ... so we have no idea on what criteria they are making any claims, nor any details of what evidence would support their claims.

    Anandtech is the review standard for display analysis, GPU/CPU performance and a few other data points because they actually publish the results and explain how/why each device performs the way it does relative to those tests. Similar to the way that DXOMark is the review standard for cameras, despite there being other sites that also measure camera results. It's the transparency on the results, disclosure of details and thorough analysis that matter - DisplayMate falls very short here because we have to take them on their word that they know what they're talking about - when, if they're saying a less accurate display is better than another, they clearly do not.

    There was a pretty strained discussion about the Note 7 display when it came out and DisplayMate was found to be either misidentifying or misrepresenting several aspects of the Note 7 display during that, so it's not surprising to me that they could be missing the mark here as well.
    04-04-2017 12:50 PM
  5. smooth4lyfe's Avatar
    That actually highlights the issue with the OS. On iPhone, an app can say "I want to use xxxxx color space" and the OS just does it, no user intervention required. On Samsung, the user has to change, but then how do you know that the app itself is behaving the right way? Using what you posted, does the Adobe app (unspecified) know that the phone is in Photo mode and then display images in that color space? Or does it do what every other Android app does and stick with sRGB? This ignores the question of where the content is coming from to take advantage of Adobe RGB color space (which is not the same as DCI-P3 or rec2020).

    Another example. On the iPhone 7/7 Plus Instagram supports the wider color gamut. When the app is opened the OS automatically goes to the correct color space for the app, no user intervention required. The experience is further improved by the iPhone camera capturing images in that very same wider color space (the same as the display that Instagram has support for).

    Right now, the Apple way is far more user friendly. Hopefully when O is released this experience is matched and app developers pick it up quickly.
    Eh I think what your saying is not about color accuracy but how the OS handles colors/color managament. It be more fair to say if the S7 Edge and the iPhone 7+ Both opened the same photo after all processing is done, and then test it there. As for the OS automatically or manually managing when or how the color is shown is a different story.
    04-04-2017 12:53 PM
  6. Aquila's Avatar
    Eh I think what your saying is not about color accuracy but how the OS handles colors/color managament. It be more fair to say if the S7 Edge and the iPhone 7+ Both opened the same photo after all processing is done, and then test it there. As for the OS automatically or manually managing when or how the color is shown is a different story.
    The explanation above is indicating that there are two factors: 1 the capabilities of the display, how well it is calibrated per type of content, or gamut used and 2 the capabilities of the OS in terms of how often the correct gamut is being chosen for the correct content. Samsung and Apple are both very close on point 1; for 2016 Apple pulled ahead, we don't yet know if that's changed. Samsung and Apple are NOT close on point 2, because Samsung is being hamstrung by the capabilities of Android in this factor, which won't be resolved until Android O is on Samsung devices AND developers are properly making use of the new and improved functionality.
    04-04-2017 12:56 PM
  7. smooth4lyfe's Avatar
    DisplayMate didn't provide any results though ... so we have no idea on what criteria they are making any claims, nor any details of what evidence would support their claims.

    Anandtech is the review standard for display analysis, GPU/CPU performance and a few other data points because they actually publish the results and explain how/why each device performs the way it does relative to those tests. Similar to the way that DXOMark is the review standard for cameras, despite there being other sites that also measure camera results. It's the transparency on the results, disclosure of details and thorough analysis that matter - DisplayMate falls very short here because we have to take them on their word that they know what they're talking about - when, if they're saying a less accurate display is better than another, they clearly do not.

    There was a pretty strained discussion about the Note 7 display when it came out and DisplayMate was found to be either misidentifying or misrepresenting several aspects of the Note 7 display during that, so it's not surprising to me that they could be missing the mark here as well.
    DisplayMate does show results and how they test the displays

    DisplayMate Samsung Galaxy S7 Color Gamuts

    DisplayMate Reference Colors and Galaxy S7 Absolute Color Accuracy Plots

    DisplayMate Light Spectra for the Samsung Galaxy S7

    I just wished they compared it to other phones side by side, but you can look at how they rate the iPhone 7+ and the S7 Edge on their individual pages
    04-04-2017 12:56 PM
  8. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Different sites seem to show different results, so there is no "true" list as to which is the best. I usually trust DisplayMate because I know they are well known and they do deep testing...not sure about the other sites
    I think we've gone back and forth on this point before.

    DisplayMate has a particular business model. That model involved selling services/methodologies/equipment to outside parties to assist with display performance. Obviously no one knows who their customers are, but the business model implies that they take cash for services from companies that make the products they test and release reports on.

    The business model of a review site like Anandtech is well known, and the separation of business/editorial aspects of those sites is also well known.

    My opinion is that the potential of a conflict of interest is greater with displaymate than it is with a site like Anandtech. That leads me to have more trust in the test results from Anandtech.

    Do I ignore displaymate test results? No. Just like I don't ignore the results from any other site that performs color accuracy testing.
    04-04-2017 12:56 PM
  9. Aquila's Avatar
    DisplayMate does show results and how they test the displays

    DisplayMate Samsung Galaxy S7 Color Gamuts

    DisplayMate Reference Colors and Galaxy S7 Absolute Color Accuracy Plots

    DisplayMate Light Spectra for the Samsung Galaxy S7

    I just wished they compared it to other phones side by side, but you can look at how they rate the iPhone 7+ and the S7 Edge on their individual pages
    Correct, I linked one of those earlier - we get the charts and methodology, but not the actual results. I suppose we could draw our own grid lines on their chart, write down our observations of their measurements and calculate our own delta - or they could just give us the number.
    04-04-2017 01:00 PM
  10. smooth4lyfe's Avatar
    Correct, I linked one of those earlier - we get the charts and methodology, but not the actual results. I suppose we could draw our own grid lines on their chart, write down our observations of their measurements and calculate our own delta - or they could just give us the number.
    The Overall Assessment is here: Galaxy S7 and S7 Edge OLED Display Technology Shoot-Out

    They have the S7 Edge display an A (Note that the S8 got an A+, their highest grade)

    "The Galaxy S7 display delivers excellent
    image quality, has both Color Accurate and
    Wide Color Gamut Vivid Color modes, has
    high Screen Brightness and low Reflectance,
    has good Viewing Angles, and is an all around
    top performing Smartphone display."

    Here, DisplayMate gave iPhone 7 an A too, but says its the best LCD display they have tested
    iPhone 7 Display Technology Shoot-Out

    "The display on the iPhone 7 is a Truly Impressive Top Performing Display and a major upgrade to the display on the iPhone 6. It is by far the best performing mobile LCD display that we have ever tested, and it breaks many display performance records."
    04-04-2017 01:08 PM
  11. Aquila's Avatar
    The Overall Assessment is here: Galaxy S7 and S7 Edge OLED Display Technology Shoot-Out

    They have the S7 Edge display an A (Note that the S8 got an A+, their highest grade)

    "The Galaxy S7 display delivers excellent
    image quality, has both Color Accurate and
    Wide Color Gamut Vivid Color modes, has
    high Screen Brightness and low Reflectance,
    has good Viewing Angles, and is an all around
    top performing Smartphone display."

    Here, DisplayMate gave iPhone 7 an A too, but says its the best LCD display they have tested
    iPhone 7 Display Technology Shoot-Out

    "The display on the iPhone 7 is a Truly Impressive Top Performing Display and a major upgrade to the display on the iPhone 6. It is by far the best performing mobile LCD display that we have ever tested, and it breaks many display performance records."
    They do say that, but those statements are worthless without the details to back it up. That's why they're not really used, because there's no way for us to replicate their conclusion based on the same data. Which is why other analysis, such as that at anandtech is more valuable. DisplayMate could be correct (on the Note 7 they're simply wrong), but then we'd have no way of knowing whether they are correct or not.
    04-04-2017 01:13 PM
  12. smooth4lyfe's Avatar
    They do say that, but those statements are worthless without the details to back it up. That's why they're not really used, because there's no way for us to replicate their conclusion based on the same data. Which is why other analysis, such as that at anandtech is more valuable. DisplayMate could be correct (on the Note 7 they're simply wrong), but then we'd have no way of knowing whether they are correct or not.
    Eh, this debate could do on for days lol but I mean I guess I will say both have really good displays, and to an untrained eye you couldn't tell the different from either. I still think the S8 will surpass the iPhone 7 though but lets see what Anandtech says about the S8 since DisplayMate has already released their results
    Aquila likes this.
    04-04-2017 01:26 PM
  13. Aquila's Avatar
    Eh, this debate could do on for days lol but I mean I guess I will say both have really good displays, and to an untrained eye you couldn't tell the different from either. I still think the S8 will surpass the iPhone 7 though but lets see what Anandtech says about the S8 since DisplayMate has already released their results
    To be sure, most humans will never be able to tell the difference on color accuracy among the chart toppers, especially when Android gets color management.
    smooth4lyfe likes this.
    04-04-2017 01:30 PM
  14. EMGSM's Avatar
    Hmmm I thought DisplayMate gave the S7 (or S7 Edge) the best smartphone display prior tom the S8
    You're both right. When the S7 came out it was the best OLED display and when iPhone 7 came out it was the best LCD display. Check out the links:

    S7 link - https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/2...led-panel-ever

    iPhone 7 link - DisplayMate analysis: Apple iPhone 7 has the best LCD display ever tested | ZDNet
    04-04-2017 01:35 PM
  15. screwhead728's Avatar
    Why argue about this? Anybody that sees the display on a Samsung versus an iPhone will always say Samsung. The reviews doesn't matter when it comes to likes. Samsung is not switching to LCD, Apple is switching to OLED (provided by Samsung).
    dixkayp87 likes this.
    04-04-2017 01:42 PM
  16. Aquila's Avatar
    Why argue about this? Anybody that sees the display on a Samsung versus an iPhone will always say Samsung. The reviews doesn't matter when it comes to likes. Samsung is not switching to LCD, Apple is switching to OLED (provided by Samsung).
    Nerds gonna nerd. We have to talk about something.
    screwhead728, teristark and DWS44 like this.
    04-04-2017 01:50 PM
  17. dario12v's Avatar
    Accurate and best mean the same thing in displays unless there is a major problem, such as pixel configuration, display quality or power usage, etc.
    This is a statement from
    Raymond Soneira displaymate's President regarding the note 7 screen
    Best screen ever tested period.
    Attached Thumbnails DisplayMate gives the S8 the best screen rating of any smartphone-13177.jpg  
    04-04-2017 02:48 PM
  18. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    This is a statement from
    Raymond Soneira displaymate's President regarding the note 7 screen
    Best screen ever tested period.
    The word "best" is nowhere in that quote.
    04-04-2017 02:52 PM
  19. Aquila's Avatar
    This is a statement from
    Raymond Soneira displaymate's President regarding the note 7 screen
    Best screen ever tested period.
    Sure, that doesn't actually say best screen ever tested, it says "most innovative and high-performance display that we have ever tested". Best means most accurate, most innovative and high-performance could mean anything, which is impossible to determine without the context.

    If they did mean to say it's the best, then that could be because the Note 7 came out a month prior to the iPhone 7, so the Note 7 could have been the best display around, for a month.

    According to Anandtech's results, that would be true so long as we were willing to ignore the iPhone SE's existence, which most of us probably are. This also leads to another mistake of theirs, if the S7 Edge was the previous winner at DisplayMate, they ignored the 5X, which is not as easy as ignoring the SE.

    The only other way they could mean that it was the best, would be for them to not know what they're talking about. I think we give them the benefit of the doubt that they just hadn't tested the unreleased iPhone yet, but given the S7 mistake, we don't have to give them that benefit, we just can.


    Why is it that whenever people say "blah blah blah, period" they're almost always wrong?
    04-04-2017 02:53 PM
  20. dario12v's Avatar
    Sure, that doesn't actually say best screen ever tested, it says "most innovative and high-performance display that we have ever tested". Best means most accurate, most innovative and high-performance could mean anything, which is impossible to determine without the context.

    If they did mean to say it's the best, then that could be because the Note 7 came out a month prior to the iPhone 7, so the Note 7 could have been the best display around, for a month.

    According to Anandtech's results, that would be true so long as we were willing to ignore the iPhone SE's existence, which most of us probably are. This also leads to another mistake of theirs, if the S7 Edge was the previous winner at DisplayMate, they ignored the 5X, which is not as easy as ignoring the SE.

    The only other way they could mean that it was the best, would be for them to not know what they're talking about. I think we give them the benefit of the doubt that they just hadn't tested the unreleased iPhone yet, but given the S7 mistake, we don't have to give them that benefit, we just can.


    Why is it that whenever people say "blah blah blah, period" they're almost always wrong?
    So... The most innovative and
    The most HIGH PERFORMING is ever tested is not the best???
    04-04-2017 03:13 PM
  21. Aquila's Avatar
    So... The most innovative and
    The most HIGH PERFORMANCE is not ever tested is not the best???
    That is correct, unless they meant it in the way described in the post you quoted. Because best = most accurate. So saying most high performance ever tested, if they do not mean best, doesn't have anything to do with best. If they do intend it to mean best, then it is either only because they hadn't yet tested the better iPhone 7 or because they were mistaken.

    Either way, the obvious fact is that the iPhone 7 display was better and it might still be the best available, because we don't know yet how exactly the S8/S8+ ranks up. So until we have that data, the iPhone 7 is the best. If you believe they meant the Note 7 was, then you have to choose between they were right for a month, then something else was better or that they were wrong. So were they accidentally temporarily correct or were they justifiably temporarily correct?
    04-04-2017 03:15 PM
  22. Adranalyne's Avatar
    That's the fundamental disagreement right there. "Because best = most accurate". There's more to a display than just accuracy, but you've already highlighted that when you mentioned how the OS handles the display. The ability to change resolution or have control over color balance is important on the software side. Being able to change display modes in general is important.

    So regardless of whether the S8 beats out the iPhone 7 in accuracy when Anandtech gets ahold of it, there's other factors here and 'best' is just subjective on this subject.

    That is correct, unless they meant it in the way described in the post you quoted. Because best = most accurate. So saying most high performance ever tested, if they do not mean best, doesn't have anything to do with best. If they do intend it to mean best, then it is either only because they hadn't yet tested the better iPhone 7 or because they were mistaken.

    Either way, the obvious fact is that the iPhone 7 display was better and it might still be the best available, because we don't know yet how exactly the S8/S8+ ranks up. So until we have that data, the iPhone 7 is the best. If you believe they meant the Note 7 was, then you have to choose between they were right for a month, then something else was better or that they were wrong. So were they accidentally temporarily correct or were they justifiably temporarily correct?
    04-04-2017 03:40 PM
  23. Aquila's Avatar
    That's the fundamental disagreement right there. "Because best = most accurate". There's more to a display than just accuracy, but you've already highlighted that when you mentioned how the OS handles the display. The ability to change resolution or have control over color balance is important on the software side. Being able to change display modes in general is important.

    So regardless of whether the S8 beats out the iPhone 7 in accuracy when Anandtech gets ahold of it, there's other factors here and 'best' is just subjective on this subject.
    To a point, yes, but as indicated earlier it's really two separate things that we can put together if needed. 1) which display is the most accurate in test conditions 2) which display is most accurate across the spectrum of conditions

    Everything else, from it being curved, to power management, etc.. these are all things that are important, but they're not part of what we're talking about when we say "X has the best display". That statement is saying either 1 or 1 & 2 from the above. Currently (again, still waiting on information about the S8/S8+), the iPhone 7 is the best display by both 1 and 1 & 2. Prior to the iPhone 7, the iPhone SE was the best on 1, etc.

    So it's not subjective, it's more being clear on whether something is always more accurate or only more accurate in test conditions. Once everything is on Android O or higher then only 1 will matter.

    Also, as everyone seems to acknowledge, humans can't really tell the difference. So any few random people could prefer whatever they want over anything else, but it doesn't change the ranking by measurement.
    04-04-2017 03:51 PM
  24. racedog's Avatar
    I just read the report from Displaymate and here is a direct quote from their concluding statement, "So the Galaxy S8 becomes the Best Performing Smartphone Display, earning DisplayMate’s highest ever A+ grade."

    If it's their highest grade ever then it follows that it is their best display ever. Ok, let the nitpicking begin!
    04-04-2017 06:14 PM
  25. Aquila's Avatar
    I just read the report from Displaymate and here is a direct quote from their concluding statement, "So the Galaxy S8 becomes the Best Performing Smartphone Display, earning DisplayMate’s highest ever A+ grade."

    If it's their highest grade ever then it follows that it is their best display ever. Ok, let the nitpicking begin!
    Best performing is not necessary best, unless they mean best performing in the category of accuracy. This still goes back to the same two possibilities as before: Either they're right, in which case we don't know that yet and won't know until we have the results in front of us... or they're wrong, in which case we won't know until we have the results in front of us.
    04-04-2017 06:46 PM
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