04-07-2017 02:08 AM
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  1. Adranalyne's Avatar
    So are we going to create an algorithm that encompasses display properties (accuracy, we could throw efficiency here, but that's new) with subjective device properties and then create a weighting system to give us a final value of which device is best? Who will be proposing the weights? Who decides which metrics are included and which are not? Should objective measurements weigh more heavily than subjective values? When the algorithm is finished, if it disagrees with the subjective critique of display mate, will they be amending their methodologies to get in line with a newly defined mathematical method of assessing and ranking quality? I'm obviously playing devil's advocate here - because what this proposition is, is essentially what they did, with no reason to do so (we already had a methodology that works wonderfully) nor any justification to user their made up processes over any other set of made up processes.
    They test a wide variety of display properties, incorporate how they function on a mobile device, and grade those areas accordingly. I feel like you should probably visit the website and get familiar with what they do. That said, they aren't the be-all end-all of display grading or anything. It's pretty evident that you see this as numbers and take subjectivity out of it almost completely. If the display is more accurate, because we can quantify that, then it must be better. We can't quantify most of the other things so they shouldn't have any bearing on this. I would agree with that if we weren't talking about mobile displays, but we are.

    Customization is how the OEM utilizes the display. You can't alter the resolution of the iPhone 7. You can on the S8. You can't alter the color balance on the iPhone 7. You can on the S8. You can't alter display modes on the iPhone 7. You can on the S8. The S8 can achieve a higher max brightness and kicks in if you're in direct sunlight. The iPhone 7 does not do that, nor can it get that bright. These are things, either done automatically or by the user, that can affect how you use the display, how efficient it is, and how accurate/inaccurate it is.
    04-05-2017 01:45 PM
  2. Aquila's Avatar
    Customization is how the OEM utilizes the display. You can't alter the resolution of the iPhone 7. You can on the S8. You can't alter the color balance on the iPhone 7. You can on the S8. You can't alter display modes on the iPhone 7. You can on the S8. The S8 can achieve a higher max brightness and kicks in if you're in direct sunlight. The iPhone 7 does not do that, nor can it get that bright. These are things, either done automatically or by the user, that can affect how you use the display, how efficient it is, and how accurate/inaccurate it is.
    Ok, thanks I kinda thought this is what you were referring to. On iOS display modes handle them selves because iOS has OS level color management. So they type of content dictates which mode is used, meaning you're always getting the best possible combination. Android is getting that in Android O. Personally I prefer it that way than having to choose it myself HOWEVER, a big caveat there, is that most of the best displays on Android do not have the most accurate display mode selected for the UI in general as a default setting and many of them require the user to go into display settings or even developer settings to make the correction. If that isn't corrected in Android O (right now on the preview that setting is still in the developer options), then the option needs to remain accessible to the user.
    04-05-2017 01:51 PM
  3. Adranalyne's Avatar
    Ok, thanks I kinda thought this is what you were referring to. On iOS display modes handle them selves because iOS has OS level color management. So they type of content dictates which mode is used, meaning you're always getting the best possible combination. Android is getting that in Android O. Personally I prefer it that way than having to choose it myself HOWEVER, a big caveat there, is that most of the best displays on Android do not have the most accurate display mode selected for the UI in general as a default setting and many of them require the user to go into display settings or even developer settings to make the correction. If that isn't corrected in Android O (right now on the preview that setting is still in the developer options), then the option needs to remain accessible to the user.
    The point is that you may not find the most accurate colors to be the most aesthetically pleasing. Being able to change that at any time to your own preference is very helpful. Being able to customize your resolution to optimize battery life is also very helpful. On the S8, you can also edit the color balance to your own liking as well.
    jamesrick80 likes this.
    04-05-2017 02:44 PM
  4. Aquila's Avatar
    The point is that you may not find the most accurate colors to be the most aesthetically pleasing.
    This is one of the things that we argue about on camera shootouts too. Some reviewers will routinely say, "X was more accurate, but Iliked Y more". That reviewer is absolutely entitled to their own opinions and to like what they like and whatever, but in displays and in cameras, whatever is most accurate is actually the better device. A display and a camera both have the same job in this respect - to create the most perfectly accurate representation of the input as possible. If users want to change it from there, totally cool that's up to them. But the default functionality = as accurate as possible. This is why most accurate = best.
    04-05-2017 02:52 PM
  5. Adranalyne's Avatar
    This is one of the things that we argue about on camera shootouts too. Some reviewers will routinely say, "X was more accurate, but Iliked Y more". That reviewer is absolutely entitled to their own opinions and to like what they like and whatever, but in displays and in cameras, whatever is most accurate is actually the better device. A display and a camera both have the same job in this respect - to create the most perfectly accurate representation of the input as possible. If users want to change it from there, totally cool that's up to them. But the default functionality = as accurate as possible. This is why most accurate = best.
    In this instance, regardless of the differences in accuracy that can be measured, who's going to be able to tell? This isn't some landslide blowout on the Apple side to the point where it's immediately noticeable. At this point, all I could confirm is that on their absolute color accuracy test, the iPhone has the record. That doesn't mean that other tests regarding accuracy overall aren't in the S8's favor. What I can say is that devoid of all of that, considering how close it would be on either side, the other factors play heavily on which one performs better overall. That goes to the S8. Having choices on how you want your display to act is better than not having them at all.
    04-05-2017 03:03 PM
  6. Aquila's Avatar
    In this instance, regardless of the differences in accuracy that can be measured, who's going to be able to tell? This isn't some landslide blowout on the Apple side to the point where it's immediately noticeable. At this point, all I could confirm is that on their absolute color accuracy test, the iPhone has the record. That doesn't mean that other tests regarding accuracy overall aren't in the S8's favor. What I can say is that devoid of all of that, considering how close it would be on either side, the other factors play heavily on which one performs better overall. That goes to the S8. Having choices on how you want your display to act is better than not having them at all.
    I think I get what you're saying and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but here's how I interpret what I think you think you're saying: "I know it's less accurate, but it has other things I prefer so it is better". And if that included a "for me" at the end, it'd just be an opinion and we'd all say cheers and godbless Because then I could read, "I know it's not as good, but I like it better anyways" and sure, that's cool. But what I'm actually reading is, "I know it's not as good, but it has other factors that make me prefer it and therefore it is the best". As if we're trying to attach best based on tangential preferences, rather than what is objectively the best. But unfortunately, that's not how the measurement works. You're absolutely right that we're not, most of us, going to be able to tell the difference in accuracy between one panel and the other - but our inability to perceive it with the naked eye doesn't actually impact which one is nearer to perfect. All it changes is whether or not that nearness (or not) impacts our desire to use it over another - and for you it doesn't. For me it probably doesn't either - but that's missing the point. What we as individuals, or even as groups prefer cannot impact the actual results.

    So between panel A & B, A > B is either true or it isn't. And I like A more than B is either true or it isn't. But those statements are not related to each other and do not influence each other, at least not in the latter influencing the former. Depending on the degree, the former could easily influence the latter. See where I'm coming from?
    04-05-2017 03:15 PM
  7. Adranalyne's Avatar
    I think I get what you're saying and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but here's how I interpret what I think you think you're saying: "I know it's less accurate, but it has other things I prefer so it is better". And if that included a "for me" at the end, it'd just be an opinion and we'd all say cheers and godbless Because then I could read, "I know it's not as good, but I like it better anyways" and sure, that's cool. But what I'm actually reading is, "I know it's not as good, but it has other factors that make me prefer it and therefore it is the best". As if we're trying to attach best based on tangential preferences, rather than what is objectively the best. But unfortunately, that's not how the measurement works. You're absolutely right that we're not, most of us, going to be able to tell the difference in accuracy between one panel and the other - but our inability to perceive it with the naked eye doesn't actually impact which one is nearer to perfect. All it changes is whether or not that nearness (or not) impacts our desire to use it over another - and for you it doesn't. For me it probably doesn't either - but that's missing the point. What we as individuals, or even as groups prefer cannot impact the actual results.

    So between panel A & B, A > B is either true or it isn't. And I like A more than B is either true or it isn't. But those statements are not related to each other and do not influence each other, at least not in the latter influencing the former. Depending on the degree, the former could easily influence the latter. See where I'm coming from?
    What I'm saying is that in one test that I can discern so far, the iPhone rated higher. They have a multitude of tests. They've reviewed both devices. They rated the S8 higher overall. Accuracy is not the overall benchmark on how a display is rated. Efficiency, viewing angles, viewing in high ambient light, HDR capabilities, etc. If that was the case, why would a company who does this specifically rate anything else but accuracy? They rate everything because it's important to determining the quality of the display as a whole and how it functions.
    04-05-2017 03:24 PM
  8. Aquila's Avatar
    What I'm saying is that in one test that I can discern so far, the iPhone rated higher. They have a multitude of tests. They've reviewed both devices. They rated the S8 higher overall. Accuracy is not the overall benchmark on how a display is rated. Efficiency, viewing angles, viewing in high ambient light, HDR capabilities, etc. If that was the case, why would a company who does this specifically rate anything else but accuracy? They rate everything because it's important to determining the quality of the display as a whole and how it functions.
    That's a huge reason that display Mate results are considered, but not their analysis and why we wait for an objective party to publish the actual results in a way we can compare and contrast what's actually best, rather than taking a random entity's word for it. This whole time I've been saying, "cool, let's wait and find out if it's true or not".
    04-05-2017 03:28 PM
  9. Adranalyne's Avatar
    That's a huge reason that display Mate results are considered, but not their analysis and why we wait for an objective party to publish the actual results in a way we can compare and contrast what's actually best, rather than taking a random entity's word for it. This whole time I've been saying, "cool, let's wait and find out if it's true or not".
    Their results are published. It's just not in a nice and easy graph like Anandtech listing most relevant phones. So you really don't have to wait for anything, but okay.
    04-05-2017 03:35 PM
  10. Aquila's Avatar
    Their results are published. It's just not in a nice and easy graph like Anandtech listing most relevant phones. So you really don't have to wait for anything, but okay.
    In order to use the chart, we have to draw our own grid lines, estimate the values for each of the 41 or however many points they chose on to display, list those values and calculate an average delta. Steps 1 and 2 of that 4 part process are rife with chances to be make mistakes (almost 100% of people will make mistakes) and since the margin of difference between the top contenders, being exactly correct on all of the values and calculations is critical. Dm could do it for us, but they didn't. We don't need a chart from DM to compare it to each device, we know the values of the other devices, we just need that average delta on the different categories of color accuracy. Since that's absent, we'd at best be guessing. And guessing is worse than taking their word for it without evidence, so the only thing available to do is wait.
    04-05-2017 03:43 PM
  11. Aquila's Avatar
    @Adranalyne good conversation, but I'm out for a while. I think we're going in circles and we can do this again in 6 months when the Note 8 comes out
    04-05-2017 03:59 PM
  12. Adranalyne's Avatar
    In order to use the chart, we have to draw our own grid lines, estimate the values for each of the 41 or however many points they chose on to display, list those values and calculate an average delta. Steps 1 and 2 of that 4 part process are rife with chances to be make mistakes (almost 100% of people will make mistakes) and since the margin of difference between the top contenders, being exactly correct on all of the values and calculations is critical. Dm could do it for us, but they didn't. We don't need a chart from DM to compare it to each device, we know the values of the other devices, we just need that average delta on the different categories of color accuracy. Since that's absent, we'd at best be guessing. And guessing is worse than taking their word for it without evidence, so the only thing available to do is wait.
    They tested both devices under the same conditions they always test their devices. Both results are published. You can compare and contrast those results yourself. If those results weren't consistent, how could they assign overall grades and compare them with past devices? The S8 got an A+ and the iPhone 7 got an A when testing the same criteria. I really like both phones so I don't really have any skin in the game, but it sounds to me like you're insistent that the iPhone is better even if it really isn't.
    04-05-2017 04:00 PM
  13. Aquila's Avatar
    I really like both phones so I don't really have any skin in the game, but it sounds to me like you're insistent that the iPhone is better even if it really isn't.
    No, I'm insistent that I don't know if it is or not and would like more information before making that decision
    04-05-2017 04:10 PM
  14. dario12v's Avatar
    Hey Aquila
    If you absolutely have to see the word "BEST"
    Here it is
    Cheers
    Attached Thumbnails DisplayMate gives the S8 the best screen rating of any smartphone-13203.jpg  
    Viscomi4444 and EMGSM like this.
    04-05-2017 06:12 PM
  15. Viscomi4444's Avatar
    Lol this comment t section is funny. A guy who dishes it out to other people can't admit that he's wrong. This isn't a debate. In the very beginning you said the iphone7 was the best and it wasn't. Not by a long shot. The s8 is the highest grade they ever gave.
    04-05-2017 07:29 PM
  16. ScottsoNJ's Avatar
    You can all argue about who is best. They gave it an A+ which no other phone has ever gotten. And if Apple had/has the best display why on earth are they going oled? Why not just keep the lcd screens they use?
    04-05-2017 09:05 PM
  17. Aquila's Avatar
    Lol this comment t section is funny. A guy who dishes it out to other people can't admit that he's wrong. This isn't a debate. In the very beginning you said the iphone7 was the best and it wasn't. Not by a long shot. The s8 is the highest grade they ever gave.
    The only place doing an objective comparison that we can view results for shows the iPhone 7 measured better than the Note 7, which is the previous best AMOLED. The S8 results haven't been disclosed so we don't know how it fares yet.
    04-05-2017 09:28 PM
  18. Aquila's Avatar
    Hey Aquila
    If you absolutely have to see the word "BEST"
    Here it is
    Cheers
    They are sourcing the same information as this thread, there's no new info yet.
    04-05-2017 09:29 PM
  19. Aquila's Avatar
    You can all argue about who is best. They gave it an A+ which no other phone has ever gotten. And if Apple had/has the best display why on earth are they going oled? Why not just keep the lcd screens they use?
    OLED has more room for them to improve and allows for different shapes they want to utilize. Their progress is in OLED. This doesn't change that A+ isn't a number - that doesn't give us the average delta-E value we need.
    04-05-2017 09:31 PM
  20. ScottsoNJ's Avatar
    OLED has more room for them to improve and allows for different shapes they want to utilize. Their progress is in OLED. This doesn't change that A+ isn't a number - that doesn't give us the average delta-E value we need.
    You want a number but they use letters
    04-06-2017 04:14 AM
  21. Aquila's Avatar
    You want a number but they use letters
    Which, again, means we don't actually know whether or not they're correct.
    04-06-2017 06:57 AM
  22. D13H4RD2L1V3's Avatar
    Sorry guys, but I'm gonna have to side with Aquila on this one.

    Here's the simple thing. Samsung's AMOLEDs are great, and from a usability perspective, they are the best overall with absurdly high maximum brightness, supremely-low minimum brightness and when set in sRGB "Basic" mode, is only a few points off the iPhone 7/7+ for accuracy (the 7 and 7+ are currently the benchmark when it comes to color accuracy), along with very low power consumption.

    What Aquila is trying to say is that a display which produces more accurate color is objectively better. While we can debate about this all day long, display accuracy is actually quite important to quite a number of folks, especially those doing photography and editing.

    Of course, there are other factors to consider, but Samsung has improved significantly when it comes to display calibration. All it needs is Android O's system-level per-app color management.
    04-06-2017 09:17 AM
  23. Adranalyne's Avatar
    Sorry guys, but I'm gonna have to side with Aquila on this one.

    Here's the simple thing. Samsung's AMOLEDs are great, and from a usability perspective, they are the best overall with absurdly high maximum brightness, supremely-low minimum brightness and when set in sRGB "Basic" mode, is only a few points off the iPhone 7/7+ for accuracy (the 7 and 7+ are currently the benchmark when it comes to color accuracy), along with very low power consumption.

    What Aquila is trying to say is that a display which produces more accurate color is objectively better. While we can debate about this all day long, display accuracy is actually quite important to quite a number of folks, especially those doing photography and editing.

    Of course, there are other factors to consider, but Samsung has improved significantly when it comes to display calibration. All it needs is Android O's system-level per-app color management.
    And if we were talking about displays we -don't- interact with, like TVs, I'd agree that accuracy is objectively better. We use these displays---they function on multiple levels and color accuracy is one of many things that you can grade a mobile display on.
    04-06-2017 09:25 AM
  24. D13H4RD2L1V3's Avatar
    And if we were talking about displays we -don't- interact with, like TVs, I'd agree that accuracy is objectively better. We use these displays---they function on multiple levels and color accuracy is one of many things that you can grade a mobile display on.
    True, which is why I had to emphasize "from a usability standpoint".

    The iPhone is definitely more accurate, but the Samsung OLED is more adaptable to a range of conditions while also being close to the iPhone's level of accuracy in sRGB mode.

    I do agree with Aquila that display color accuracy is important and in that regard, the iPhone is king. But Samsung does better in that other aspect.
    04-06-2017 09:30 AM
  25. Adranalyne's Avatar
    True, which is why I had to emphasize "from a usability standpoint".

    The iPhone is definitely more accurate, but the Samsung OLED is more adaptable to a range of conditions while also being close to the iPhone's level of accuracy in sRGB mode.

    I do agree with Aquila that display color accuracy is important and in that regard, the iPhone is king. But Samsung does better in that other aspect.
    I don't have any skin in the game (I'm using a Pixel right now, have a ProductRED iPhone 7, and have the S8 on preorder), but the point is that we DO use these displays and there are other variables. So from that perspective, DisplayMate making the assertion that the S8 is the best -mobile- display based on their testing isn't wrong. If you take all those other factors out of the equation then yes, the iPhone is more color accurate and thus objectively the better display.

    It's like saying a phone has the best camera because it takes the best still images, but isn't very good at video and dismissing another phone that is only a fraction worse on still images but far better on video.
    04-06-2017 09:51 AM
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