08-22-2017 07:29 AM
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  1. Adam Frix's Avatar
    I quoted their terms and conditions, I didn't alter them to fit my narrative, hint hint. You keep quoting things that only you have said then trying to pass them off as Samsung's words. Doesn't work that way.
    No. I read Samsung's T&C. They put the end user in a bad position.

    That's what Big Corp. does. They put themselves in a significantly better position than the end user. Yet for some reason, end users jump in bed with Big Corp and feed the monster.

    They weren't my words; they were Samsung's words. "We are the sole judge of the device's condition. No mechanism exists for you to dispute our judgment. You cannot get your device back." Ergo, only one conclusion exists: you cannot back out after hearing what Uncle Sammy has to say.
    07-03-2017 09:35 PM
  2. TylerLV76's Avatar
    No. I read Samsung's T&C. They put the end user in a bad position.

    That's what Big Corp. does. They put themselves in a significantly better position than the end user. Yet for some reason, end users jump in bed with Big Corp and feed the monster.

    They weren't my words; they were Samsung's words. "We are the sole judge of the device's condition. No mechanism exists for you to dispute our judgment. You cannot get your device back." Ergo, only one conclusion exists: you cannot back out after hearing what Uncle Sammy has to say.
    Yes, they judge the condition, based on their guidelines and verification the phone meets those guidelines. Why is this not registering? A brand new phone, never used, would clearly meet those conditions correct?

    So when they deny said phone people should just accept it? Is that what you're suggesting?
    07-03-2017 09:37 PM
  3. Adam Frix's Avatar
    Ewww.. would never get caught up in something like this, although I'm sorry people have.

    I wouldn't trust this if it were Apple, let alone Samsung.
    At least with Apple, you'd only be out a trip to the Apple Store and you'd be able to walk away from the bad deal and remain whole.

    With Samsung, there's no backing out. They literally say that their decision is final and that you have no recourse. It's literally like the "pick a number between 1 and 10" fake casino game.
    07-03-2017 09:37 PM
  4. Ian B's Avatar
    For this fiasco from Samsung, I just picked up a brand new S8+ unlocked for $650 from swappa.com

    Ian B
    07-03-2017 09:42 PM
  5. Adam Frix's Avatar
    How do you explain a brand new phone, never used, not following those guidelines? Please enlighten us.
    I get what you're saying. I really do. But you have to ask Samsung your question.

    And in the world of Big Corp, you'll never get an answer. They just sit there and stare at you. Now what?

    That's the risk. It's about understanding and managing the risk.

    If you bought a new device for $10 and traded it in and got $25 for your troubles, are you harmed? You just got an extra $15 that you didn't have before. But you wanted whatever the web site initially told you, let's say $200.

    Are you really going to fight for that?

    Samsung got a new S8 sale RIGHT NOW, and that's all they wanted. Did they screw someone over? I would say yes--but that's not Samsung's concern right now. They'll worry about that later.

    Welcome to Big Corp.
    07-03-2017 09:43 PM
  6. TylerLV76's Avatar
    Lets look at the WHOLE section you are clearly ignoring.

    Part 1.
    When you place your order, Samsung’s website will display a Trade-In Value based on the particular model device you select as your Trade-in Device. The Trade-In Value displayed is subject to receipt by Samsung of your Trade-in Device, in good condition as provided in these Terms. You may incur additional charges if you do not send your Trade-In Device to Samsung within fifteen (15) days of receiving your new device or if your Trade-In Device is not in good condition. See Sections 4 and 5 below for further details. From time to time, Samsung may offer limited time trade-in promotions (“Promotions”) with terms and eligibility requirements that may differ from those described here. Promotions will be covered by separate terms and these Terms will not apply. Please refer to our website for the most up to date Promotions and related terms
    Part 2.
    5. Good Condition
    Samsung will determine, in its sole judgment, whether your Trade-In Device is in good condition. A Trade-In Device is in "good condition" if it:
    · Powers on and holds a charge;
    · Has a functioning display;
    · Has no breaks or cracks or other visible defects that go beyond normal wear and tear; AND
    · Is not on a black list of any kind.
    In addition to being in “good condition”, your Qualifying Trade-In Device must satisfy the following additional requirements (as well as all other requirements set forth in these Terms):
    · Has Reactivation Lock, Google Factory Reset Protection, or any other anti-theft locking software disabled; AND
    · You must have performed a factory reset and removed all personal information from device (as described in Section 3 above).
    You see that part bolded? Those are the determining factors that samsung will use to determine good condition. Nowhere does it say "these and other conditions we choose". Those are the ONLY conditions you have to meet in their own words. You cant twist it any way you want but those words are binding. They cant be altered, interpreted or skewed in any way. This is a contract once you complete the checkout. It literally cannot be any clearer.
    07-03-2017 09:45 PM
  7. Adam Frix's Avatar
    You can word it anyway you would like. But the bottom line is a company as big as Samsung should not be doing this.
    That's a risk assessment. "They shouldn't be doing X, but what are the odds that X can/will happen?"

    Maybe it was never their original intent, but as with many things in Big Corp, it just devolved into what it is. Absolute best case, this is a mistake they will rectify. But the simple fact remains, they have your device and they determine what they will pay. They even said as much in their T&C.
    07-03-2017 09:47 PM
  8. TylerLV76's Avatar
    I get what you're saying. I really do. But you have to ask Samsung your question.

    And in the world of Big Corp, you'll never get an answer. They just sit there and stare at you. Now what?

    That's the risk. It's about understanding and managing the risk.

    If you bought a new device for $10 and traded it in and got $25 for your troubles, are you harmed? You just got an extra $15 that you didn't have before. But you wanted whatever the web site initially told you, let's say $200.

    Are you really going to fight for that?

    Samsung got a new S8 sale RIGHT NOW, and that's all they wanted. Did they screw someone over? I would say yes--but that's not Samsung's concern right now. They'll worry about that later.

    Welcome to Big Corp.
    And there it is. It only took how many posts? Like I said from the get go, your first post was entirely incorrect. You are blaming the user when its clear they followed the guidelines to a T.

    Had I said what you said only to later say what you just said, Id apologize. But thats just me.
    07-03-2017 09:47 PM
  9. Adam Frix's Avatar
    Yes, they judge the condition, based on their guidelines and verification the phone meets those guidelines. Why is this not registering? A brand new phone, never used, would clearly meet those conditions correct?
    Of course it would.

    So: let's suppose you sent them a brand new phone. They come back and deny that it's in good condition. Now what? How will you challenge them on this? YOU DID THIS ALL VIA MAIL. You can't go back and challenge them. No mechanism exists. You can't even back out and get your device back.

    Why would you enter into such a process to begin with?


    So when they deny said phone people should just accept it? Is that what you're suggesting?
    Um, no. But look at the odds.
    07-03-2017 09:50 PM
  10. TylerLV76's Avatar
    So they shouldnt accept it and in turn come to a forum to raise the conversation about this scenario as well as state they will never deal with samsung again. You decided it was a good idea to belittle people for voicing their concerns and blame them for getting screwed.

    You enter into the process with the hopes that a company will follow their own contract and if they dont people will stand up and raise enough hell that they will eventually correct the problem. This is literally the EXACT same thing we did with the S7 Active and got the issue fixed. How do you hold a company accountable if you dont speak up?

    BTW, many people kept detailed records of what they sent in.
    07-03-2017 09:54 PM
  11. Adam Frix's Avatar
    Lets look at the WHOLE section you are clearly ignoring.

    Part 1.


    Part 2.


    You see that part bolded? Those are the determining factors that samsung will use to determine good condition. Nowhere does it say "these and other conditions we choose". Those are the ONLY conditions you have to meet in their own words. You cant twist it any way you want but those words are binding. They cant be altered, interpreted or skewed in any way. This is a contract once you complete the checkout. It literally cannot be any clearer.
    Great. Now go back and prove that your phone was in "good condition" inside the process that Samsung created and owns for all of this.

    That's my whole point. Not that Uncle Sammy didn't define "good condition". They did. But they created a process that allowed for them to look you in the eye, declare the device not to meet the standards they defined, and give you exactly ZERO chance to either (a) challenge that, or (b) back out of the process.

    Apparently you and thousands of others missed that part of Sammy's T&C.

    It starts with understanding risk. When Big Corp creates something like this, they eliminate risk on their part and put ALL the risk onto you. That's why they have legions of marketing and legal help on staff.
    07-03-2017 09:55 PM
  12. TylerLV76's Avatar
    Great. Now go back and prove that your phone was in "good condition" inside the process that Samsung created and owns for all of this.

    That's my whole point. Not that Uncle Sammy didn't define "good condition". They did. But they created a process that allowed for them to look you in the eye, declare the device not to meet the standards they defined, and give you exactly ZERO chance to either (a) challenge that, or (b) back out of the process.

    Apparently you and thousands of others missed that part of Sammy's T&C.

    It starts with understanding risk. When Big Corp creates something like this, they eliminate risk on their part and put ALL the risk onto you. That's why they have legions of marketing and legal help on staff.
    People kept receipts, took pictures and videos. Did you think people wouldnt track the process? Its on Samsung to prove they didnt.

    I can tell you from first hand experience. If you take a picture of your item in the packaging before you close it and keep the tracker numbers you will win. That will be deemed sufficient evidence of what you shipped. Samsung legally has to record every item they receive. They will have to prove you sent them something you didnt.
    07-03-2017 09:56 PM
  13. Adam Frix's Avatar
    And there it is. It only took how many posts? Like I said from the get go, your first post was entirely incorrect. You are blaming the user when its clear they followed the guidelines to a T.
    As I have stated from the beginning, I blame the user for not understanding the T&C and the risk the user takes in doing things Sammy's way.

    Lie with dogs, wake with fleas.
    07-03-2017 09:57 PM
  14. Adam Frix's Avatar
    You enter into the process with the hopes that a company will follow their own contract and if they dont people will stand up and raise enough hell that they will eventually correct the problem. This is literally the EXACT same thing we did with the S7 Active and got the issue fixed. How do you hold a company accountable if you dont speak up?

    BTW, many people kept detailed records of what they sent in.
    I don't put myself in a position to have to deal with crap like this in the first place.

    You might say I lost out on $200. I would say otherwise.
    07-03-2017 09:59 PM
  15. Adam Frix's Avatar
    People kept receipts, took pictures and videos. Did you think people wouldnt track the process? Its on Samsung to prove they didnt.

    I can tell you from first hand experience. If you take a picture of your item in the packaging before you close it and keep the tracker numbers you will win. That will be deemed sufficient evidence of what you shipped. Samsung legally has to record every item they receive. They will have to prove you sent them something you didnt.
    yeah. Good luck with that.
    07-03-2017 10:01 PM
  16. TylerLV76's Avatar
    As I have stated from the beginning, I blame the user for not understanding the T&C and the risk the user takes in doing things Sammy's way.

    Lie with dogs, wake with fleas.
    They did understand the term, and followed them. At that point you logically cannot blame the user.

    If you buy a car and agree to the terms and on your first bill its double, thats not legal. Neither is this but I dont blame the buyer because they bought a Chevy.
    AustinTech likes this.
    07-03-2017 10:01 PM
  17. TylerLV76's Avatar
    Understand the insanity in what youve said so far.

    You blame the user for not understanding the risk, but then say samsung screwed someone over. Just because there is risk does NOT mean its acceptable to be screwed. Then to belittle people for getting screwed is not only absurd but quite frankly its the same as blaming a woman for being raped because she wore a skirt that could be deemed risky.

    Just plain stupidity.

    Like I said, theres no reasoning with that logic and before I catch another warning Im done with this ignorant idea that the user is somehow to blame for following the companies terms of service.
    07-03-2017 10:05 PM
  18. Sugoru6's Avatar
    Never thought I'd see the word "perfect" used so much in a thread. Redundancy.
    07-03-2017 10:24 PM
  19. AustinTech's Avatar
    For this fiasco from Samsung, I just picked up a brand new S8+ unlocked for $650 from swappa.com

    Ian B
    Me too! And it's coming with two nice Spigen cases.
    07-04-2017 05:23 AM
  20. Adam Frix's Avatar
    Like I said, theres no reasoning with that logic and before I catch another warning Im done with this ignorant idea that the user is somehow to blame for following the companies terms of service.
    Samsung put themselves in a position where they could just lie, then made it impossible for the user to prove that they lied or for the user to pull back from the deal as a result of that lie.

    Was Sammy responsible? Sure. Was the end user responsible for putting himself in such a position where, if he was lied to, he could never recover? Yes--because while Sammy may have lied in their T&C about "we'll give you $200", they were clear about the position the end user would be in with respect to not being able to pull back from the deal.

    People saw "free $200" and ignored the "but only if Sammy does what they say AFTER you give them your device through the mail without any way of getting it back or disproving Sammy's judgment on the device".

    People engaged in highly risky behavior for the hope of getting $200, and were caught by surprise when it went south on them? Shocking.

    People DO own their own behavior. By Sammy's own T&C it was very clearly a very risky deal for the end user to begin with, because of the bad position it put the end user into relative to Samsung.
    07-04-2017 06:48 AM
  21. msp1518's Avatar
    Me too! And it's coming with two nice Spigen cases.
    I have done the same. $599 for a new S8 off of Swappa. Verizon variety. Meanwhile I denied receipt of the two unlocked models that FedEx wanted to drop off yesterday AND I initiated a return on the one I did receive last Friday.

    The only reason I decided to still buy one from Swappa is because I had already spent $77 on a case, screen protector and wireless charger. That would be money flushed. So I'll have my Swappa S8 by Saturday and will continue learning how to use my first Android phone... until the Essential Phone is released. If I like it, I will dump the S8 in a split second. Yeah I'll lose money, but sh!# happens.

    Samsung is a huge company, supposedly trying to rebuild its reputation after the Note 7 disaster. Screwing over hundreds, if not thousands of excited S8 purchasers is an astounding act of PR suicide. And those here who wish to put the blame on the consumer are classless trolls.
    Jona005, TylerLV76 and AustinTech like this.
    07-04-2017 08:43 AM
  22. Golfdriver97's Avatar
    I skimmed part of this thread, so I apologize if what I am about to say has already been said.

    Samsung, if you are reading, please heed what I have to say....

    Given the Note 7 cluster, the washing machine cluster that followed, I think it would be in Samsung's best interest to not mess around with this. The Note 7 damaged their image a little, and fans stayed loyal (please don't take this the wrong way Samsung fans), the washing machine thing happened, and again, people weren't really swayed.

    However, to use the cliche of bad things happen in threes....and this would be number three by my count. Sammy, be advised: You mess around with this and you will most likely drive people away in masses. Your customer base; a substantial method of income. People can be very unforgiving if they feel they were deceived. You are a large company Samsung, I can agree. But so was Compaq or Sears. Operative word being was.
    Jona005 and VW Maverick like this.
    07-04-2017 09:48 AM
  23. TylerLV76's Avatar
    I skimmed part of this thread, so I apologize if what I am about to say has already been said.

    Samsung, if you are reading, please heed what I have to say....

    Given the Note 7 cluster, the washing machine cluster that followed, I think it would be in Samsung's best interest to not mess around with this. The Note 7 damaged their image a little, and fans stayed loyal (please don't take this the wrong way Samsung fans), the washing machine thing happened, and again, people weren't really swayed.

    However, to use the cliche of bad things happen in threes....and this would be number three by my count. Sammy, be advised: You mess around with this and you will most likely drive people away in masses. Your customer base; a substantial method of income. People can be very unforgiving if they feel they were deceived. You are a large company Samsung, I can agree. But so was Compaq or Sears. Operative word being was.
    This is actually the 4th story for Samsung in the past year that has gained national attention.

    1. S7 Active seals faulty causing water damage under normal circumstances. Gained national media attention and forced Samsung to warranty the devices.
    2. Note 7 disaster (massive recall)
    3. Samsung Washers (massive recall)
    4. This debacle

    Eventually its going to cost them dearly.
    07-04-2017 10:03 AM
  24. Adam Frix's Avatar
    You mess around with this and you will most likely drive people away in masses. Your customer base; a substantial method of income. People can be very unforgiving if they feel they were deceived.
    Samsung's upper management is no doubt operating in a vacuum, thinking that they are the only choice for a premium pocket computer that runs Android.

    And while some of Sammy's technologies are good--Flow comes to mind--Sammy is not invincible. There is competition. You might not get Flow, for example, but LG will give you honest customer support and take care of you when they screw up. They demonstrated that to me, twice, with the V10. That came on the heels of Samsung screwing me with an Android update and washing their hands of it, denying any knowledge of what the entire world already knew about that update.

    Life is all about choices, and the more Samsung pulls this stuff the more people will choose not to do business with them. The more people will choose to accept other alternatives. No Flow? No super energy saver? Eh. Fair trade--I'll get a reliable handset from someone who isn't screwing me.

    Your Sears analogy is a good one. People have choices. If they don't have choices now, the universe will recognize that there's a better way and will create those choices, and users will move to embrace those choices. (The cable TV industry is recognizing the same thing after 35 years of Ernestine-like "we don't have to, we're the cableco" attitude.)
    07-04-2017 11:18 AM
  25. Adam Frix's Avatar
    This is actually the 4th story for Samsung in the past year that has gained national attention.

    1. S7 Active seals faulty causing water damage under normal circumstances. Gained national media attention and forced Samsung to warranty the devices.
    2. Note 7 disaster (massive recall)
    3. Samsung Washers (massive recall)
    4. This debacle

    Eventually its going to cost them dearly.
    bah. The masses, most of whom were never caught up in this debacle, will continue to go get another Samsung. Their carrier offers it, they've been using Samsung forever, and their friends have it, so there. Problem solved. It's a solution that takes much of the uncertainty out of the decision.

    The only way to kill Samsung dead is if Apple decided to offer an Android handset. Apple apps plus the Apple Store plus Apple's incredible support infrastructure, plus carrier availability using Apple's infrastructure, would woo many converts from Samsung.

    Apple could play it like Blackberry does now with the KEYone: it's our phone, using our stuff. It's the only place to get our stuff on Android. Sure the underlying OS is Android; you can add your other Android stuff, but now you can also have our stuff like iMessage et al. on your Android platform. Costs the same as an iPhone (perhaps a little less), but you get the rest of the Apple package. Premium parts, premium specs, premium support. Not your grandfather's ten dollar Android from Big Lots.
    07-04-2017 11:24 AM
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