Thoughts on the pentile screen?

Suntan

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Did you not state that you have a monitor setup specifically to reproduce images that will look identical to how they look when you print them? What's the goal of that? To make images and prints that look as close to reality as possible, right? Unless your intended goal is something a little more "artistic" at least.

That?s just it. My desktop display is setup to mimic the look of Endura print paper. Which does not and cannot look just like the real world. The desire is to have confidence that what is created on screen will faithfully be recreated when printed. But the more important aspect of it is that if you were to sit down and watch a movie on the display, or even worse, play a video game on the display you would think it was a cheap piece of crap because the colors would look dull and not ?lifelike? the way you are used to seeing them when you game or watch a movie.

More importantly, that?s just one use case and it costs a lot of money just to get that. So if all you wanted the display for was to watch movies on it, you would think it was a POS that cost way too much, and you?d be right.

Do you use your phone for just one thing and one thing only? Or do you expect it to be a jack of all trades?

It may seem silly to press the point, but I?ll give a real example. When I got my Droid 3 I really liked the pentile screen because it used a ?white? pixel as the extra pixel, allowing the screen to be nice and bright without draining the battery. At the time my day job required me to take notes while out in the bright sun quite often during the summer. Being able to use the phone to take pictures, embed them into a quickoffice document and then put notes with the pictures for further review back at the office was great and was actually feasible because the screen was nice and bright and the black text on a white background was really sharp and clear. I could use it all day with the backlight maxed, taking pictures and making notes and not be too worried about the battery going out.

At the time it was the ideal screen for the job, yet some people here would like to tell me that it was my own ?blissful ignorance? that I didn?t know I should want a traditional RGB array screen instead.

Now let?s talk about after hours, the screen worked ok for video, although the pentile matrix could be annoying from time to time. It was rather drab for games where I much prefer brighter and punchier colors and amoled would have been a benefit back there. No need to try and mimic ?real life? when I?m slingshotting birds at green pigs?

Was I ?blissfully ignorant? about movie playback and lack of saturated colors for games? Heck no, I could see it plain as day. But the reality is that you?re stuck making subjective choices about what will best fit your needs and nobody is making the ?perfect? screen.

People invest thousands of dollars into high-end photography equipment so that they have the best equipment available to capture images as close to how they look to the human eye.

Not really. Most of the time the goal is to produce an image the way the photographer wants to portray it to the viewer. First and foremost, don?t let me break it to you that those girls weren?t made to look that way by their momma. Don?t believe me? Have a mouse-over on some of these girls.

Portrait Professional Picture Gallery

"That doesn?t count," you say. But it does. The reality is that we have been conditionally trained to expect what we see on a display to look different from what we see in real life.

If I take an image of some kids playing in a school gymnasium, do you really want the resulting image to look a sickly greenish-yellow from the sodium vapor lights? Or do you want them to look ?normal?? When you are at the gym yourself your eye/mind automatically corrects for the whitepoint of the lights. When you see the result that would be a faithful representation of the lighting in a picture you would think it looks terrible.

Now you may be thinking, well yeah that?s obvious, but that is just one example (one that most people can relate to) of many things that have to change to make a ?picture? look normal, whether it is printed or displayed on a screen. And that doesn?t even touch on all the lighting and color change tricks that can and do get used to shift the resulting images (both video and stills) so that they end up looking like what you expect them to look like on your display.

If you still don?t believe me, have a google for terms like ?CSI Miami colors? or ?Michael Bay Colors? those are two off the top of my head that are usually the most obvious and complained about, but there are entire classes taught about changing colors to fit something other than ?real life.? Usually the effect is to try and make the new video mimic the limitations and constraints of old film, because that?s what we want our movies to look like. Google for something like ?cinestyle color correction? and you should probably find a lot of hits.


There are definitely accepted standards. Take white level, for example. Would you agree that daylight is the accepted standard for lighting and for "white"? If so it's commonly accepted that daylight is 6500k, regardless of what industry you're talking about. Adobe has color space specifications (which you should be familiar with being into photography). Black level is also measurable. So is color accuracy, sharpness, contrast, brightness, I can really keep going.

Yes, there are standards based on the specific industry you are in, and yes I do agree that 6500K is the generally agreed upon reference for ?daylight.? Where I disagree is that everyone has to like ?daylight? as their absolute preferred reference and strive to only use or own displays that only output such.

Just check the menu of your regular desktop monitor. I bet it has a number of different settings for ?warm? or ?cool? or perhaps it just gives color temps like 5500K and 6500K and maybe 7000K. The reality is that some people like to look at the warmer colors if they are doing text work on their computer screens all day. Are they ?imperfect? for wanting this?

Or for that matter, type ?White paint? into the search field of the Home Depot website and see how many hits you come up with. Are all but one of those imperfect choices?



The perfect display doesn't exist. Until the idea of the pixel is non-existent it never will. The human eye has an absurdly high resolution limit, but a limited range for color, which is where displays typically focus.

Not really. We?re actually the other way around. The good folks at SMPTE and THX have put a fair amount of work into figuring out the human eye. Basically they suggest that for someone with 20/20 vision (?but of course all of us here are better than average?) their eye can resolve about 1/60 of a degree of arc. Beyond that, it doesn?t matter. Based on this, and some other things, they have standards for movie viewing. Now we use our phones for more than just movies, but it is interesting to take a look at the numbers. Basically, for a 4.8? screen with a 1280x720 res; the ideal distance someone should hold their phone to maximize acuity without having the individual pixels too obvious a person should hold the phone pretty much at 11.2? from their eyes. Which I would say that is on the close side of where someone would normally hold their phone. So we?re pretty much there already for resolution.

As for color, here is the color gamut for sRGB.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Gamut-sRGB.png/600px-Gamut-sRGB.png

The triangle in the middle is the sRGB colorspace (which is a pretty small colorspace compared to some of the other prominent ones) and the swoopy triangle like envelop around it represents what the average human eye can make out. As you can see, sRGB isn?t even hitting half of all the colors that we can see. And no phone display is even coming close to accurately filling the whole sRGB gamut.

If anything, displays need to get going on color if we ever want them to replicate ?real life.? But as we discussed above, people have been conditioned to expect our displays to show use something other than ?real life? and so when we see displays that show a lot of vibrant colors (like amoled) we instantly point a finger and denounce it for having ?amped up? colors that are ?realistic.?

It has nothing to do with groups, or majority of users. That has no impact or affect on what is "good" or "bad". A majority of people could love AMOLED displays, but that won't change the fact that have difficulty with true whites.

They have difficulty with 6500K ?daylight.?

To your last point, I think you may be getting something confused. All of the things that I've said can be measured to determine which display is better?

Can be measured to determine which display meets a subjective set of criteria for which we can choose to agree looks ?better.? There?s a difference.

-Suntan
 

Dreamliner330

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Suntan, the more you swing the bat, the more you strike out. Sad, really.

You've moved way beyond the topic of this thread because you are unable to admit defeat. Stop now before you piss off a moderator.
 

nkd

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WOW can we close this thread already and put it at the end of forum universe. I can't believe what this turned in to, lol. Pentile is ok if done right, It sucks on motorola phones and it shined on galaxy nexus and it would be even better on GS3. Lets just put it at that.
 

sniffs

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This AC blog post clearly shows why I won't be keeping my SGIII.

White is supposed to be white, not blue-ish.

http://www.androidcentral.com/official-my-xbox-live-app-released-android-reminds-us-it-isnt-smartglass

Look at that SGIII screen and contrast it to the white space around the blog post.

If all our monitors did this by default, whoever made the monitors would be out of business, yet it's OK if it's a smartphone? Ever wonder why Apple will not ever use a pentile matrix in their hardware? Apple strives for the highest quality and accepts nothing less.. In Apple's eyes, pentile is inferior regardless of anyone's opinion.
 

nkd

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This AC blog post clearly shows why I won't be keeping my SGIII.

White is supposed to be white, not blue-ish.

http://www.androidcentral.com/official-my-xbox-live-app-released-android-reminds-us-it-isnt-smartglass

Look at that SGIII screen and contrast it to the white space around the blog post.

If all our monitors did this by default, whoever made the monitors would be out of business, yet it's OK if it's a smartphone? Ever wonder why Apple will not ever use a pentile matrix in their hardware? Apple strives for the highest quality and accepts nothing less.. In Apple's eyes, pentile is inferior regardless of anyone's opinion.

You do realize the phone comes with different preference for color tone right? You can select which one you want. Plus the image quality of the picture has a big question mark. Looks like taken with a low res camera phone.

The post isn't even about galaxy S. way to just judge a phone by looking a picture, and not taking any variables in to account. I am sure you will have an iphone 5 readily available if you chose to do so.
 

sniffs

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You do realize the phone comes with different preference for color tone right? You can select which one you want. Plus the image quality of the picture has a big question mark. Looks like taken with a low res camera phone.

The post isn't even about galaxy S. way to just judge a phone by looking a picture, and not taking any variables in to account. I am sure you will have an iphone 5 readily available if you chose to do so.

I'm assuming you've never seen a Galaxy Nexus then either. Hold that phone, or an SGIII up next to an HTC One X with the same white screen and the GN and SGIII are inherently blue-er due to the larger blue pixels.

That post isn't about the Galaxy S or the SIII, but that phone in the image IS an SIII.
 

LazrRocketArm

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I'm assuming you've never seen a Galaxy Nexus then either. Hold that phone, or an SGIII up next to an HTC One X with the same white screen and the GN and SGIII are inherently blue-er due to the larger blue pixels.

That post isn't about the Galaxy S or the SIII, but that phone in the image IS an SIII.

No offense dude, but I can't take you seriously if you are really judging the SGSIII screen, based on your screens presentation of a photo of the screen.

People can argue all day about what measures you may judge a screen, but the eye test never fails.
 

iN8ter

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Pentile has been given a bad name. I had the galaxy nexus for a bit and pentile on that looks 100 times better than razr maxx my friend has.

I am not too worried about it. However galaxy nexus did look bad on low brightness when there was white background. From what I have read in reviews, samsung has tweaked the colors and screen and that issue is no longer there.

However, the Galaxy Nexus screen can burn-in, so that's also a consideration. I personally have never seen an IPS screen burn-in, but I've seen tons of sAMOLED screens with burn-in. Pen-Tile on a 720p display is practically invisible to the naked eye, though. You will not notice the difference without at least a magnifying glass - for the most part. It's not a factor.

It was more of a factor at WVGA (1st gen GS devices) and qHD (devices like the Droid Bionic, that screen is disgusting with the Pen-Tile checkerboard).

I think the Droid Razr/Razr Maxx have qHD screens so yea the Galaxy Nexus screen does blow them away.
 

crackberrytraitor

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I couldn't disagree with this more. First of all, no display made has ever come close to reproducing what the eye actually sees in nature. Second people making visual content (both movies and still images) put *a lot* of effort into making the content, and thus the resulting output, look at lot different than what was actually there in real life.


-Suntan

Exactly. They put a lot of effort into making it look the way they did. So using a display that accurately reproduces that output the way they designed it to look would obviously be the most ideal thing, would it not? It seems silly to talk about preserving the colors and tones made by the artist to defend a display that has a higher level of distortion/saturation.


Sent from my HTC One X using Android Central Forums
 

Suntan

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Exactly. They put a lot of effort into making it look the way they did. So using a display that accurately reproduces that output the way they designed it to look would obviously be the most ideal thing, would it not? It seems silly to talk about preserving the colors and tones made by the artist to defend a display that has a higher level of distortion/saturation.

Actually, in the home theater world this debate is known as preference vs. reference. Half the group says you'd be silly to watch output that is different than the director intends. The other half argue that you would be silly to knowingly watch a reference setup when you know you like the look a different way.

Feel free to pick the side you want to be on.

-Suntan
 

neiljay6

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Suntan, the more you swing the bat, the more you strike out. Sad, really.

You've moved way beyond the topic of this thread because you are unable to admit defeat. Stop now before you piss off a moderator.

Wow. He?s gonna piss off a moderator because of his opinion?? He has in no way been disrespectful or rude in anyway.
Anyhoo, this thread has become ridiculous. Don?t know why some people must go to great lengths to prove that what they have or like is the best or is the correct thing to have.
My good friend bought a gnex and the screen on that thing is amazing to me. And from what I can gather the gs3 screen is even better.
Based on that experience and my experiences with other phones I have used in the past, I will say I prefer the look of amoled screens any day of the week. And If anyone is gonna come here and tell me that my preference is dumb or I am naive because of my opinion or preference, then that individual has lost all credibility and is not worth arguing with.
My advice to people is don?t let me or anyone here sway your opinion on what you want to buy. Especially people that don?t have the phone in their possession. If possible look at the phone and screen in person and decide for yourself what is acceptable and good for you.
I?m buying this phone and based on my experiences with amoled screens in the pass it will be the best for me.
 

crackberrytraitor

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Not really. Most of the time the goal is to produce an image the way the photographer wants to portray it to the viewer.

You see, you said it again yourself.

Actually, in the home theater world this debate is known as preference vs. reference. Half the group says you'd be silly to watch output that is different than the director intends. The other half argue that you would be silly to knowingly watch a reference setup when you know you like the look a different way.

Yes, I agree some people may choose that they prefer to change the output slightly to their liking, however I don't think any true visual hobbiest would prefer a display that is physically incapable of portraying an output that is similar to the original over one that can, rather they would adjust it back in forth via software for whatever they may find useful on their application of choice at the time. Over saturation maybe be useful for some shots, which can be achieved with software adjustments. But when your display can't adjust the opposite way, say on a darker image, you're simply stuck with details being totally turned black and obscured and there is nothing you can do about it.
 
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Kevin OQuinn

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Wow. He’s gonna piss off a moderator because of his opinion?? He has in no way been disrespectful or rude in anyway.
Anyhoo, this thread has become ridiculous. Don’t know why some people must go to great lengths to prove that what they have or like is the best or is the correct thing to have.
My good friend bought a gnex and the screen on that thing is amazing to me. And from what I can gather the gs3 screen is even better.
Based on that experience and my experiences with other phones I have used in the past, I will say I prefer the look of amoled screens any day of the week. And If anyone is gonna come here and tell me that my preference is dumb or I am naive because of my opinion or preference, then that individual has lost all credibility and is not worth arguing with.
My advice to people is don’t let me or anyone here sway your opinion on what you want to buy. Especially people that don’t have the phone in their possession. If possible look at the phone and screen in person and decide for yourself what is acceptable and good for you.
I’m buying this phone and based on my experiences with amoled screens in the pass it will be the best for me.

I'm definitely not going to get mad or angry because someone disagrees with me or presents evidence to support their case.

Each person definitely chooses what they like. You're not wrong for having a preference.


+suntan, I'm well aware of sRGB vs Adobe RGB. The reason AMOLED displays in particular look so saturated is because they are capable of displaying more than the sRGB range, but not quite all the way to the Adobe RGB. The signal (and what everything is really designed to work with) is the sRGB color space. So what happens with all the extra range the display is capable of displaying? It gets turned into the next closest thing, which is what oversaturates the display. Samsung can try to correct for this, but it's like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

Also, with SLCD2 on the One X it's capable of plenty of brightness to be able to be used in direct sunlight, without having to resort to subpixel trickery to falsely raise the brightness. No one said that there isn't a place for something like that, though, and as I stated above there are people that will prefer this over a truly accurate display because they need it to be functional in that particular use case. It's a compromise that has to be made in order to use your phone the way you need to use it. Until we have a perfect display (which won't happen for quite a while) everyone will have to choose a display that makes a compromise in some way or another.

I also didn't state that anybody should try to undo the work of a director or artist that purposely makes something look like something other than reality. If the display is calibrated correctly then it'll look exactly as the director/artist intended. I'm not going to use Transformers to calibrate a display.


Just to clarify, are you saying that you don't try to make your pictures as close to reality as possible (assuming you aren't purposely making it look different)? Because if you are, then you obviously choose paper, ink, and a printer that will accurately print what's on your display. And your display should be calibrated to display pictures as close to reality as possible, and I'm just making a natural assumption that you're using a really good camera (DSLR) that takes awesomely accurate pictures (with proper white balance and such).
 

crackberrytraitor

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Wow. He?s gonna piss off a moderator because of his opinion?? He has in no way been disrespectful or rude in anyway.
Anyhoo, this thread has become ridiculous. Don?t know why some people must go to great lengths to prove that what they have or like is the best or is the correct thing to have.
My good friend bought a gnex and the screen on that thing is amazing to me. And from what I can gather the gs3 screen is even better.
Based on that experience and my experiences with other phones I have used in the past, I will say I prefer the look of amoled screens any day of the week. And If anyone is gonna come here and tell me that my preference is dumb or I am naive because of my opinion or preference, then that individual has lost all credibility and is not worth arguing with.
My advice to people is don?t let me or anyone here sway your opinion on what you want to buy. Especially people that don?t have the phone in their possession. If possible look at the phone and screen in person and decide for yourself what is acceptable and good for you.
I?m buying this phone and based on my experiences with amoled screens in the pass it will be the best for me.

Nobody is saying that your opinion is dumb, if you prefer the oversaturation of AMOLED, you should buy it, as it's obviously better for you. The point that's being made is that from a technical standpoint, the display that can more accurately reproduce colors and has a higher rate of clarity is a better overall display.

Sent from my HTC One X using Android Central Forums
 
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crackberrytraitor

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The new iphone5,s transparent screen blows them all away. :p

Teen

That's a concept design produced by a teenager, not an actual IPhone 5. Please read what you post, before you post it, or you'll end up looking foolish. Unless that was a joke, in which case, ha ha.

Sent from my HTC One X using Android Central Forums
 

sniffs

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No offense dude, but I can't take you seriously if you are really judging the SGSIII screen, based on your screens presentation of a photo of the screen.

People can argue all day about what measures you may judge a screen, but the eye test never fails.

Samsung Galaxy S3 Review – Why Should You Get It? | Best Wireless Reviews

The downside to the outdated display is that a slightly blue tint is noticeable when compared to other more up-to-date LCD screens.

Display Blue Tint - Samsung GALAXY S III 16GB Support Forum - Expansys USA

I just got my SGS3 yesterday and I'm experiencing a blue tint with the slightest tilt of the display to any direction. It is extremely apparent in the stock internet browser and very noticeable on white color.

Samsung Galaxy SIII - Page 5

The SIII's screen is good but everything's got a blue tint to it, especially the whites.

Samsung Galaxy S3 or HTC One X?

I'd barely notice the blue tint if I didnt have the One X next to the S3 screen

Samsung Galaxy S III Review | Android Community

Whites finally look white when viewed straight on, but the familiar blue tint will return once you start to shift the handset around in your hand and towards different angles.

Need I say more? That was just a quick google search..

Fact of the matter is, the display is made with larger blue pixels, it's going to have the blue tint.
 

sniffs

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^naw... Your just biased. :p

lol, I'm not knocking the SGIII. Samsung has their reasons. Apparently in AMOLED, blue pixels wear out quicker, so they make them bigger so they wear at the same rate as the red/green.

This helps for longevity.. if you can get over the blue tint, it's a great phone. I like mine, it's just not my daily driver.. my 1X is. :)
 

maverick96

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The blue tint is noticeable on ALL Super AMOLED screens. Having the option to change color temperature on the GS3 is nice, but there is still that annoying blue tint on white backgrounds. I wish Samsung went with the One X's display. It's unfortunate they didn't. PenTile Super AMOLED sucks.