K, January 25th I'm giving Pre Plus a trial run...

ardoreal

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Alright, I've gotta admit, I was seduced by what the Pre was suppose to be from the get go. When I saw it at CES 2009 a year ago I was sold. I was like "This is how they should go."

Then I got a Pre and wow, what a janky pile of crap. WebOS was great and all, but what crap hardware. Seriously, the creakiness, the easily scratchable form factor, the cross hatches in the screen, the dead pixels, the seemingly always imminent battery DEATH, just a bag of hurt all around.

Now we're looking at the Pre Plus, where Palm's had some time to tweak the form factor, looks like they've ironed out some kinks....oh and what's this? PDK?

What's this!??!!? SERIOUSLY GOOD GAMES??!?!?! AND MORE?!?!?! THEY FIXED THE BLOODY APP LIMITATION ISSUE THAT US ANDROID USERS ARE BLOODY STUCK WITH AND SOMEHOW BY A FRICKEN MIRACLE THE PRE HAS SOME SERIOUSLY IPHONE QUALITY GAMES!?!?!!?
:eek::eek:

This has seriously got me doing a huge WTF?

I mean, we're on a platform by Google?? How did we get leapfrogged like this?

I feel a bit like the Grinch, scratching my head and pacing, over why there is still a Christmas. How could this be? Why did it happen?

How is it that Palm consistently out-google's Google all the time like this lately?

Look at Ares, and tell me that isn't just totally cool. I, not exactly being a programmer of any sort, can easily build a beautiful interface and start making an app just for my own little self that I can make do almost anything I want short of a videogame. They have an interface builder tool that's BETTER than interface builder for iPhone SDK. Did we just have Palm out-apple Apple and then just out-google Google at the same time???

I'm wondering, what's so great about my Droid now? As far as I can tell, the advantage of the Droid over the Pre is voice searching, maps/navigation, being able to install Swype, and some future proofing. However, Devs will soon be able to leverage quite heavily the GPU of the Pre. This is something Droid users may never benefit from.

Seriously, what rich and powerful apps do we have that will use our GPU's? Nothing, that's what. From the looks of it, we MAY get some games, but that's it.

With PDK the Pre devs are able to make Cairo calls that "go outside of the card" so to speak. The games, when you swipe up the card, just act like another card and you go about your business till you wanna swipe back to the card.

Add this to the fact that my Pre took way better pictures than my Droid and now it's getting video editing.

Ugh, :confused::confused: man....seriously, if I could have looked ahead I wouldn't have even bothered with this Droid. In a vacuum it's great, it's got great potential, problem is....Pre users are sitting all high and mighty now and we just got kicked in the balls by Nexus One.

Same thing happened to Hero users too, it's like "Hey, Hero is this great phone that does everything" and then Droid came out and it's like "Hero??? Oh yeah, that crappy old value phone that nobody barely even wants anymore unless you're a Sprint customer.....yeah that thing....lol".

Meanwhile, if you bought a Pre, things just get rosier and rosier.

If the Pre I get here real soon isn't janky, the hardware is better built, and the battery holds up better.....goodbye Droid.
 

Jeremy

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Good luck with the Pre... and I mean that in a really nice way. ;) When it was first released I wanted to like it, really did but the lousy hardware (small screen included) and sluggishness killed it instantly.
 

ardoreal

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Good luck with the Pre... and I mean that in a really nice way. ;) When it was first released I wanted to like it, really did but the lousy hardware (small screen included) and sluggishness killed it instantly.

Like I said, trial run, with extremely cautious optimism.
 

Jeremy

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Like I said, trial run, with extremely cautious optimism.

I hear you. If Palm did make some hardware changes then I could see giving the phone a shot as well. I hear the keyboard is a little different and the slide mechanism has been improved.
 

6tr6tr

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A few comments...

Alright, I've gotta admit, I was seduced by what the Pre was suppose to be from the get go. When I saw it at CES 2009 a year ago I was sold. I was like "This is how they should go."

Then I got a Pre and wow, what a janky pile of crap. WebOS was great and all, but what crap hardware. Seriously, the creakiness, the easily scratchable form factor, the cross hatches in the screen, the dead pixels, the seemingly always imminent battery DEATH, just a bag of hurt all around.

Well, SOME of the hardware sucked and some didn't. The non-tech parts sucked (i.e. the slider, the outer casing, the buttons were all poorly constructed.). However, the tech parts were great (the screen resolution, the CPU/GPU - although GPU wasn't even utilized but it doesn't suck) and the keys on the keyboard are good but they're way too close together.

Now we're looking at the Pre Plus, where Palm's had some time to tweak the form factor, looks like they've ironed out some kinks....oh and what's this? PDK?

What's this!??!!? SERIOUSLY GOOD GAMES??!?!?! AND MORE?!?!?! THEY FIXED THE BLOODY APP LIMITATION ISSUE THAT US ANDROID USERS ARE BLOODY STUCK WITH AND SOMEHOW BY A FRICKEN MIRACLE THE PRE HAS SOME SERIOUSLY IPHONE QUALITY GAMES!?!?!!?
:eek::eek:

This is not the Pre Plus, this is WebOS 1.4. ALL of the things you mention will be available on the regular Sprint Pre as well as the Verizon Pre Plus.

Yes, we developers have been crying for that functionality for a while and Palm has finally come through. It's huge. If used properly, not only will games get better, but the overall lag should be minimized as well.

I mean, we're on a platform by Google?? How did we get leapfrogged like this?

Google's made some amazing and odd choices with their platform. For example, no multi-touch makes no sense (it's NOT an Apple patent issue. See this article for more info: http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/28/apple-vs-palm-the-in-depth-analysis/ ). As slow as Palm's improvements have seen, they're actually moving VERY fast in fixing webOS issues. It seems like they were pushed to rush the product to market (for CES, Sprint and their investors) and then figured they'd add in things that should have been there from the beginning later. I think this path would have been less of an issue if Sprint had been better at advertising the Palm Pre.

Look at Ares, and tell me that isn't just totally cool. I, not exactly being a programmer of any sort, can easily build a beautiful interface and start making an app just for my own little self that I can make do almost anything I want short of a videogame. They have an interface builder tool that's BETTER than interface builder for iPhone SDK. Did we just have Palm out-apple Apple and then just out-google Google at the same time???

A few things about this:

1. UGH.

Now we're in for a whole new generation of Visual Basic applications?! Dealing with fixing those horrible apps for clients over the years (built in a GUI by people who weren't really developers) is NOT making me look forward to all the issues cropping up with apps built in a GUI.

2. AFAIK, Ares cannot and will not be able to build games that utilize OpenGL and the PDK.

...the advantage of the Droid over the Pre is ...maps/navigation

Actually, maps/nav on the Pre is better as it also has multi-touch zooming.

Pre users are sitting all high and mighty now and we just got kicked in the balls by Nexus One.

One interesting thing? After Palm's CES announcement, their stock went up 25%. After Nexus One? Google's went DOWN about 4%.
 

ardoreal

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A few comments...

Thanks for taking the time :)

Well, SOME of the hardware sucked and some didn't. The non-tech parts sucked (i.e. the slider, the outer casing, the buttons were all poorly constructed.). However, the tech parts were great (the screen resolution, the CPU/GPU - although GPU wasn't even utilized but it doesn't suck) and the keys on the keyboard are good but they're way too close together.

No argument there really. Still though, I want something that doesn't feel cheap, chintzy, and can take some use. Ok for example, I refuse to use a phone that I can't just shove into my pocket. These things are meant to go in the pocket, they are small, slim, and inferred to work as such. iPhone was great in the pocket, Droid's great in the pocket, and the Pre was terrible in the pocket because it just wasn't rugged enough. imho, the non-tech parts are just as important. When I busted out my Nokia E71, I thought to myself "Wow, Nokia knows hardware, and THIS thing can take a beating". Take a beating it did, however it was imbalanced. While the non-tech parts were highly superior....it didn't have tech..... :p

This is not the Pre Plus, this is WebOS 1.4. ALL of the things you mention will be available on the regular Sprint Pre as well as the Verizon Pre Plus.

Yes, we developers have been crying for that functionality for a while and Palm has finally come through. It's huge. If used properly, not only will games get better, but the overall lag should be minimized as well.

If there was one thing I learned when I went to a 3GS is that even though a game only required an iPhone 2G/3G, everything was still better on a higher spec. With the extra RAM, I couldn't care less about the Pre, Pre Plus is what will run these games right. Ok here's what gets me though, that it was acceptable in the first place. Google has to be out of their fricken minds, this is a showstopper. The higher ups should have terminated all work on anything else and threw a "all hands on deck!!!" with regards to apps on sd card. Of all the issues in their "bug tracker" this issue is something that the world is universally SCREAMING at Google for and their pompous-ass management is sticking to their guns like a bunch of idiots. I love Android, but come on man....to have the attitude Google has on this is asinine to the extremest possible connotation of the word.

Google's made some amazing and odd choices with their platform. For example, no multi-touch makes no sense (it's NOT an Apple patent issue. See this article for more info: Apple vs. Palm: the in-depth analysis -- Engadget ). As slow as Palm's improvements have seen, they're actually moving VERY fast in fixing webOS issues. It seems like they were pushed to rush the product to market (for CES, Sprint and their investors) and then figured they'd add in things that should have been there from the beginning later. I think this path would have been less of an issue if Sprint had been better at advertising the Palm Pre.

I sort of agree with what you're saying. Andy Rubin's whole "I don't like two handed blahblahblah" is just something I don't buy. Seriously, I think he's lying and that he's skirting around the real issue. I don't think it's a patent issue, I think it's threat based from Apple. I agree about Palm though. It's all the more of an achievement considering their resources vs Apple or Google. They've got some really smart and motivated people crunching away right now. It's skill is what it is.

A few things about this:

1. UGH.

Now we're in for a whole new generation of Visual Basic applications?! Dealing with fixing those horrible apps for clients over the years (built in a GUI by people who weren't really developers) is NOT making me look forward to all the issues cropping up with apps built in a GUI.

2. AFAIK, Ares cannot and will not be able to build games that utilize OpenGL and the PDK.

I see your point, but this invites tasteful interfaces. That's sort of the whole point of WebOS. The really ultra powerful games and apps will not be by Ares developers. However, some Ares developers might come up with some really good utilities or come up with an idea that's more out of the box. I wouldn't say I'm looking for everything to be great, I do expect tons of shovelware and crapware. The price to pay I guess, look at the App store. There's tons of **** in there everybody hates.

Actually, maps/nav on the Pre is better as it also has multi-touch zooming.

No argument there, I meant in the frame of having the Google navigation being for free with Droid, whereas the Pre Plus on VZ will make you pay for VZ navigator. Sprint of course gives theirs away to their customers at no extra charge. We're back to carrier semantics.

One interesting thing? After Palm's CES announcement, their stock went up 25%. After Nexus One? Google's went DOWN about 4%.

LOL!!!!! I hadn't seen that. Talk about kicking in the nuts, hahaha.
 

6tr6tr

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No argument there really. Still though, I want something that doesn't feel cheap, chintzy, and can take some use. Ok for example, I refuse to use a phone that I can't just shove into my pocket.

I agree. The device definitely needs to be more solid, which I've heard the Pre Plus is, but I'll believe it when I see it.


If there was one thing I learned when I went to a 3GS is that even though a game only required an iPhone 2G/3G, everything was still better on a higher spec. With the extra RAM, I couldn't care less about the Pre, Pre Plus is what will run these games right.

I agree to some extent but the increase in speed had nothing to do with extra RAM and everything to do with a switch from interpreted javascript code to native code and usage of the GPU. I think the speed's going to be near identical on PLus/non-plus pre's. The diff. will be the plus can have more cards open.


I sort of agree with what you're saying. Andy Rubin's whole "I don't like two handed blahblahblah" is just something I don't buy. Seriously, I think he's lying and that he's skirting around the real issue. I don't think it's a patent issue, I think it's threat based from Apple. I agree about Palm though. It's all the more of an achievement considering their resources vs Apple or Google. They've got some really smart and motivated people crunching away right now. It's skill is what it is.

Actually, I think it's less of an achievement from that standpoint and more of a: Palm owns a ton of patents (from when they ruled the PDA world) that Apple may also be infringing on with the iPhone.


I see your point, but this invites tasteful interfaces.

The right way to do this is actually to design it first (graphically) and then have a programmer do it later. WYSIWYG built programs are almost never optimized or properly bug-tested.

Good comments/ideas! :)
 

darreno1

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I had a Pre so I can list some of what I considered superior on the Droid:

1. Keyboard: took a little getting used to but I'm faster on the Droid's keyboard. The Pre's keys were too close together like already mentioned. My thumbs ended up fighting with each other.

2. Screen: No brainer. The Droid's screen is better suited to just about everything: Navigation, playing games, web browsing. For me and many users.... bigger is better in this case. The resolution is also better on the Droid.

3. Navigation / GPS: The Pre's was pretty buggy. Some neighborhoods weren't even on the telenav maps and the GPS worked only half the time and took a while to get a fix. I had to reboot the Pre before using the GPS 50% of the time and it was no fun as it took about 2mins or more to boot. Also Telenav, even when it worked, was no match for Google Nav (IMO). Hopefully this will be improved on the Pre Plus.

4. OS lag. Sorry but Android is still much quicker than WebOS overall, even on the Pre Plus. I've seen some videos of the Pre Plus and there was some improvement but the lag was still evident. WebOS will have to completely utilize the GPU to bring it up to speed. The good news is I think that will eventually happen. My Pre was laggy and I put up with it and even made excuses for it until I played with something a lot faster.

5. Form factor. I never quite got used to the small, egg-shaped Pre. I prefer a slab type design. It fits better in my hand and I prefer the overall feel when using it. This is totally subjective BTW.

6. Onscreen keyboard: The Pre's was an experiment brought forward by the homebrew community and was by and large totally useless. The Droid's onscreens are so good, many don't bother with the physical. In landscape mode an onscreen kb on the Pre was a must and there wasn't one which lead to a degraded user experience. I haven't read anything about one on the Pre Plus and if there is, I stand corrected.


With those out of the way, I have to admit, WebOS is an excellent OS with lots of potential and it looks like Palm is on the right track. The card view is hard to beat and they've addressed some of the big gripes: no video recording and no 3d games.

Will I rush to WebOS after having experienced Android on the Droid? Not right now. I've gotten used to Android and they'd have to do better than the Pre Plus. Give me a bigger, sharper screen and a better keyboard for starters. I also care about other apps beside 3d games. Where is the Wifi Analyzer, Shazam, Google Sky, and the multitude of podcast / newspaper / streaming apps? They have some ok ones and the homebrew community is hard at work but overall, the selection is paltry compared to Android. I really don't care how they look either, once they function. What good is a good-looking app with half the function?

The same thing was being said of WebOS before the 3d games showed up: 'Oh they'll never get 3d or the SDK isn't there for 3d or the games will never be great'. Well Palm proved them wrong, why can't Google? The 3dgames will come to Android in droves but they are not the priority IMO.
 

ardoreal

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Honestly, I think 3D games are just waiting in the wings. Several devs have talked about coding for Android and how it's faster and more powerful. The limitation imho is this stupid apps on internal storage decision. I think once they get that out of the way we'll see some amazing and powerful apps start showing up.

I agree on some of the points you made too on this. The screen, aside from being beautiful and bright, is also rugged as hell on the Droid. Pre's screen is just a curved piece of plastic just saying "scratch me". Gorilla glass vs polycarbonate, I mean come on Palm, for real???

As for the other points you made, the form factor, I disagree, I loved it. It sucks you have to cram a smaller screen in there but it didn't look bad to me. The OS lag didn't seem unbearable. Sometimes I still get stuttering when I open my app or notification drawers in Android, and in those times, WebOS seems smoother. Navigation, Google maps for the win. I think Telenav is a pile of crap.

I liked Pre's keyboard though, far better than Droid. Comes down to how you type I guess. As for the onscreen keyboard. Last I heard Swype was not even considering WebOS. I've been thinking about this stuff, and man, I really don't need the Pre anymore. I have become so accustomed to Swype that I think all other soft keyboards are absolutely inferior and absurd by comparison.

Android's got Swype, WebOS does not. Well, looks like that's a done deal. I really have no inclination anymore to give the Pre the time of day.
 

largeselection

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I was alllll for the pre when I first heard about it. Even went so far as to join sprint when the pre came out just so I could get it. I didn't keep it ultimately because sprint was bad in my area, the app catalogue was weak and got like no updates, and the battery was HORRIBLE. Also, the build quality wasn't great. Mine wasn't an oreo, but my friends was and I always felt like mine could the longer I had the phone.

With that said, I thought it was a pretty sweet device. I wouldn't give up my droid for a pre tho. For anyone who has tried the pre-plus...how is the battery life these days? Do you feel like you need a touchstone set up everywhere you spend time (like at the office, at home, at friend's house, etc like I needed with the sprint pre)?

Another post reminded me of another HORRIBLE problem. How quick is opening emails on the pre plus these days? When I had the sprint pre the emails looked great, but took FOREVER to open. I'd click the email and then like 10-15 seconds later the email would be loaded.
 
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Andrew Ruffolo

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I'm glad I left the pre. Usual topics on Precentral include "how many times did you get your Pre replaced?" Mine was 5. "Sprint Pre inaccurate GPS", "General Pre Complaints" including: battery life (which is horrendous! 5 hours for me on moderate use. My Hero got 26 hours last charge). Cut Copy and Paste that is useless, Backup (all my contacts were lost and in 3 months waiting for a fix, I switched phones), almost useless bluetooth (wasn't compatible with modern day cars! epic fail), API support for camera or mic, which means no neat voice dialing, voice recognition, or anything truly hands free.
 

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