Question about HTC's new Unlocking Policy

[FrankXS]

Now that HTC is providing the unlocking code for phones released since September 2011, will that allow developers to provide non-destructive new ROMs (i.e. no need to wipe data) similar to how VZW/HTC does now with their official non-descructive OTA updates?

Reference: http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-vivid-bootloader-unlock-now-available-htc-developer-site

-Frank

 

[tropper]

It seems that would be logical, to me.

 

[paintdrinkingpete]

Now that HTC is providing the unlocking code for phones released since September 2011, will that allow developers to provide non-destructive new ROMs (i.e. no need to wipe data) similar to how VZW/HTC does now with their official non-descructive OTA updates?

Reference: http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-vivid-bootloader-unlock-now-available-htc-developer-site

-Frank

To be honest, I highly doubt it. The need to wipe prior to loading ROMs doesn't really have much to do with *how* a phone's bootloader is unlocked. There are quite a few reasons why you should wipe before installing new ROMs, such as:

- Many ROMs are made up of a lot of different "parts", i.e. components taken from other devices, leaked builds, and even custom code created by the devs. There's really no way to know if the existing data on your phone will play nice with the components of a custom ROM, especially when you consider that...
- Most of the folks installing custom ROMs are coming from a build other than stock, so there's no way for devs to even know where you're coming from when testing if ROMs are compatible with existing data.

The developers a particular ROM are also usually trying to provide support for the users of the ROM. Insisting that users wipe data prior to installing helps the devs know what are real bugs, and what aren't just issues caused by existing data on the device.

(For example, a lot of times if you're installing "ROM X v.3.0", the devs will actually say, no need to wipe IF you're coming from "ROM X v2.0" ... otherwise they still recommend wiping all data).

When Verizon pushes it's updates, they at least have the luxury of knowing that the users they are delivering it to are all running the same software version, so they can do their internal bug collection and testing much easier.

Having said that, it probably would be MUCH easier for Verizon/HTC from a support standpoint to have users devices do a full wipe prior to installing updates. Problem is though, folks would be kicking down their doors in rage if did that. Nobody wants to run an update only to find that all their data is gone, and no one would install updates if they were told they'd lose all their data (and I'd estimate 90+% of users have no idea what's going on and just install updates without even thinking about it).

I'm willing to bet that in some cases when certain "features" that don't make it onto new official updates it is simply because they couldn't get it to work when installing OTA vs on a clean system. (Like, "why didn't HTC/Verizon include Sense 3.0 into this update instead of Sense 2.1?!?!?")

If I were a device manufacturer, I'd probably create a builtin mechanism (app) that would allow users to backup their own data, so that when it came time to update, you could have the phone backup user data automatically and restore once finished.

 

[FrankXS]

To be honest, I highly doubt it.

All good points. However, I believe why the requirement to wipe is there now is because of the vulnerability/hack way of the ROM developers to access the bootloader to begin with. If they have a vendor supplied way there should be no issue with simply adding functionality, apps, integrated Sense changes or replacements, etc. All without wiping data.

Based on your comments I do understand that the current crop of ROMs are almost always better off with a wipe to start. But even those could benefit with updates being non-destructive.

It is my opinion that if a non-destructive method is available, you'll see a whole new philosophy on ROMs emerging. One that simply tweaks/adds/changes existing official ROMs. This wouldn't eliminate the destructive ROM method, just complement it. We'll see, I guess.

I am hoping a dev will chime in with the technical evaluation of this and if it would be possible and/or viable.

-Frank

 

[paintdrinkingpete]

All good points. However, I believe why the requirement to wipe is there now is because of the vulnerability/hack way of the ROM developers to access the bootloader to begin with. If they have a vendor supplied way there should be no issue with simply adding functionality, apps, integrated Sense changes or replacements, etc. All without wiping data.
...

I'm certainly no expert, but I'm not so sure about that. I understand what you're getting at, but ROM devs don't use any vulnerabilities or hacks to access the bootloader. You've already done that by unlocking your bootloader, rooting your phone, and installing CWR.

Basically, if I understand you correctly, could a developer create an update that is installed in the same manner as an OTA update (using the builtin update tool), as opposed to installing in CWR as we do it now? Maybe...but I don't think that changes anything.

The reason most ROMs require a wipe has nothing to do with *how* the phone's bootloader was unlocked...it has to with the fact that if you don't wipe, the existing data on the device is gonna cause problems.

In other words, I'm pretty sure custom ROMs and official updates are actually already installed in a very similar manner, the only difference being that official updates have the entire procedure scripted and custom ROMs need to be manually installed.

Disclaimer: These are just my thoughts, and in no way do I claim to be stating cold hard facts.

 

[FrankXS]

In other words, I'm pretty sure custom ROMs and official updates are actually already installed in a very similar manner, the only difference being that official updates have the entire procedure scripted and custom ROMs need to be manually installed.

Disclaimer: These are just my thoughts, and in no way do I claim to be stating cold hard facts.

Yeah, I wouldn't care for it to be over the air or anything. Just kiinda like a .apk or somethin'. And yeah, of course, these are just my thoughts too.

-Frank

 

[defcon999]

I personally think that it is best practice to WIPE CACHE, WIPE DATA and even do a system format (Mount --> /system --> format). Then install the ROM.

I might be old school because I have formatted hard drives for 25+ years and I have found a lot less problems from a FRESH install instead of a "upgrade". It is a lot easier these days than the old days of:

A:\
FORMAT C:/S

Then the whole partitioning.....ay yay yay.

I digress. For headache's sake (lack thereof), do a fresh wipe and install.

 

[FrankXS]

...For headache's sake (lack thereof), do a fresh wipe and install.

If you were an IT consultant, I think you'd find an update was a whole lot less intense than a "complete wipe". !Aye-yi-yi! Unless you'd enjoy explaining to the company owner why you lost his 20 year collection of family pictures that he had stored in a hidden directory so only he could find them

I have long since abandoned the inflexible stance that a fresh start is always better. When you're dealing with people, it is them you have to please (and yourself). Being technicallly easier or faster is not a vary compelling reason in my mind.

-Frank

 

[defcon999]

If you were an IT consultant, I think you'd find an update was a whole lot less intense than a "complete wipe". !Aye-yi-yi! Unless you'd enjoy explaining to the company owner why you lost his 20 year collection of family pictures that he had stored in a hidden directory so only he could find them

Obviously the company isn't ISO compliant....LOLOLOL. I know our IT guys don't give a crap about what is on your system....if I am having problems and they have to work on the system, they always, always always say "Make sure you backup your data you want to save". If it is company stuff, it resides on the servers.

I have long since abandoned the inflexible stance that a fresh start is always better. When you're dealing with people, it is them you have to please (and yourself). Being technicallly easier or faster is not a vary compelling reason in my mind.
-Frank

I agree Frank to a point. Sometimes I have found people's systems soooooo messed up, it is just faster and easier to do a fresh start. When an IT person (which I am NOT), gets paid by the hour and there are 1000+ seats, they don't have time to necessarily diagnose what happened....they just reinstall and be done with it.

I know where I work, I have all company documents / work on the servers and keep my personal stuff locally.

With that being said....on my TBolt, I find it easier and less headaches doing a fresh install if it is a new ROM.

 

[Ed Witles]

If you were an IT consultant, I think you'd find an update was a whole lot less intense than a "complete wipe". !Aye-yi-yi! Unless you'd enjoy explaining to the company owner why you lost his 20 year collection of family pictures that he had stored in a hidden directory so only he could find them

I have long since abandoned the inflexible stance that a fresh start is always better. When you're dealing with people, it is them you have to please (and yourself). Being technicallly easier or faster is not a vary compelling reason in my mind.

-Frank

Church mate gave me 3 lappies to fix. One would just keep restarting after the XP screen. Boot CDs yielded MUCH spy/mal/trojan infestations. A wipe and reload is really best. But, I like challenges.

Did advise that a wipe would be best and did not have original media. He was ok w/ that - but reluctant.

A reinstall of XP over the current was not destructive and now tidying up the applications.

Won't be as fast as w/ a new install but all data will be intact.

 

[paintdrinkingpete]

If you were an IT consultant, I think you'd find an update was a whole lot less intense than a "complete wipe". !Aye-yi-yi! Unless you'd enjoy explaining to the company owner why you lost his 20 year collection of family pictures that he had stored in a hidden directory so only he could find them

I have long since abandoned the inflexible stance that a fresh start is always better. When you're dealing with people, it is them you have to please (and yourself). Being technicallly easier or faster is not a vary compelling reason in my mind.

-Frank

I *am* an IT consultant (at least that's one of the hats I wear). While I agree with you to a point, if a computer is pretty much FUBAR, it can be much easier to just wipe and start over vs. trying to fix/patch/update/etc. Heck, I'll even take the time to backup files if I can. Granted, my actuall job is a bit above and beyond standard desktop troubleshooting, but I am still asked by friends and family to perform that function quite a bit.

Unlike a lot of "expert help desks" that they have a retail chains, I WILL actually let my customer know if I recommend formatting the disk, and what (if possible) can be backed up first (as well as ask if there's anything of high importance), and what risks are involved. If they don't like it, I'll usually tell them I'll do what I can with it, and give it back to them as they like it.

This is heading a bit off onto a tangent, but the point is that while the benefits of being able to apply updates as a patch on a live system without a wipe are obvious, that still doesn't change the fact that doing a fresh install DOES ensure a greater success rate and cause less problems.

Plus, when it comes to installing ROMs, we are talking about much more that just updates in most cases. Most of the "official" updates I kind of think of as service packs (a consolidated collection of updates intended to patch SPECIFIC software version), but when installing ROMs, especially when changing Sense versions or going from Sense to AOSP or vice versa, you're changing a lot of the operating system components, and the fact is that existing system data on a device can really screw things up if you're not careful.

 

[FrankXS]

Obviously the company isn't ISO compliant....LOLOLOL. I know our IT guys don't give a crap about what is on your system....if I am having problems and they have to work on the system, they always, always always say "Make sure you backup your data you want to save". If it is company stuff, it resides on the servers.

Yeah, been there done that. What you are descibing is a corporate environment with staff IT. IT consultants are the ones who are still standing there after the data is lost. Different animal.

-Frank

 

[FrankXS]

I WILL actually let my customer know if I recommend formatting the disk, and what (if possible) can be backed up first (as well as ask if there's anything of high importance), and what risks are involved.

Yes. And there you have it. Exactly why it is not always better to "just wipe". Just depends. Every situation is different.

Just to try to get this back on topic (probably impossible ) I see now the Thunderbolt is included in the ulockable bootloader. It's easy enough to do it yourself. I went through all the steps but stopped at what I think was the last "do it now" step . Because, I don't think there is anything to gain unless you continue to load a new ROM or somethin'. Does that sound right? Also, I don't think it gives you root either. Or does it? Wish I knew. For now I guess I'll wait till we have some braver soul than I go through with it and see what develops. Or doesn't.

-Frank

 

[paintdrinkingpete]

Yes. And there you have it. Exactly why it is not always better to "just wipe". Just depends. Every situation is different.

Just to try to get this back on topic (probably impossible ) I see now the Thunderbolt is included in the ulockable bootloader. It's easy enough to do it yourself. I went through all the steps but stopped at what I think was the last "do it now" step . Because, I don't think there is anything to gain unless you continue to load a new ROM or somethin'. Does that sound right? Also, I don't think it gives you root either. Or does it? Wish I knew. For now I guess I'll wait till we have some braver soul than I go through with it and see what develops. Or doesn't.

-Frank

It doesn't give you root, it just unlocks the bootloader (which you'll need to get root). And yes, the desire to install ROMs would be the primary reason I believe one would want to do this...especially since now the Revolutionary method doesn't work since the last OTA update.

One risk in doing it this way, through HTC dev, is that there is probably no way to UN-do it. In other words, you void your warranty and there's no going back and trying to "trick" Verizon into believing that didn't. (I would think).

A lot more on that this other thread: http://forums.androidcentral.com/th...thunderbolt-official-bootloader-unlocker.html

 

[FrankXS]

It doesn't give you root, it just unlocks the bootloader (which you'll need to get root). And yes, the desire to install ROMs would be the primary reason I believe one would want to do this...especially since now the Revolutionary method doesn't work since the last OTA update.

One risk in doing it this way, through HTC dev, is that there is probably no way to UN-do it. In other words, you void your warranty and there's no going back and trying to "trick" Verizon into believing that didn't. (I would think).

A lot more on that this other thread: http://forums.androidcentral.com/th...thunderbolt-official-bootloader-unlocker.html

Thanks. Yeah, I didn't like the no direct way of going back myself. However, I'm not much worried about voiding the warranty. If you go through the pages at HTCdev they even explain that it "may" void the warranty but only if the phone is damaged specifically due to the unlocking. Otherwise the warranty is not void. Really, I think it's been this way all along. In my opinion there is way too much made of this void warranty thing.

-Frank

 

[CO Diver]

So, has anyone tried the new HTC process? I read in another forum that it works on the TB.

 

[thaJack]

I'm surprised there is still anyone out there with a locked bootloader on the Thunderbolt.

Sent from my HTC ThunderBolt