Moto X Style: Camera Samples, DxOMark, dpreview

[Ry]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

The main benefit of Camera2API support is that it allows camera software to allow a more powerful quite of settings be manually adjusted (shutterspeed, burst modes) a long with RAW capture for editing in Photoshop. Because Google implemented this into the core Android code, the heavy lifting is done. Motorola could enable support for this and not utilize it with their own camera software, as third part apps could make use of it (FV-5, Manual camera are 2 great third party apps). But to date, they haven't done so.

See this link that discusses some of the aspects, from when it was announced last fall.

Android L Camera 2 API Features Include Burst Mode, HDR+ and More | NDTV Gadgets

What I'm getting at is that Motorola can make their camera great without the new camera API. Essentially, not including it limits third party camera apps. And when it comes down to Motorola calling their camera good, it's gonna be with their software.

Posted via Android Central App (Moto X)

 

[Shepx13]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

What I'm getting at is that Motorola can make their camera great without the new camera API. Essentially, not including it limits third party camera apps. And when it comes down to Motorola calling their camera good, it's gonna be with their software.

Posted via Android Central App (Moto X)

It's more than that. They are missing all the manual control functionality that serious photographers want.

But you obviously want to defend them no matter what and ignore the facts. And that's your right. Just as it's my right to call them out as being hypocritical when they are going to make claims of "best in class camera" when they don't even have third in class functionality.

 

[Ry]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

It's more than that. They are missing all the manual control functionality that serious photographers want.

But you obviously want to defend them no matter what and ignore the facts. And that's your right. Just as it's my right to call them out as being hypocritical when they are going to make claims of "best in class camera" when they don't even have third in class functionality.

Fact is CarmeraAPI2 is irrelevant to Motorola's own camera app because Motorola can already have control of the options the new API makes available.

Even if the Motorola camera had that fine control that "serious" photographers "want", you'd still complain about no CameraAPI2.

Posted via Android Central App (Moto X)

 

[Shepx13]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

Fact is CarmeraAPI2 is irrelevant to Motorola's own camera app because Motorola can already have control of the options the new API makes available.

Even if the Motorola camera had that fine control that "serious" photographers "want", you'd still complain about no CameraAPI2.

Posted via Android Central App (Moto X)

Please don't tell me what I'd complain about. You're obviously just looking to justify their oversight. I don't care if they develop their own standards to use instead did Google CameraApi2. I just want them to do better than their sad software attempts to date.

 

[Ry]

Please don't tell me what I'd complain about. You're obviously just looking to justify their oversight. I don't care if they develop their own standards to use instead did Google CameraApi2. I just want them to do better than their sad software attempts to date.

I'm just saying Camera API 2 isn't necessary for quality photos.

Posted via Android Central App (Moto X)

 

[getbretweir]

Please don't tell me what I'd complain about. You're obviously just looking to justify their oversight. I don't care if they develop their own standards to use instead did Google CameraApi2. I just want them to do better than their sad software attempts to date.

This article is the extent of my CameraApi2 knowledge.

http://spectrastudy.com/camera2-api-on-mwc-2015-devices/

I would assume that if not included, it either lacks the necessary hardware or was cost prohibitive. The other possibility, albeit unlikely, would be Moto developed something comparable, which obviously would've been something they purchased from another company.

I was surprised to see that currently there are no devices that are fully supported.

I think the bottom line is that the Moto X isn't the phone for "serious" photographers. I'm not expecting S6/G4 quality photos, but I'm also not shelling out $600+ for the better camera. I think it comes down to actual results. The M9 has it, and at least the photos I saw were inferior to the G4/S6/iPhone 6+. They're certainly not awful, but the beauty about Android is there's something for everybody.

If camera is what's most important, the G4 or S6 would be a great choice. Personally, I want a reasonably priced, bloat free phone that runs stock and has a great UX, so I'll be looking at the Moto X and Nexus this year.

Moto has never been known for their camera, and I never pay any attention to the lip service from their executives. I mean really, what do you expect them to say? If suddenly that changes, and they all of a sudden make a great camera, that'd be awesome, I just don't think it's realistic though. Like the M10, I highly doubt their gonna all of a sudden make a great camera. And Samsung, when they said TW was gonna be SO much lighter and almost bloat free, did people really believe that? Sure it's lighter, and a lot more tolerable, but it's still TW and it's still Samsung.

Just like it's still Moto, and their known for their user experience, reasonably priced bloat free phones. To think a serious photographer is going to have the same experience on the Moto X, at $399 as they would on the S6, just doesn't seem realistic.

 

[anon(469638)]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

Please don't tell me what I'd complain about. You're obviously just looking to justify their oversight. I don't care if they develop their own standards to use instead did Google CameraApi2. I just want them to do better than their sad software attempts to date.

Let's make this really simple.

Buy another phone that makes use of those oh so important lines of code.

 

[Shepx13]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

Let's make this really simple.

Buy another phone that makes use of those oh so important lines of code.

Wow. I never thought of this. Thanks for your suggestion!

I probably will end up with something else. But I will hound motorola (and any other phone manufacturer) who claims to be having a high end camera experience, when it's obvious it's just lip service.

 

[Ry]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

The phone isn't even out yet. lol.

Posted via Android Central App (Moto X)

 

[getbretweir]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

Wow. I never thought of this. Thanks for your suggestion!

I probably will end up with something else. But I will hound motorola (and any other phone manufacturer) who claims to be having a high end camera experience, when it's obvious it's just lip service.

so I guess they're supposed to say their camera sucks since it's not as good as the S6 and lacks the software you expected?

I thought you raised a decent point at first and took the time to explore your argument, but clearly you have an ax to grind over corporate wording that every single executive alive is trained to say.

good luck "hounding" Motorola, and despite never using the camera, proving that it's inadequate simply because it lacks the software you declare essential for a high end camera experience.

Posted via the Android Central App

 

[garrettvp9]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

This whole OIS issue is kind of like NFC in the one plus 2, except the abscence of OIS makes more sense from a budget point of view.

Posted via the Android Central App

 

[getbretweir]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

This whole OIS issue is kind of like NFC in the one plus 2, except the abscence of OIS makes more sense from a budget point of view.

Posted via the Android Central App

people don't buy Motorola phones for the camera, but for a great user experience on a bloat free, unlocked device for a reasonable price. so yeah, to your point, not having OIS makes sense.

as far as OP2, it's a little surprising they'd omit some features that seem pretty much standard. I don't use NFC so no loss there, but I was really disappointed not to see quick charge ... again, another feature you'd expect to see in 2015.

the problem with One+ is they have an identity crisis. "try to please everybody and you'll please nobody"

Posted via the Android Central App

 

[happasaiyan]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

I don't expect much out of any smartphone camera, because they all suck compared to, you know, an actual camera. They are convenient because we always have them close, but if you are expecting to get high quality pictures out of your smartphone, your expectations might be a bit off.

I see people complaining about pictures taken on smartphones in low light all the time. Then when the new best phone comes out, they all want to see the low light pictures. Guess what? They are still going to suck. If you have a really steady hand (or smartphone tripod) and your subjects don't move, it's possible to take a half-decent pic in low light on your smartphone. Anything else, and it's not going to be pretty.

If I want to take better pictures than my current smartphone takes, I'm not going to be looking at other smartphones. I'll be reaching for my Nikon J1, Coolpix A, or my D600.

The sensor and the glass on the technical side are the biggest contributors to a high quality picture. VR/OIS are nice, but typically only improve about 3-4 stops. It's also useless if you are in low light, but your subjects are moving, as it only helps to correct the movement of the one holding the device taking the pictures.

 

[Shepx13]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

people don't buy Motorola phones for the camera, but for a great user experience on a bloat free, unlocked device for a reasonable price.

You're absolutely right. And look where that has gotten them up to this point with the previous Moto X phones: disappointing sales. In fact, sales for the moto x have been so disappointing, that if it weren't for the Moto G doing so well in emerging markets, Lenovo may not have even bought Motorola.

Look, you can play the fanboy/apologist argument all you want in order to justify your purchase. The fact is that Motorola sees they needed to make drastic changes to the Moto X if they wanted it to be successful. They acknowledged in their release how important it was for people to have a quality cell phone camera. They even added a selfie flash (ugh) to entice buyers.

They definitely upped their game by including a very good, possibly top of the line sensor in it, which is great! And if they couldn't include OIS due to costs, while still disappointing, I can understand that. But there is no excuse for them to not have better software support than they do now. Either by enabling CameraApi2, or just giving us a better app from themselves.

Let's use another analogy. Let's say Hyundai decided to get into the sports car segment. They want to make an affordable sports car that is competitive. And they released a new way to purchase their car direct. You can customize your car's interior and exterior colors and trims. It was a fantastic idea, and lots of people loved it. But the car, being marketed as a Sportscar (flagship), was underwhelming compared to its class rivals when it came to performance.
So they went back and redesigned it. Came back with the same customization options, but included a new, top of the line engine that had just as much power as it's rivals. People rejoiced! But that rejoicing fell to disappointment when they find out that the car is not only available only in an automatic (no manual transmission), but you don't even get the option override the auto transmission temporarily like you can most other cars. So you have all of this power at your fingertips, but you can't really make use of it to the best of its ability because they placed a handicap on it with their transmission choice.

This is my problem with the moto x. No OIS? Ok, I can understand. No real, genuine software support to make the most out their hardware? Very disappointing. I want to support them and their vision for an android phone. I don't like TouchWiz or other skins. But I also don't want to give up other things to get my lag fee android experience.

 

[Shepx13]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

I don't expect much out of any smartphone camera, because they all suck compared to, you know, an actual camera. They are convenient because we always have them close, but if you are expecting to get high quality pictures out of your smartphone, your expectations might be a bit off.

I see people complaining about pictures taken on smartphones in low light all the time. Then when the new best phone comes out, they all want to see the low light pictures. Guess what? They are still going to suck. If you have a really steady hand (or smartphone tripod) and your subjects don't move, it's possible to take a half-decent pic in low light on your smartphone. Anything else, and it's not going to be pretty.

If I want to take better pictures than my current smartphone takes, I'm not going to be looking at other smartphones. I'll be reaching for my Nikon J1, Coolpix A, or my D600.

The sensor and the glass on the technical side are the biggest contributors to a high quality picture. VR/OIS are nice, but typically only improve about 3-4 stops. It's also useless if you are in low light, but your subjects are moving, as it only helps to correct the movement of the one holding the device taking the pictures.

I've really respected your no frills leaks to us, and appreciate them. But I'm very disappointed to see you going this route in their defense. It's the moto x 2014 all over again? "Hey, you don't really need a good camera phone. If you really care, just use a real camera". Sorry, that just doesn't fly.

I not only have a full ILC camera kit, but I have a Nikon coolpix A as my portable option. That was a > $1000 camera on release. But sometimes it's just not feasible to carry it.

I never said I expect quality to rival dedicated cameras. I said I expect quality (and user controls) to match the other competing flagship phones. The quality looks like is there. The controls? Not so much.

Sorry of you think having a software experience similar to other flagships is too much to ask for. I don't. And if they don't want to spend the effort doing so, just enable CameraApi2 (either fully or partially) so I can buy a separate app to do the things I want to.

 

[happasaiyan]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

I've really respected your no frills leaks to us, and appreciate them. But I'm very disappointed to see you going this route in their defense. It's the moto x 2014 all over again? "Hey, you don't really need a good camera phone. If you really care, just use a real camera". Sorry, that just doesn't fly.

I not only have a full ILC camera kit, but I have a Nikon coolpix A as my portable option. That was a > $1000 camera on release. But sometimes it's just not feasible to carry it.

I never said I expect quality to rival dedicated cameras. I said I expect quality (and user controls) to match the other competing flagship phones. The quality looks like is there. The controls? Not so much.

Sorry of you think having a software experience similar to other flagships is too much to ask for. I don't. And if they don't want to spend the effort doing so, just enable CameraApi2 (either fully or partially) so I can buy a separate app to do the things I want to.

My leaks are one thing, my personal opinion is the other. I really do like these phones, and am not "coming to their defense" as much as I am coming to the defense of all smartphones. Should the camera be as good as the S6? Yes, it should. Is it? I really don't know, as I've never used it, nor compared photos side to side with another device. All I can go on at this point is that DXO rated them towards the top of all the smartphones they've tested. They have done their tests with the phones they have. You haven't. So at this point, it looks like the phone will at least be able to hold it's own compared to other phones up to this point.

That is not my point, though. I'm not defending them or their decisions. I just honestly don't care much about smartphone picture quality. I am a photography hobbyist. I will never reach for my phone with the expectation for a good shot, full controls or not. Regardless of whether I could manually control the shutter speed, aperture, and ISO, it doesn't make the sensor bigger or better. RAW output would be welcomed, but do you know whether or not manual controls + RAW is something that Moto hasn't built into their software? I don't. They most likely haven't, but I won't jump to conclusions before ever touching the device or knowing for certain.

 

[syspry]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

You're absolutely right. And look where that has gotten them up to this point with the previous Moto X phones: disappointing sales. In fact, sales for the moto x have been so disappointing, that if it weren't for the Moto G doing so well in emerging markets, Lenovo may not have even bought Motorola.

Look, you can play the fanboy/apologist argument all you want in order to justify your purchase. The fact is that Motorola sees they needed to make drastic changes to the Moto X if they wanted it to be successful. They acknowledged in their release how important it was for people to have a quality cell phone camera. They even added a selfie flash (ugh) to entice buyers.

They definitely upped their game by including a very good, possibly top of the line sensor in it, which is great! And if they couldn't include OIS due to costs, while still disappointing, I can understand that. But there is no excuse for them to not have better software support than they do now. Either by enabling CameraApi2, or just giving us a better app from themselves.

Let's use another analogy. Let's say Hyundai decided to get into the sports car segment. They want to make an affordable sports car that is competitive. And they released a new way to purchase their car direct. You can customize your car's interior and exterior colors and trims. It was a fantastic idea, and lots of people loved it. But the car, being marketed as a Sportscar (flagship), was underwhelming compared to its class rivals when it came to performance.
So they went back and redesigned it. Came back with the same customization options, but included a new, top of the line engine that had just as much power as it's rivals. People rejoiced! But that rejoicing fell to disappointment when they find out that the car is not only available only in an automatic (no manual transmission), but you don't even get the option override the auto transmission temporarily like you can most other cars. So you have all of this power at your fingertips, but you can't really make use of it to the best of its ability because they placed a handicap on it with their transmission choice.

This is my problem with the moto x. No OIS? Ok, I can understand. No real, genuine software support to make the most out their hardware? Very disappointing. I want to support them and their vision for an android phone. I don't like TouchWiz or other skins. But I also don't want to give up other things to get my lag fee android experience.

I'm not sure how this is affecting photo quality, can you post the photos you've taken so far with your Moto X Style so I can what you're referring to?

 

[Shepx13]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

I'm not sure how this is affecting photo quality, can you post the photos you've taken so far with your Moto X Style so I can what you're referring to?

What, can't discuss with facts, so just dismiss? That's fine, move along.

 

[syspry]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

What, can't discuss with facts, so just dismiss? That's fine, move along.

Just asking a simple question

 

[Shepx13]

Re: Moto X Style Camera samples / DXO report

RAW output would be welcomed, but do you know whether or not manual controls + RAW is something that Moto hasn't built into their software? I don't. They most likely haven't, but I won't jump to conclusions before ever touching the device or knowing for certain.

Raw and manual controls are currently NOT supported. The person from dpreview that did the camera test verified this.
That doesn't mean they can't add it later. But until we see a release saying it's upcoming, or it shows up on the phone itself, we can't assume that will change.