08-01-2015 06:48 PM
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  1. girl_Interrupted513's Avatar
    Some good points are made here about Motorola, its relationship with Lenovo, and the influence of Google.

    Under Lenovo, Motorola is more like Google than it ever was | The Verge
    07-30-2015 02:26 PM
  2. Citizen Coyote's Avatar
    There may be some things about the new Moto X that I'm not crazy about, but I do like and appreciate what Motorola is trying to do. Even if I don't pick up the Style, I'll still have my beloved 2014 Moto X to tide me over until the Next Big Thing.
    07-30-2015 02:58 PM
  3. stanleywinthrop's Avatar
    Verge is right on. By selling an unlocked phone compatible with all carriers direct to consumers, Motorola is truly innovating. They can sell it for less by cutting out carrier profit. The carriers will hate this, of course. Lenovo needs to invest heavily in marketing to give it a chance.

    By being GSM carriers there isn't much T Mobile and AT&T can do to prevent it, and rest assured Verizon will make it as difficult as possible.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    07-30-2015 03:59 PM
  4. Sizzers's Avatar
    My impression over here in England is that SIM free (unlocked) phones aren't that popular over in the States?

    They are fairly readily available over here and this is how I buy all my phones, and I do hope it works over there for more people to enjoy the Moto experience (have my eye on the Play by the way).
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    07-30-2015 04:15 PM
  5. Almeuit's Avatar
    My impression over here in England is that SIM free (unlocked) phones aren't that popular over in the States?
    I would say it is mainly due to people being used to payment plays or contract prices -- Over here a lot of Americans do not like to pay full price for their phones. There definitely are some that do (I am one of them) but most don't mind plopping $200 down and signing a contract.
    07-30-2015 04:17 PM
  6. Woosh's Avatar
    Verge is right on. By selling an unlocked phone compatible with all carriers direct to consumers, Motorola is truly innovating. They can sell it for less by cutting out carrier profit. The carriers will hate this, of course. Lenovo needs to invest heavily in marketing to give it a chance.

    By being GSM carriers there isn't much T Mobile and AT&T can do to prevent it, and rest assured Verizon will make it as difficult as possible.
    Idk about innovating....They are not the first maker to do this. But they might be the first to fall from grace in the sense that they had a great relationship with carriers and now this is what they're pushing to do.

    They actually had the pure edition of the first gen Moto X also that I was really proud of Moto for doing that.....But it's not being as adopted as it should be. Google has also been attempting this off and on with the Nexus program but last year had to fall back to the carriers. In the end they're joined at the hip. They need each other....Generally you don't use a phone without service and you don't use a service without a phone. So I hope more and more makers continue to move this path if not only a choice between whether you want to buy from them or get it at the carrier store.

    I don't think carriers are overly unhappy with this way of thinking. The reason they somewhat tried to drop the subsidy program is because it cost them a lot of money to obtain customers. I honestly don't know how 0% interest makes it any better but it seems like it might? Either way they got a nice racket now with the leasing phone option.

    Time will tell how the industry will shift.

    Edit - T-Mo and AT&T also do have the ability to blacklist and block phones even being GSM. Not that they will and I don't think Verizon or Sprint will stop them either. But I'm fairly sure they have that option if they ever wanted to.
    07-30-2015 04:22 PM
  7. Evilnut's Avatar
    I for one applaud Motorola for doing what they're doing. They introduced moto maker in 2013. They introduced the Moto G, which was probably the most disruptive smartphones ever created as it pushed every other manufacturer to begin making lower cost smartphones that actually perform like a smartphone should. Although I still believe that the Moto G is the king of that market segment. And now they have introduced their new flagship phone for the US and are making the bold move of cutting out the bloodthirsty carriers and selling direct to the consumer. By doing this, they are able to keep the cost of the phone much lower and allow us, as consumers, to pick a carrier and a plan that best suits our needs, budget and circumstances. I for one, will be supporting Motorola's decision by purchasing one of their new moto X styles.

    Posted via Android Central App from a beautiful Ebony backed Original Moto X or the amazing Nexus 10
    DC Wuff likes this.
    07-30-2015 04:26 PM
  8. Almeuit's Avatar
    By being GSM carriers there isn't much T Mobile and AT&T can do to prevent it, and rest assured Verizon will make it as difficult as possible.
    Verizon just won't active a new SIM card for service if it isn't going into an "approved" device. If you have an already active SIM and slap it in the phone it will work -- they can't stop it (by law) due to an agreement they made for spectrum.

    Edit - T-Mo and AT&T also do have the ability to blacklist and block phones even being GSM. Not that they will and I don't think Verizon or Sprint will stop them either. But I'm fairly sure they have that option if they ever wanted to.
    Yes any carrier can blacklist any phone if they wanted -- They have to by law. That is how stolen phone IMEI's become "dead" on all carriers. They add it to a blacklist and they all share that blacklist.

    I believe he meant more on the lines of them trying to make it more difficult for their customer's to use the device. GSM carriers (AT&T / T-Mobile) won't block it since they are known for bragging about "Bring your own device!"
    07-30-2015 04:32 PM
  9. stanleywinthrop's Avatar
    Idk about innovating....They are not the first maker to do this. But they might be the first to fall from grace in the sense that they had a great relationship with carriers and now this is what they're pushing to do.

    They actually had the pure edition of the first gen Moto X also that I was really proud of Moto for doing that.....But it's not being as adopted as it should be. Google has also been attempting this off and on with the Nexus program but last year had to fall back to the carriers. In the end they're joined at the hip. They need each other....Generally you don't use a phone without service and you don't use a service without a phone. So I hope more and more makers continue to move this path if not only a choice between whether you want to buy from them or get it at the carrier store.

    I don't think carriers are overly unhappy with this way of thinking. The reason they somewhat tried to drop the subsidy program is because it cost them a lot of money to obtain customers. I honestly don't know how 0% interest makes it any better but it seems like it might? Either way they got a nice racket now with the leasing phone option.

    Time will tell how the industry will shift.

    Edit - T-Mo and AT&T also do have the ability to blacklist and block phones even being GSM. Not that they will and I don't think Verizon or Sprint will stop them either. But I'm fairly sure they have that option if they ever wanted to.
    We aren't talking about a 30 year mortgage or even a 5 year car loan here, so lost interest is negligible. What the carriers get is the full retail price of a phone over 2 years. Full retail being $650 + in most cases. This income is conveniently separated from the income generated by the network, and makes it easy to calculate profit derived directly from the phone.

    As far as AT&T and T Mobile goes, have you ever heard of them blacklisting an entire manufacturer?

    There was no "pure" edition of the original X. I believe it was called the developer edition and it was only GSM compatible. The 2015 X is the first phone from someone other than Google (Nexus 6) that is compatible with all US networks and marketed directly to consumers.

    Yes, it does threaten to cut out a good deal of profit that carriers make in stores. You are correct that success is far from guaranteed. If other makers take notice and start mimicking Motorola the beneficiary is us the customers.
    07-30-2015 04:32 PM
  10. stanleywinthrop's Avatar
    Verizon just won't active a new SIM card for service if it isn't going into an "approved" device. If you have an already active SIM and slap it in the phone it will work -- they can't stop it (by law) due to an agreement they made for spectrum.



    Yes any carrier can blacklist any phone if they wanted -- They have to by law. That is how stolen phone IMEI's become "dead" on all carriers. They add it to a blacklist and they all share that blacklist.

    I believe he meant more on the lines of them trying to make it more difficult for their customer's to use the device. GSM carriers (AT&T / T-Mobile) won't block it since they are known for bragging about "Bring your own device!"
    Blocking individual imeis because they are stolen is a whole different matter from blocking an entire manufacturer.

    And surely you recognize that not being able to take a 2015 X into a verizon store without an already active phone makes it more difficult.

    I'm not currently a Verizon customer. If I want to buy a 2015 X from moto and become a new verizon customer without signing up on a new contract I have to jump through some significant hoops. The average consumer isn't going to want to do that.
    07-30-2015 04:40 PM
  11. Almeuit's Avatar
    Blocking individual imeis because they are stolen is a whole different matter from blocking an entire manufacturer.
    I get that and that is why I explained it out in my post -- He said he thinks they can and I said they could if they wanted but they aren't going to.
    07-30-2015 04:44 PM
  12. Woosh's Avatar
    Verizon just won't active a new SIM card for service if it isn't going into an "approved" device. If you have an already active SIM and slap it in the phone it will work -- they can't stop it (by law) due to an agreement they made for spectrum.



    Yes any carrier can blacklist any phone if they wanted -- They have to by law. That is how stolen phone IMEI's become "dead" on all carriers. They add it to a blacklist and they all share that blacklist.

    I believe he meant more on the lines of them trying to make it more difficult for their customer's to use the device. GSM carriers (AT&T / T-Mobile) won't block it since they are known for bragging about "Bring your own device!"
    Yeah...I get that they won't or that they probably won't right now but you never know if things happen in the future where they find it more profitable to not allow an unsupported device on their network. I doubt we'll see it happen....My only point was I'm sure they have the ability to do so if they wanted to.

    We aren't talking about a 30 year mortgage or even a 5 year car loan here, so lost interest is negligible. What the carriers get is the full retail price of a phone over 2 years. Full retail being $650 + in most cases. This income is conveniently separated from the income generated by the network, and makes it easy to calculate profit derived directly from the phone.

    As far as AT&T and T Mobile goes, have you ever heard of them blacklisting an entire manufacturer?

    There was no "pure" edition of the original X. I believe it was called the developer edition and it was only GSM compatible. The 2015 X is the first phone from someone other than Google (Nexus 6) that is compatible with all US networks and marketed directly to consumers.

    Yes, it does threaten to cut out a good deal of profit that carriers make in stores. You are correct that success is far from guaranteed. If other makers take notice and start mimicking Motorola the beneficiary is us the customers.
    I'm not saying ATT and T-Mo WILL blacklist it....I'm saying they possibly can.

    As far as the interest goes, I get that.....What I don't get is how it's better for the carriers than a 2 year contract. Because either way you get a discount on an Edge program and you pay extra for your phone or they subsidize it for you. I'm just not up to how it would be any more beneficial than to charge more per month for service and subsidize a phone for someone. But I remember Verizon years ago when T-Mo took away subsidies saying it would save them a lot of money if they didn't have to do it.
    07-30-2015 04:46 PM
  13. Almeuit's Avatar
    Yeah...I get that they won't or that they probably won't right now but you never know if things happen in the future where they find it more profitable to not allow an unsupported device on their network. I doubt we'll see it happen....My only point was I'm sure they have the ability to do so if they wanted to.
    I would be .. really really shocked if they did. They get way more money from monthly payments than phones so they aren't going to block free cash due to something as small as a phone purchase. Verizon is the only one who would try (if they could) since they know they have the coverage so they don't care either way.
    07-30-2015 04:48 PM
  14. Woosh's Avatar
    I would be .. really really shocked if they did. They get way more money from monthly payments than phones so they aren't going to block free cash due to something as small as a phone purchase. Verizon is the only one who would try (if they could) since they know they have the coverage so they don't care either way.
    I'll agree with that.....Although since ATT follows just about everything Verizon does you never know with them. My original point is that he said that ATT and T-Mo can't really stop you from using it...I'm just saying that its probably possible that they COULD prevent users from doing it should they ever want to. I don't think they will but I do think they have the ability to.
    07-30-2015 04:55 PM
  15. stanleywinthrop's Avatar
    Yeah...I get that they won't or that they probably won't right now but you never know if things happen in the future where they find it more profitable to not allow an unsupported device on their network. I doubt we'll see it happen....My only point was I'm sure they have the ability to do so if they wanted to.



    I'm not saying ATT and T-Mo WILL blacklist it....I'm saying they possibly can.

    As far as the interest goes, I get that.....What I don't get is how it's better for the carriers than a 2 year contract. Because either way you get a discount on an Edge program and you pay extra for your phone. I'm just not up to how it would be any more beneficial than to charge more per month for service and subsidize a phone for someone. But I remember Verizon years ago when T-Mo took away subsidies saying it would save them a lot of money if they didn't have to do it.
    The difference between the EDGE program and a traditional contract is a math problem. Let's say I walk into Sprint with the intent of walking out with a new iphone and service.

    Today (from sprint's website) I can sign up for Sprint's All in lease progam with unlimited everything for $80.00 a month for two years. That equals $1920 PLUS the value of the phone that must be turned in at the end of the lease. (Maybe $200?) So Sprint makes $2150 over 2 years. You also have the option of paying $199.00 and signing a 2 year contract. The contract per month is $85. This equals $2239, but the customer gets to keep the phone and residual value. The final option is easy pay which would be 23 $27.09 and 1 $26.92 payments plus $60.00 per month for service. This comes to $2089 over 2 years and the customer keeps the phone and residual value.

    As you can see the total revenue isn't all that different. And it's intentional done so. Why? All sprint really cares about is selling phones--the more the better.
    07-30-2015 04:59 PM
  16. syspry's Avatar
    I would say it is mainly due to people being used to payment plays or contract prices -- Over here a lot of Americans do not like to pay full price for their phones. There definitely are some that do (I am one of them) but most don't mind plopping $200 down and signing a contract.
    Sadly there's no incentive to buy outright on a lot of carriers because not very many of them will give you a discount off monthly fees if you BYOD. So for those of on those carriers, you're faced with buying on a 2 year contract for around $100-$200 or paying $400-$600 but still paying the exact same monthly payments.

    When the federal govt made a big show of going after the carriers to eliminate 3 year contracts and reduce or eliminate early cancelation fees, all we ended up getting is higher up front prices for new phones on 2 yr plans and no monthly payment reduction if we buy outright. Basically we got hosed. If I was the mafia I'd get out of gambling and narcotics and into the telecom business where the smarter crooks are raking it in hand over fist with a perfectly legal and consumer unfriendly racket.
    07-30-2015 05:32 PM
  17. Almeuit's Avatar
    Sadly there's no incentive to buy outright on a lot of carriers because not very many of them will give you a discount off monthly fees if you BYOD. So for those of on those carriers, you're faced with buying on a 2 year contract for around $100-$200 or paying $400-$600 but still paying the exact same monthly payments.

    When the federal govt made a big show of going after the carriers to eliminate 3 year contracts and reduce or eliminate early cancelation fees, all we ended up getting is higher up front prices for new phones on 2 yr plans and no monthly payment reduction if we buy outright. Basically we got hosed. If I was the mafia I'd get out of gambling and narcotics and into the telecom business where the smarter crooks are raking it in hand over fist with a perfectly legal and consumer unfriendly racket.
    I don't know many carriers in the US that do this -- AT&T and Verizon will give you a discount for BYOD. They charge you what they charge people on the payment plans (Next or Edge).
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    07-30-2015 06:08 PM
  18. travaz's Avatar
    It is my opinion that Motorola is not doing this in a vacuum. They went to the carriers and told them what they intend to do. Why would you cut your nose off to spite your face? I think the carriers are willing to let Moto do this so they can see how it goes. If you buy one of these "Pure" phones you have the ability to go elsewhere. Bottom line is Verizon doesn't want to lose customers.
    07-30-2015 06:51 PM
  19. Almeuit's Avatar
    If you buy one of these "Pure" phones you have the ability to go elsewhere. Bottom line is Verizon doesn't want to lose customers.
    To an extent. Verizon wants their phones to be branded (such as the Nexus getting their stamp of approval) -- So they won't active a non-approved phone. That is just known / a fact. They just can't stop you if you have an active SIM and slap it into a phone -- they have to let it work. They made an agreement for some spectrum so by law they can't stop an active one. The loop hole for that law is they do not have to activate a new one.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    07-30-2015 06:56 PM
  20. KWKSLVR's Avatar
    Also, we're talking a small amount of users overall. Verizon has nothing to gain or lose in allowing this device but it could act as practice if this model of phone sales becomes the norm.
    07-30-2015 08:36 PM
  21. Evilnut's Avatar
    Motorola made a very conscious decision to do this. I am sure that there was many discussions with the carriers about them going this route. I believe there will be some type of announcement as we get closer to the launch date and when you buy one of these phones out right from Motorola or Best Buy, you will be able to activate service on Verizon if you want to if you don't already have service with them. There has got to be some type of way that Motorola has worked out with Verizon to make this simple for their customers. Motorola is not stupid, this was a planned move and I'm sure they have a plan that will be unveiled as we get closer to the phones launch time.

    Posted via Android Central App from a beautiful Ebony backed Original Moto X or the amazing Nexus 10
    travaz likes this.
    07-31-2015 12:01 AM
  22. syspry's Avatar
    I don't know many carriers in the US that do this -- AT&T and Verizon will give you a discount for BYOD. They charge you what they charge people on the payment plans (Next or Edge).
    Let's say you have an old account with your existing carrier. Do they qualify for BYOD discounts or do you have to switch to a spefic plan that includes that discount? For example:

    Joe is on the same plan he's had for 5 years because Joe gets 6GB data and a bunch of other stuff for a low price that's no longer available on new plans. If Joe wants a BYOD discount can he get it on that existing plan or does VZN/ATT require him to abandon his great grandfathered plan in order to sign up for a new "Next" or "Edge" plan?

    If it's the latter, then that sucks for those of us lucky enough to have grabbed up those unadvertised big data plans for dirt cheap years ago. Well, I guess the consolation is that we're still getting a pretty damn big discount already, but that doesn't mean I don't want my cake and eat it too
    07-31-2015 06:48 AM
  23. benjamminh's Avatar
    Yes, to get that discount at Verizon you have to be on specific plans with particular data levels. I'm happy for those with great grandfathered plans, but they will do all they can to make those less and less attractive.
    07-31-2015 07:02 AM
  24. syspry's Avatar
    Yes, to get that discount at Verizon you have to be on specific plans with particular data levels. I'm happy for those with great grandfathered plans, but they will do all they can to make those less and less attractive.
    That's what I figured.
    07-31-2015 07:53 AM
  25. Almeuit's Avatar
    Let's say you have an old account with your existing carrier. Do they qualify for BYOD discounts or do you have to switch to a spefic plan that includes that discount? For example:

    Joe is on the same plan he's had for 5 years because Joe gets 6GB data and a bunch of other stuff for a low price that's no longer available on new plans. If Joe wants a BYOD discount can he get it on that existing plan or does VZN/ATT require him to abandon his great grandfathered plan in order to sign up for a new "Next" or "Edge" plan?

    If it's the latter, then that sucks for those of us lucky enough to have grabbed up those unadvertised big data plans for dirt cheap years ago. Well, I guess the consolation is that we're still getting a pretty damn big discount already, but that doesn't mean I don't want my cake and eat it too
    That is different -- You made it sound like no BYOD discount is being offered by carriers. If you're on any current plan (as in no "legacy" plan) you get a discount.

    From your first sentence alone:

    Sadly there's no incentive to buy outright on a lot of carriers because not very many of them will give you a discount off monthly fees if you BYOD.
    You said they didn't which isn't true. It is true for legacy plan holders but majority of Americans have swapped so -- they do offer them BYOD discounts.
    07-31-2015 10:31 AM
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