06-01-2018 03:52 AM
29 12
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  1. ianc911's Avatar
    Hi folks,

    I was excited about the S9+ because of the camera's ability to shoot in DNG format which will provide much better image quality when edited in Lightroom than the default .jpg files, but also the fact that it has a 2X optical zoom.

    I'm finding after a little experimentation that shooting DNG does not seem to work properly when using any level of zoom at all.

    If I use the S9+'s auto mode to zoom to 2X optical, then switch to Pro mode, make my settings and take the shot, I find that the resulting DNG image is not made at the 2X zoom, but at 1X. The .jpg will be rendered at the proper 2x optical zoom in which the shot was taken, but the DNG image is only 1x, which means I need to crop the pic in order to get the desired composition, and the resulting image is much lower resolution than it ought to be.

    I suppose I could just stick the phone in people's faces, but that kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? Anyone else seen this behavior, or got a workaround?

    Thanks for listening,

    ianc
    04-02-2018 03:00 PM
  2. lucianus_luciferus's Avatar
    have you tried zooming after switching to pro mode?
    04-02-2018 03:06 PM
  3. Mooncatt's Avatar
    That doesn't make any sense, because the optical zoom is just that, the longer focal length on the lens. It would be physically impossible for the RAW file to be at one zoom level and the SOOC jpeg at another. If the jpeg is different than the raw, it means the jpeg had a digital zoom applied. Are you sure that isn't what's happening here? I don't have this phone, but I have toyed with the digital zoom on my V20 when shooting RAW. In my case, it saves the RAW as its native resolution, even with the jpeg zoomed in.

    The only way I can see your problem happening is if the live view shows the preview via the 2x camera, then takes the actual photo with both cameras. The jpeg processed on the 2x, and the RAW saved from the regular camera. But that would be one really bizarre bug.

    Just in case, try this test. When shooting, cover up the regular camera lens but not the 2x one. When you review the images, are both the jpeg and RAW visible? If so, then you ruled out my dual sensor bug idea and also means the jpeg's are being digitally zoomed for some reason. If the RAW file is black, then you indeed have something goofy going on in the software.
    04-02-2018 04:21 PM
  4. Fred98TJ's Avatar
    A couple of things.
    You didn’t have to get a new phone (S9+) to make photos in raw. All phones the last few years (except for Sony) provides raw support. You would have to use a 3rd party photo app in a lot of cases but that’s ok. Some of the 3rd party apps give you greater control anyway.
    Anyway, I’m guessing that the phone isn’t actually using the longer lens the times you’ve used the “zoom”. If there isn’t enough light the phone will only digital zoom.
    This is how all the dual camera phones work (that I’m aware of). Even if you manually select the longer lens it will still only digital zoom if there isn’t enough light.
    My suggestion would be to use a 3rd party camera app that allows absolute lens selection.
    I haven’t used a native cam app on any phone that I’ve had in the last few years.
    I don’t have a S9 in front of me however I suspect that in “pro” mode it doesn’t give you the complete control that you need to extract the best data from the sensor.
    For instance, can you totally adjust the White Balance (both the temperature in Kelvin and the tint in a wide range with small discrete selections). If you ever want to shoot raw UniWB or using true light control and ETTR (correctly) then you’ll need to be able to micro adjust the WB on the camera before the shot is made.
    04-02-2018 07:25 PM
  5. ianc911's Avatar
    Thanks for the responses guys!

    Good call on the idea of covering up one of the lenses. I used a yellow post-it pad to cover up the normal lens but not the telephoto. In auto mode, the 1x view was always the post-it, and the 2x randomly switched back and forth between digital and optical; I'd go from seeing nothing but the yellow of the post-it pad to seeing the pic through the 2x lens. The switching appeared random, and not dependent on the amount of ambient light as one user suggested. It would be most likely to switch when there was an abrupt change in the lighting conditions rather than from dark to light.

    In Pro mode (the only mode offering the option to save DNG's), under no circumstances was I ever able to get the camera to operate in optical mode at 2x; I only ever saw the yellow of the post-it pad. This was zooming by either tapping the small on-screen zoom button only present in auto mode, then switching to pro, or by zooming in and out manually in pro using the on screen scale.

    So, I guess we've either got a bug, or my phone is defective...

    I guess the next question to ask is if anyone else with an S9+ has observed this behavior?

    Thanks again guys,

    ianc
    Tim1954 likes this.
    04-02-2018 08:30 PM
  6. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Glad you were able to narrow it down some. Just to clarify, if you're in Pro mode and try to zoom in and out, it would ONLY digital zoom and never switch lenses? That would seem odd to me as my V20 will auto switch between the normal and wide angle lens as I zoom in and out (and based only on the zoom level, not lighting or other factors). I would've expected other phones to have similar behavior. I'd be interested to hear others' feedback on this as well, in part because I would actually prefer a telephoto lens over wide angle and so this phone caught my attention a while back.
    04-02-2018 08:43 PM
  7. Fred98TJ's Avatar
    If the S9(+) does not allow you to manual choose which lens you want to use (when in Pro mode, raw), and if that’s the norm on all of then, then simply get one of the 3rd party camera apps that allow you to manually select which cam to use.
    The 3rd party cam apps are, generally, better than the baked in app (for total manual control and raw output) anyway.
    04-02-2018 10:27 PM
  8. ianc911's Avatar
    Hi Fred,

    A third party app could be the way to go, but I don't think any of them (yet perhaps) will allow control over the S9's changeable aperture which is, I think, one of the key differentiators of this particular camera...

    ianc
    04-02-2018 10:36 PM
  9. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Hi Fred,

    A third party app could be the way to go, but I don't think any of them (yet perhaps) will allow control over the S9's changeable aperture which is, I think, one of the key differentiators of this particular camera...

    ianc
    This, and the ability to switch lenses is most often lost in my experience. The third party app typically only uses the "main" rear camera and won't switch to the special (I.e. Wide angle or telephoto options) camera.
    04-02-2018 10:43 PM
  10. Fred98TJ's Avatar
    The couple that I use to use did allow the manual selection of cameras, though I don’t remember which ones those were at the moment. Check some of the better ones. In regards dual aperture probably none (yet) allow that selection.
    The apertures that Samsung choose are odd to me. The short (wide or main lens) is almost certainly going to produce somewhat soft images at f1.5 and, for the sensor size, it’s right at diffraction limited at f2.4.
    04-03-2018 02:23 AM
  11. Fred98TJ's Avatar
    I checked and Open Camera, on the LG V20 (a dual rear camera phone and the only dual rear camera phone that I have available for a quick test right now), will switch between both rear cameras (regular and wide) and the front camera (enable API 2 in the settings) and also produce raw.
    04-03-2018 04:07 AM
  12. ianc911's Avatar
    I tried (what was I thinking?) calling Samsung support to ask about it, since nobody else with an S9+ seems to be stopping by to offer input. Good lord where do they get these people?

    I think the answer I got from them is... inconclusive...

    If this really is a bug (yet to be determined) and not a phone defect, then it sounds like my options are use the native app in low light which allows the aperture to be set manually, and use a third party app to allow me to lock in the telephoto lens in outdoor shots when f2.4 is fine. Stupid...

    ianc

    P.S. Oh, and Fred, I tried Open Camera, but I can't make it use the telephoto lens on the S9+ no matter what I do and I don't see any setting to manually select it either. Sigh...
    04-03-2018 02:20 PM
  13. Fred98TJ's Avatar
    Question about shooting RAW (DNG) format with the S9+-007f55fd-8ea2-4f3e-aeee-e55614f431c1.jpgIanc, again I don’t have a S9+ in front of me to try but regarding Open Camera, you have to make sure you choose API 2 (in the Open Camera settings page) then on the main camera screen the little icon to switch to the front camera will, on the LG V20 anyway, cycle between the two rear cameras (normal and ultra wide) and the front camera.
    04-03-2018 08:31 PM
  14. RaRa85's Avatar
    If the S9(+) does not allow you to manual choose which lens you want to use (when in Pro mode, raw), and if that’s the norm on all of then, then simply get one of the 3rd party camera apps that allow you to manually select which cam to use.
    The 3rd party cam apps are, generally, better than the baked in app (for total manual control and raw output) anyway.
    Wrong. 3rd party apps are seldom better than the fully baked in pro mode in my testings. At least if you have a great manual mode like what LG has. No 3rd party apps offer any useful advantages over LG's. But Samsung could be different but they still seem to offer a lot of options in the pro mode.
    04-05-2018 10:51 AM
  15. RaRa85's Avatar
    In my limited time with Samsung phones I've found that the optical zoom option is nowhere to be found in pro mode. Maybe Samsung has limited to auto shots. In that case that would be normal behavior. On any phone that shoots in RAW, when using zoom you'll always get the original shot in RAW and the zoomed in picture from JPEG. It kind of gives you some extra added flexibility to fall back on that way too. My guess is that in pro mode Samsung for some reason is only using the main sensor.
    04-05-2018 10:55 AM
  16. Fred98TJ's Avatar
    In my limited time with Samsung phones I've found that the optical zoom option is nowhere to be found in pro mode. Maybe Samsung has limited to auto shots. In that case that would be normal behavior. On any phone that shoots in RAW, when using zoom you'll always get the original shot in RAW and the zoomed in picture from JPEG. It kind of gives you some extra added flexibility to fall back on that way too. My guess is that in pro mode Samsung for some reason is only using the main sensor.

    When shooting in raw and DIGITAL zooming, then, yes, the raw file is always the full sensor fov, not the zoomed fov. However when “optically” zoomed (which is not really zoomed, but using another camera with a longer lens) then the raw file from that camera will have the fov of the longer lens.
    On these phones “optical zoom” is a misnomer. There is no optical zooming, it simple switches to the other camera with the loner lens when you reach 2x “zoomed”.
    RaRa85 likes this.
    04-05-2018 08:26 PM
  17. Fred98TJ's Avatar
    I’m going to the mall today. I’ll stop by the Samsung store. My friend there will let me try several S9 Plus phones. I’ll check out the use (or non use) of the longer lens when shooting raw
    04-05-2018 10:14 PM
  18. RaRa85's Avatar
    I’m going to the mall today. I’ll stop by the Samsung store. My friend there will let me try several S9 Plus phones. I’ll check out the use (or non use) of the longer lens when shooting raw
    Yeah check it out. But the 2x button is missing when you switch to that mode which limits the second lens to auto only shots even though it has OIS just like the main lens. Maybe just an oversight by them.
    04-05-2018 10:16 PM
  19. Bring It On 2's Avatar
    Confirmed on mine that as soon as I switch from auto to pro mode that the lens changes back the primary instead of the zoom.
    RaRa85 likes this.
    04-05-2018 10:20 PM
  20. RaRa85's Avatar
    Hi folks,

    I was excited about the S9+ because of the camera's ability to shoot in DNG format which will provide much better image quality when edited in Lightroom than the default .jpg files, but also the fact that it has a 2X optical zoom.

    I'm finding after a little experimentation that shooting DNG does not seem to work properly when using any level of zoom at all.

    If I use the S9+'s auto mode to zoom to 2X optical, then switch to Pro mode, make my settings and take the shot, I find that the resulting DNG image is not made at the 2X zoom, but at 1X. The .jpg will be rendered at the proper 2x optical zoom in which the shot was taken, but the DNG image is only 1x, which means I need to crop the pic in order to get the desired composition, and the resulting image is much lower resolution than it ought to be.

    I suppose I could just stick the phone in people's faces, but that kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? Anyone else seen this behavior, or got a workaround?

    Thanks for listening,

    ianc
    So I guess the work around would be just to shoot the desired shots in auto mode using the proper optical lens given you have enough light. Not sure how third party play with the second sensor or if the developers have updated their apps to take use of it.
    04-05-2018 10:28 PM
  21. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Well this stinks. Who thought it was a good idea to limit capabilities in the supposedly more capable "pro" mode?
    RaRa85 likes this.
    04-05-2018 10:28 PM
  22. RaRa85's Avatar
    Well this stinks. Who thought it was a good idea to limit capabilities in the supposedly more capable "pro" mode?
    Well that's what happens when you just copy and paste from previous years and not update your own camera app.lol The "oh yeah we do have two sensors now"can light bulb hasn't turned on as this is still fairly new territory for them with the Note 8 being the first. But they have a pretty flexible pro mode as is and I like the ability to set a custom color profile and use that for video. Definitely helps with the oversaturation of colors.
    04-05-2018 10:39 PM
  23. Fred98TJ's Avatar
    Yeah check it out. But the 2x button is missing when you switch to that mode which limits the second lens to auto only shots even though it has OIS just like the main lens. Maybe just an oversight by them.

    I checked several S9 plus’s and confirmed that while in pro mode it appears there is no way to access the longer lensed camera for raw shooting. I even downloaded Open Camera and set it up. It would only switch between the wide and FFC. No longer lens cam.
    Also the Pro mode doesn’t allow tint adjustments to the WB, only K temp., which means (without the use of a 3rd party camera app and I didn’t check any of them for that) you can’t shoot UniWB and TCL raw captures. Really limits the phone.
    BTW, I check the Note 8’s and they are the same as the S9 Plus.
    IMVHO, Samsung really pooched this one with their cams.
    RaRa85 likes this.
    04-06-2018 03:14 AM
  24. RaRa85's Avatar
    I checked several S9 plus’s and confirmed that while in pro mode it appears there is no way to access the longer lensed camera for raw shooting. I even downloaded Open Camera and set it up. It would only switch between the wide and FFC. No longer lens cam.
    Also the Pro mode doesn’t allow tint adjustments to the WB, only K temp., which means (without the use of a 3rd party camera app and I didn’t check any of them for that) you can’t shoot UniWB and TCL raw captures. Really limits the phone.
    BTW, I check the Note 8’s and they are the same as the S9 Plus.
    IMVHO, Samsung really pooched this one with their cams.
    I just think not enough attention has been brought to it for Samsung to realize it. When they added the second sensor on the Note 8 they forgot to add that part in the pro mode since I believe it's the same pro mode from previous years with addition of focus peaking when using manual focus. They probably won't change it unless enough users bring attention to it on an official Samsung forum I guess.
    04-06-2018 06:23 AM
  25. Rukbat's Avatar
    IMVHO, Samsung really pooched this one with their cams.
    So how's the voice quality on your DSLR?

    All this stuff, OIS, RAW, 2 lenses, was added to impress the casual "shoot everything in site and upload it to my social networking page so everyone will always know what I'm doing" crowd with a "real DSLR in a phone", not something aimed at the professional photographer to not have to carry both a phone and a camera (and a few lenses, filters, etc.) If you really need the control (and real RAW mode, which phones aren't actually doing), you're just going to have to carry the camera bag. (I'm glad I gave up all that stuff, even though I now have the space to construct a real darkroom in the house. Snapping shots with some OIS and auto-focus/exposure is enough for me now.)
    04-06-2018 02:24 PM
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