How to effectively use a task killer with Froyo

[markymark]

The only thing that kills battery life in Android is something using the cpu, cell radio, bluetooth, GPS, etc etc continuously. An app that people think is running in the background is not actually running. It's using uncached space in the system memory because android see a usage pattern with that app. If it didn't do this it would be a slower start-up then everyone would be complaining that their phones are slow.

The bottom line is you can't say that an app improves battery life on your phone when you have a malformed app that isn't running correctly with the system. That's what most of the "experts" call a bandaid fix. Next time your alarm doesn't work just download a different alarm app to fix it.....does that make sense to you? If you have an app that doesn't perform correctly with the android system it's not the systems fault and the only way to make sure that apps do work correctly is for the system to take control of the services running and do it's thing. IE Froyo.

In the end Auto Kill is the only thing that doesn't work, and ATK hasn't be written, at least the free one hasn't, to work with Froyo correctly. System panel still shuts services down, they don't start back up etc.......but yeah the "feature" has been removed..........

We can argue ad nauseum whether an app is actually running or not. I don't know the internals of the Android OS so I couldn't tell you one way or another. But I CAN tell you without question that my battery drains considerably faster with 2.2 and takes significantly longer to charge with 2.2, with all other apps and settings being equal. I have EXACTLY the same apps running on 2.2 that I had on 2.1, and after factory resetting my phone (twice) I have EXACTLY the same settings that I had on 2.1. So the ONLY thing that has changed is 2.2 vs 2.1. Even under 2.1, although I had ATK installed, I never used autokill and only used ATK to kill some memory hogs like maps, navigation, google earth etc. I have run 2.2 with and without ATK and battery life is worse than 2.1 either way.

So I guess my point is I wouldn't mind them removing the API that allows you to kill tasks, if they had fixed the underlying problem that was necessitating it's use in the first place. I agree with you that a task killer in the wrong hands can do more harm than good. But task killers didn't spring up and become popular for no reason. They sprung up and became popular because there was a need for them. Because there was an issue with battery life and ATK made it better. Now to use your analogy, with the "upgrade" to 2.2 they took away the "band-aid", but they didn't do anything to fix the wound that it was covering up, in fact the wound has gotten worse and now you don't even have a bandaid to cover it up.

 

[sethlamb]

We can argue ad nauseum whether an app is actually running or not. I don't know the internals of the Android OS so I couldn't tell you one way or another. But I CAN tell you without question that my battery drains considerably faster with 2.2 and takes significantly longer to charge with 2.2, with all other apps and settings being equal. I have EXACTLY the same apps running on 2.2 that I had on 2.1, and after factory resetting my phone (twice) I have EXACTLY the same settings that I had on 2.1. So the ONLY thing that has changed is 2.2 vs 2.1. Even under 2.1, although I had ATK installed, I never used autokill and only used ATK to kill some memory hogs like maps, navigation, google earth etc. I have run 2.2 with and without ATK and battery life is worse than 2.1 either way.

So I guess my point is I wouldn't mind them removing the API that allows you to kill tasks, if they had fixed the underlying problem that was necessitating it's use in the first place. I agree with you that a task killer in the wrong hands can do more harm than good. But task killers didn't spring up and become popular for no reason. They sprung up and became popular because there was a need for them. Because there was an issue with battery life and ATK made it better. Now to use your analogy, with the "upgrade" to 2.2 they took away the "band-aid", but they didn't do anything to fix the wound that it was covering up, in fact the wound has gotten worse and now you don't even have a bandaid to cover it up.

Amen to that. 2 things this phone needs....the above and a app to work with Blackberry BBM

 

[howarmat]

I never implied that "task killing" was or wasn't removed. I can still close apps, that I've added to the phone, just fine if I need too. And they don't come back. I was talking about some of the posters talking about the hows and why or what it does, and it isn't fact. The taking away of task killers is the same thing, you can still do it, you just can auto do it with ATK......

Bad thing is, is when people say Android is Linux. The footwork, the base, or android is Linux.....however Android is so far branched off from Linux hardly anything is the same really. That's kind of like claiming Windows CE is Windows XP or Vista. Either way, the point here is we aren't talking about system admins or actually server / network administrators crying because they can't shut services down, we are talking about mom and pop cell phone users. Most of them don't even know what ATK is much less the market.

I think the reason behind most of this was to control the key core services that make the phone operate. You know all the people complaining because their alarms don't work, that maps doesn't work, the calendar doesn't work, the phone is crashing etc etc etc. Why? Bottom line ended up being, "hey I uninstalled ATK like you guys said and all my issues are gone." Kind of makes running one a moot point for the simple fact that all the "sysAdmins" out there using their phones don't know how to properly setup a task killer to where it helps more than harms. That's why the "feature" has been removed. With that being said any app that is in the data/app directory and not the system/app directory can still be auto killed from what I've seen.

Your point with the virus, really shows how much "linux" you know about, and the functioning of recovery mode, or in Windows they it could be akin to safe mode. Read a bit and you will see why none of what you said makes sense.



The only thing that kills battery life in Android is something using the cpu, cell radio, bluetooth, GPS, etc etc continuously. An app that people think is running in the background is not actually running. It's using uncached space in the system memory because android see a usage pattern with that app. If it didn't do this it would be a slower start-up then everyone would be complaining that their phones are slow.

The bottom line is you can't say that an app improves battery life on your phone when you have a malformed app that isn't running correctly with the system. That's what most of the "experts" call a bandaid fix. Next time your alarm doesn't work just download a different alarm app to fix it.....does that make sense to you? If you have an app that doesn't perform correctly with the android system it's not the systems fault and the only way to make sure that apps do work correctly is for the system to take control of the services running and do it's thing. IE Froyo.

In the end Auto Kill is the only thing that doesn't work, and ATK hasn't be written, at least the free one hasn't, to work with Froyo correctly. System panel still shuts services down, they don't start back up etc.......but yeah the "feature" has been removed..........

this right here is the key to understanding everything is this debate. what is actually running and eating CPU cycles and what is cached and NOT using CPU cycles

Battery life is better on 2.2 actually and im NOT using a task killer

 

[Qazme]

this right here is the key to understanding everything is this debate. what is actually running and eating CPU cycles and what is cached and NOT using CPU cycles

Battery life is better on 2.2 actually and im NOT using a task killer

Exactly right. I'm not talking about the battery not lasting as long on 2.2 or it taking longer to charge, that's a whole other debate. The debate is about being able to control shutting down programs.....you still have that ability to anything that doesn't lay in the system/app directory. NONE, at least on my phone, of the apps that you add will stay running or start back running once you stop them.

ATK doesn't auto kill anymore because the author hasn't updated his free app with the ability to do so. So not having the bandaid anymore, or not knowing where to get it are two different things. Kind of funny his paid app doesn't have this issue....an really funny that some of the other "task killer" apps don't either. System panel to name one. So go get your bandaid.

One thing I think people often forget is that widgets will start back up regardless like pandora / slacker / beautiful widgets etc because your phone is using them. So will the keyboards etc etc etc. This is just one of those situations people gripe about because 'evil google' has taken away their ability to control their phone, and it simply isn't true. If they removed the issue causing it in the first place it would be bad developers, bad apps, or people not willing to replace them! Certainly everyone can agree a totally vanilla phone with no added apps the phone works fine, or ok....because unless I'm lost here that's what everyone is comparing too?!

At the end of the day instead of using a task killer to fix your battery drainage issues why not figure out the problem app and replace it? There are plenty of apps that do the same things for either free or better.

I'm also with Howarmat on the 2.2 'issues'. My battery life increased by about 3 hours(16-20 hours total depending on usage for the day), even though it does take a bit longer to charge. Then again it could be I have an extended battery and I get rid of problem apps that keep my phone awake too.....of course rooting and using a more efficient version of android with a tweaked kernel helps some too!

 

[Revolutionary]

We can argue ad nauseum whether an app is actually running or not. I don't know the internals of the Android OS so I couldn't tell you one way or another. But I CAN tell you without question that my battery drains considerably faster with 2.2 and takes significantly longer to charge with 2.2, with all other apps and settings being equal. I have EXACTLY the same apps running on 2.2 that I had on 2.1, and after factory resetting my phone (twice) I have EXACTLY the same settings that I had on 2.1. So the ONLY thing that has changed is 2.2 vs 2.1. Even under 2.1, although I had ATK installed, I never used autokill and only used ATK to kill some memory hogs like maps, navigation, google earth etc. I have run 2.2 with and without ATK and battery life is worse than 2.1 either way.

So I guess my point is I wouldn't mind them removing the API that allows you to kill tasks, if they had fixed the underlying problem that was necessitating it's use in the first place. I agree with you that a task killer in the wrong hands can do more harm than good. But task killers didn't spring up and become popular for no reason. They sprung up and became popular because there was a need for them. Because there was an issue with battery life and ATK made it better. Now to use your analogy, with the "upgrade" to 2.2 they took away the "band-aid", but they didn't do anything to fix the wound that it was covering up, in fact the wound has gotten worse and now you don't even have a bandaid to cover it up.

Do the legwork. A task killer is only a bandaid for the lazy. Check your battery history (SpareParts or *#*#4636#*#* in the dialer -- the stock battery information menu is not sufficient) and see what is consuming most of your battery. Mitigate that problem (delete it, adjust its sync, remove its widget, etc).

 

[markymark]

Do the legwork. A task killer is only a bandaid for the lazy. Check your battery history (SpareParts or *#*#4636#*#* in the dialer -- the stock battery information menu is not sufficient) and see what is consuming most of your battery. Mitigate that problem (delete it, adjust its sync, remove its widget, etc).

LOL....do the legwork? That's hilarious. Dude that is what they pay the devolopers for.....like the average Android phone user has the time or desire to go thru the system menus and analyze their battery usage? You are missing the point. Under 2.1 the battery life was great. Under 2.2 it's not so great. Is it my responsibility to analyze why that is? I am the end user. It's not my job to analyze battery usage. It's my job to use the phone. It's the developers' job to make sure it works properly before they release it to me.

I work for a software development company. If there is a problem with our software, I don't go to the end user and ask them to debug the problem. That's not their job, that's our job. They have their own job to do, they don't have time to do our job too. It's our job to make sure that the software works correctly and efficiently before we deliver it. And if there is a problem that effects the user, we sometimes might give them a temporary workaround until we can come up with a permanent fix. Hence, the task killer.

 

[Qazme]

Software developement and cell phone usage is two different things. My phone has great battery life, in fact better than when it was on 2.1. I would take his suggestion and find out why your phone isn't working as good. Task killers are not the answer.

 

[Revolutionary]

LOL....do the legwork? That's hilarious. Dude that is what they pay the devolopers for.....like the average Android phone user has the time or desire to go thru the system menus and analyze their battery usage? You are missing the point. Under 2.1 the battery life was great. Under 2.2 it's not so great. Is it my responsibility to analyze why that is? I am the end user. It's not my job to analyze battery usage. It's my job to use the phone. It's the developers' job to make sure it works properly before they release it to me.

I work for a software development company. If there is a problem with our software, I don't go to the end user and ask them to debug the problem. That's not their job, that's our job. They have their own job to do, they don't have time to do our job too. It's our job to make sure that the software works correctly and efficiently before we deliver it. And if there is a problem that effects the user, we sometimes might give them a temporary workaround until we can come up with a permanent fix. Hence, the task killer.

Qazme is 100% right. Battery problems under 2.2 are subjective. My battery life is better under 2.2 than it was under 2.1. You cannot say across the board "FROYO IS TO BLAME!!! BLAAAAHAHAAA! " (Not that you did, but that is becoming the tone around here).

The simple fact is that some apps don't play well on the new platform (*cough* ATK *cough*) and they cause battery problems. It is not the Android coder's fault that the end user has installed janky, battery draining software. ATK is a bandaid for correcting problems caused by that software (under your very own justification for ATK's use) -- since ATK no longer works, you have to do the legwork. To suggest that the Android developer is responsible for ensuring that the end-user experience is perfect, regardless of the software that user has installed, is like asking Microsoft (or Apple, or whoever) to debug your company's software.

 

[markymark]

Qazme is 100% right. Battery problems under 2.2 are subjective. My battery life is better under 2.2 than it was under 2.1. You cannot say across the board "FROYO IS TO BLAME!!! BLAAAAHAHAAA! " (Not that you did, but that is becoming the tone around here).

The simple fact is that some apps don't play well on the new platform (*cough* ATK *cough*) and they cause battery problems. It is not the Android coder's fault that the end user has installed janky, battery draining software. ATK is a bandaid for correcting problems caused by that software (under your very own justification for ATK's use) -- since ATK no longer works, you have to do the legwork. To suggest that the Android developer is responsible for ensuring that the end-user experience is perfect, regardless of the software that user has installed, is like asking Microsoft (or Apple, or whoever) to debug your company's software.

You have a point. But I am not using any rare exotic software on my phone, all of my apps are standard apps that are used by hundreds of thousands of people. I have 3 email accounts (1 Touchdown, 1 IMAP, 1 Gmail) that sync every 15 minutes. I don't use facebook or twitter or any other social networking apps. Once in a while I use SportsTap or browse the web with the standard HTC browser. Or a little bit of streaming with Pandora or RadioTime. Or Yelp to find a restaurant. Very basic stuff. And I have stopped using ATK. And my battery life is pretty much cut in half under 2.2. And I haven't even used Maps or Navigation or any of the real battery-killers under 2.2 yet.

Based on what I'm reading on this and other forums, if your battery life is better under 2.2 then you are in the extreme minority. And I'm guessing you are probably rooted and running a custom ROM and maybe have removed some of the bloatware off your phone. I am stock 2.2 as are the vast majority of people.

I guess I would say Froyo is to blame, in the sense that all other things being equal, it's the only thing that has changed on the phone. You're right, it might not be Froyo itself, it could be the way a certain app interfaces with it. But the root cause is still the upgrade to Froyo. I suppose I could factory reset my phone again and load on each app one at a time to see if I can pinpoint one app that is causing it, but that's a major PITA. I would think that should have been part of the QA process for HTC/Verizon. They should have made sure it was compatible with the all of the standard widely used Android apps, and given the software developers beta versions of 2.2 to make sure their software was compatible.

Don't get me wrong, I still really like the phone, I just liked it better before the upgrade. There is nothing new in 2.2 that is of any use to me, and my battery life was much better before. I just wish Verizon would give us the option to go back to 2.1 until some of the issues are ironed out. Hopefully some fixes are on the way.

 

[howarmat]

touchdown has caused some peoples phones not to sleep properly and constantly ping for emails. Might want to stop using that for a bit to see

 

[markymark]

touchdown has caused some peoples phones not to sleep properly and constantly ping for emails. Might want to stop using that for a bit to see

I have it set up to sync every 15 minutes. My exchange server doesn't support active sync. I don't think its a problem with the phone sleeping....right now I have up time 89:57:21, awake time 6:01:29. So it seems like its sleeping ok.

 

[markymark]

I'm gonna try running the battery all the way down to zero and recharge. Maybe the phone isn't recognizing the extended battery and it needs to re-calibrate or something. Worth a try.

 

[howarmat]

I have it set up to sync every 15 minutes. My exchange server doesn't support active sync. I don't think its a problem with the phone sleeping....right now I have up time 89:57:21, awake time 6:01:29. So it seems like its sleeping ok.

i would agree with that awake time i think its sleeping ok

 

[Fahrenheit]

Let's separate opinion from fact.

Bad thing is, is when people say Android is Linux. The footwork, the base, or android is Linux.....however Android is so far branched off from Linux hardly anything is the same really. That's kind of like claiming Windows CE is Windows XP or Vista.

Sorry, incorrect. Android is Linux; it uses the same scripting, same shells, same compilers. You can write a program that runs in Android, and also runs in Ubuntu Linux. Yes, Android is modified, but it's Linux in the background. Windows CE\Mobile executables could not run in Windows 95\XP\Vista...they're completely separate architectures, completely separate compilers.

Your point with the virus, really shows how much "linux" you know about, and the functioning of recovery mode, or in Windows they it could be akin to safe mode.

This attempt at an argument must be a compliment, because you didn't refute my point, or offer a solution...and you imply that I know alot about Linux, so, thanks! Low-level apps (or viruses) can be written to run in recovery or safe mode. I'll re-quote myself because, maybe you forgot to answer my question...or maybe you don't know how, which is OK:

Let's play devil's advocate. A developer writes a virus that automatically loads on startup. If you see it running in the background, you'd want to kill it, then delete it. However, as it stands now, you kill it, Android starts it back up, so you can't delete it. How do you remove it?

Onward!

 

[Revolutionary]

You have a point. But I am not using any rare exotic software on my phone, all of my apps are standard apps that are used by hundreds of thousands of people. I have 3 email accounts (1 Touchdown, 1 IMAP, 1 Gmail) that sync every 15 minutes. I don't use facebook or twitter or any other social networking apps. Once in a while I use SportsTap or browse the web with the standard HTC browser. Or a little bit of streaming with Pandora or RadioTime. Or Yelp to find a restaurant. Very basic stuff. And I have stopped using ATK. And my battery life is pretty much cut in half under 2.2. And I haven't even used Maps or Navigation or any of the real battery-killers under 2.2 yet.

Based on what I'm reading on this and other forums, if your battery life is better under 2.2 then you are in the extreme minority. And I'm guessing you are probably rooted and running a custom ROM and maybe have removed some of the bloatware off your phone. I am stock 2.2 as are the vast majority of people.

I guess I would say Froyo is to blame, in the sense that all other things being equal, it's the only thing that has changed on the phone. You're right, it might not be Froyo itself, it could be the way a certain app interfaces with it. But the root cause is still the upgrade to Froyo. I suppose I could factory reset my phone again and load on each app one at a time to see if I can pinpoint one app that is causing it, but that's a major PITA. I would think that should have been part of the QA process for HTC/Verizon. They should have made sure it was compatible with the all of the standard widely used Android apps, and given the software developers beta versions of 2.2 to make sure their software was compatible.

Don't get me wrong, I still really like the phone, I just liked it better before the upgrade. There is nothing new in 2.2 that is of any use to me, and my battery life was much better before. I just wish Verizon would give us the option to go back to 2.1 until some of the issues are ironed out. Hopefully some fixes are on the way.

No other comments than, no, I'm not rooted -- pure stock 2.2, and my battery life has indeed improved (although I had things pretty well buttoned down on 2.1, which likely helps). Check my post history for confirmation -- I've commented several times that I can't root for work/IT reasons (although I'm currently finagling a work-around for that... I want my ROOT!).

I'll also add that Verizon has to be considering a bug-fix update -- based on the number of first-post "HELP!" requests around these parts since the OTA, there are a lot of users out there experiencing problems. User/app-created or not, like it or not, Verizon is probably going to make that HTC's problem.

 

[Qazme]

Let's separate opinion from fact.

Sorry, incorrect. Android is Linux; it uses the same scripting, same shells, same compilers. You can write a program that runs in Android, and also runs in Ubuntu Linux. Yes, Android is modified, but it's Linux in the background. Windows CE\Mobile executables could not run in Windows 95\XP\Vista...they're completely separate architectures, completely separate compilers.

This attempt at an argument must be a compliment, because you didn't refute my point, or offer a solution...and you imply that I know alot about Linux, so, thanks! Low-level apps (or viruses) can be written to run in recovery or safe mode. I'll re-quote myself because, maybe you forgot to answer my question...or maybe you don't know how, which is OK:

Of course Android uses the same compilers etc as linux at the base of it all, as I said, it is linux but forked. If every app that runs in linux runs on android then why don't they? Everything has to be compiled to run with the android kernel not the bsd kernel etc. It's different. Please, as you suggest, resort to an 'adult' conversation you are making yourself look petty.

As far as the virus debate, virus can run whenever the lower level systems they need are loaded. In a recovery environment you aren't loading Android at all, so no your point is invalid. You would simply load into recovery in that situation, mount the system partition and possibly the data partition depending on how the virus was written and delete it from the system. Not to mention that in Windows virus's can replicate themselves and spread, last I checked when you install an app in Android it's self contained inside an apk file and uses resources api's to perform a task. And a virus would have to work the same way unless they gain adb shell and a usb connection to your phone. Removing the single apk, or even if it could replicated itself into other apk's, simply removing them in recovery, you know where they aren't loaded into memory, would nullify anything you have said about it.

I could get into programming, debugging, and virus debates about linux, windows, or android with you but it wouldn't prove anything and obviously you are always right. But then again 'adults' are aways right huh? BTW seriously if you are going to attempt personal attacks at least make them above a high school level.

 

[Fahrenheit]

last I checked when you install an app in Android it's self contained inside an apk file

Last I checked, not all programs are stored in apk's. For example, busybox, chmod, dmesg, gzip, ifconfig, ls, kill, mv, etc. live in /system/bin/, are installed, can be executed, aren't compressed into .apk files, and don't show up in the "Managed applications" list.

In a recovery environment you aren't loading Android at all, so no your point is invalid.

If you're rooted with S-OFF, it would be possible for a virus to load on your phone, download a custom recovery, reboot your phone, automatically load the new recovery, and do all kinds of fun things. Of course it doesn't exist yet, but virus writers are creative.

Anyway, this could go around and around forever. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Qazme]

No I see your point, and makes more sense to me besides a 'cut down' reply. I'll yield and see your point. Even I can accept when someone has pointed out a well constructed argument. (I didn't even think about the things inside /bin/ or /xbin/ in the heat of argument!)

However, the argument I would bring up is installed 3rd party apps are installed through an apk file. Even busybox (the market version) is installed through an apk installer app. So in effect the only way that would happen would be in the event someone put it on their own phone or someone gained access directly to your phone. (Then again it's possible that a website exploit could happen in theory but hasn't been proved in concept, not to mention it would download to the wrong directory to be of any use.)

As far as the S-OFF all that does is turn off signature validation for firmware updates, ie radio or system img files it also unlocks the nand to be fully writable. So the only way that a virus could be loaded into your phone would be through a malformed update.zip, img file etc. that the user themselves place onto their phone, because after all its in the wrong directory. I suppose you could be tricked into downloading a file into the root of your phone's sdcard and letting it reboot.

In the end, it hasn't proven to be practical in theory or concept that a virus could or couldn't be developed and be effective on the Android platform. And in my opinion something you could take care of inside of recovery pretty easily even in the event something was to happen.

I still have no clue what this argument has anything to do with task killers even with the original idea was shutting down a 'virus' to be able to delete it. Which could be solved, even if it was possible, in worst case scenario's by booting into recovery and mounting the /system/app, data/app etc directories and simply deleting the files. The same way we got rid of the CityID 'virus' lol.

Either way agree to disagree it is, no hard feelings, just felt the debate degraded to a point it really didn't need to go.

 

[Fahrenheit]

Yeah, no hard feelings either. Sorry I got a bit lippy . You're right in that all this virus talk is theoretical...but I bet 10 years ago, no one thought Adobe Flash would be the gaping security hole it is today ;-)

I think its safe to say we hijacked this thread beyond anyone's wildest expectations!

Sent from Incredible

 

[Qazme]

Yeah nobody would have thought about Adobe being the issue. I was listening to a podcast this week as well where they commented that most OS's have been locked down decently tight so virus writers are starting to moved along to holes in third party apps like flash etc. And yes I think we hijacked the thread sufficiently