I think Verizon's network is causing the reboots
- Thread starter Chrisy
- Start date
Hm. If its not the the PRL then what could be the problem? What exactly is up with this new radio? Do we have any developers in the operating room yet?
The more we find out it's not the more it seems as though it's simply the way the phone handles an unstable data connection. While that means it's not strictly Verizon's fault, it has just shown that there are areas of their network that they need to take a look at. If their entire network was as stable as it is here I don't think we would have even noticed this issue.
Sent from my Thunderbolt
Could be that not every person who has 15011 is effected. Just a combo of 15011 and something else, maybe regional.
Oh, I have been paying close attention. I also have extremely in depth knowledge into how the towers communicate with devices. Its my job.
When I say corrupted radio firmware, I did not say it was *just* the Thunderbolt's radio firmware. I also did not mean the firmware was corrupted upon installation. Honestly, considering the amount of power cycling issues I hear about on a wide variety of devices, I suspect it is likely a protocol corruption that has been severely overlooked for a long time now, or a new technology update that does not mesh well with older technology still in use. It is highly unlikely that a Preferred Roaming List would affect device functionality. Firstly almost all LTE phone users should be on identical PRLs. Secondly all a PRL does is give the phone a list of towers, what their connection types are, and whether it is a Verizon tower or not.
Think of it as if your computer's TCP/IP protocol, or a wireless card driver even, caused your computer to crash, not the strength of the connection to a router or modem. The parameters for reboots, however, seem too random to calculate. I have a constant full bars of 4G at home, and have gotten reboots. I have full bars of 3G inside my work building (due to multiple network extenders since the building is a radio nightmare), and have gotten reboots at work. This seems to have no rhyme or reason based upon time of day or day of week, either.
Another baffling issue is that I notice performing a hard reset (pulling the battery and discharging the capacitors) minimizes reboots whereas a factory data reset seems to do nothing also points to an issue with firmware, not software. This I have tested on about 10 different Verizon devices, between basic and smart phones over a period of the last month. The iPhone is about the only device that appears immune, which irks me since Apple is so secretive about everything.
Yet another issue is that people have reboots even connected to WiFi. This would point to likely one source: 1xRTT (2G). Even when connected to WiFi, the 2G connection remains active, but I think I read that someone here had a reboot while on Airplane Mode+WiFi, which means 2G was not active. However, I still do think something in the 2G firmware protocol is not meshing with newer EV-DO (eHRPD) and LTE protocols. If anyone wishes to test this, and can go a period without calls or SMS, change the radio settings to EV-DO Only (which *should* disable 1xRTT connections) and see if reboots still occur.
The only way to confirm or deny the network connection protocol and/or firmware being the suspect is to run on pure Airplane Mode for a full day. This would only help if the test device experienced a consistent multiple reboots per day. Robrecht would make a perfect candidate if he got that test phone from HTC, and if it experiences multiple reboots per day, since his communication would not be affected by having that test device on Airplane Mode for a long period of time.
And just to let everyone know, I and several other associates of mine have been keeping a careful eye on this issue, and testing it intensely. We have been theorizing everything from the eHRPD firmware protocol to possible 2G radio feedback loops (both on device end), but have not had any definitive results in testing. Welcome to the Rubic's Cube of telecommunications.
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PRL: 15008.
Also, it isn't just 4G phones experiencing reboots. I'm going to gather my links again.
Recent Random Reboots on non Thunderbolt Devices
http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-droid-incredible-2/81588-random-reboots.html
http://forum.androidcentral.com/motorola-droid-x2/86310-random-rebooting.html
http://forum.androidcentral.com/motorola-droid-2/66365-d2g-keeps-rebooting.html?highlight=rebooting
http://forum.androidcentral.com/motorola-droid-x2/86310-random-rebooting.html
Random Reboots on BlackBerry Tour
Storm 2 Rebooting twice a day
The reason I first thought it was network related is when non smart phone VZW folks at my moms work are having reboots too. I don't think non smart phone owners post on forums though.
Some days I don't have any reboots at all. Those days I'm usually at home. I have had the reboots while using Google Navigation and always in a certain part of town. I have not paid attention to the exact location. I will today.
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And I'm sure you do it well.
And what's the most common denominator? The Verizon towers that combine old and new technology and protocols.
I don't think it's necessarily a signal strength issue but a handshake issue. Obviously, signal strenghth can be a big part of this, as a low signal will initiate more attempted handshakes. But handshakes take place on a regular basis, regardless of strength of signal, right? (That's a genuine question.) And perhaps your network extenders at work create additional handshake issues.[/quote]
Don't give up looking for the cause. There are no confirmed sightings of gremlins.
This could explain my relatively infrequent problems as I am constantly pulling my batteries to replace them with spares from my wall chargers. But my n=1 doesn't say much. Are there others who cycle their spare batteries frequently but still have more severe reboot problems.
Verizon's contract with Apple does not allow for, even require, sharing of code and engineering design parameters? Surely some people at Verizon have access to this. If so, maybe it's just an issue of corporate priorities.
I had not heard that. Does this occur frequently?
While I admire the intellectual rigor of William of Occam, I don't think there is a single solitary cause of every phone problem ever experienced by anyone anywhere. Again, n=1, may not be related or generalizable.
One time, after I experienced two reboots, one right after the other, I placed a call and it was a very poor quality call. Again, n=1, but interesting.
I'm happy to test any theories on a test phone, but if HTC does indeed send me one, I will follow their instructions, of course. But, again, I do not consider myself a very good test subject because this is not a significant problem for me.
Both on the device end. Both on the device end. But some people at Verizon are also looking at the towers' role in this problem. Maybe they will have more luck.
My pleasure. Two of Chrisy's links were about Moto reboots. Mortiel says the iPhone seems to be immune but does not know why.
Absolutely. That's why I'm thinking of it as some kind of last resort or stopgap measure. It certainly would not be designed to do this frequently and maybe it's not by design at all.
Not waves. Not like us. Personally, I think the ThunderBolt may be particularly prone to this issue because of the need for additional handshakes and transitions with newer tech & protocols insofar as we have 4G and eHRPD 3G on our phones.
It is so infrequent for me that I will tolerate it as long as there is hope that HTC and Verizon can resolve the issue.
All I know is the update caused it. Been my wife and I we have had 7 Thunderbolts. We know gladly have 2 on the old software that work great.
I can go over the extensive reviews/comparisons that I did if you would like, but what it comes down to is the old firmware doesn't reboot and the new firmware does.
I can go over the extensive reviews/comparisons that I did if you would like, but what it comes down to is the old firmware doesn't reboot and the new firmware does.
I agree with robrecht, I'm not saying the handshake theory is the answer to all of the people's problems but I'd be willing to bet it's the answer to at least 75% of the people experiencing the reboot problem.
I mean we have seemed to look at just about every other variable to see if there are any correlations and there are none. The hardware, PRL, in 4G or 3G, etc and there is no silver bullet yet. What we do know is that everyone with a solid 4G signal doesn't seem to have any issues and that when I rarely drop to 3G I don't have any issues either. So again it's not the transition itself it's the constant switching without locking on for an extended period of time.
This could still happen on WiFi. I've noticed that even on WiFi at home my phone will occasionally go to 4G (ie I'm checking out My Verizon app). What we should be asking is if the people who are experiencing the multiple reboots were also the ones with data connection issues prior to the update.
Sent from my Thunderbolt
I mean we have seemed to look at just about every other variable to see if there are any correlations and there are none. The hardware, PRL, in 4G or 3G, etc and there is no silver bullet yet. What we do know is that everyone with a solid 4G signal doesn't seem to have any issues and that when I rarely drop to 3G I don't have any issues either. So again it's not the transition itself it's the constant switching without locking on for an extended period of time.
This could still happen on WiFi. I've noticed that even on WiFi at home my phone will occasionally go to 4G (ie I'm checking out My Verizon app). What we should be asking is if the people who are experiencing the multiple reboots were also the ones with data connection issues prior to the update.
Sent from my Thunderbolt
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I don't think the reboots are simply due to a weak or unstable data connection. If that were the case, I should have seen reboots in Mississippi when I was constantly bouncing between a weak VZW 3G signal and a strong Cellular South signal where 3G was present but I was not allowed to connect to it. Believe me, service was very erratic. I could sit there and watch my phone ping-pong back and forth between the two networks almost constantly. Still, in two days, not a single reboot.
But it may be worth noting that 3G in that area, as well as native coverage, is relatively new. VZW acquired that area from Alltel, and I can remember it being strictly CDMA and not even 1x as recently as Christmas 2008 when I took a VZW work phone over there. Back then, Cellular South was still preferred there, so you'd only switch over to the former Alltel network if you had nothing else to connect to. Now, that network has been upgraded to 3G, and it's the preferred network in the area. What I'm wondering is if, due to its later upgrade to 3G than many areas, if it has different equipment (newer models) at the base stations. Could that account for my lack of reboots while there? In contrast, Tuscaloosa got 3G in the fall of 2006, and I get reboots here.
But it may be worth noting that 3G in that area, as well as native coverage, is relatively new. VZW acquired that area from Alltel, and I can remember it being strictly CDMA and not even 1x as recently as Christmas 2008 when I took a VZW work phone over there. Back then, Cellular South was still preferred there, so you'd only switch over to the former Alltel network if you had nothing else to connect to. Now, that network has been upgraded to 3G, and it's the preferred network in the area. What I'm wondering is if, due to its later upgrade to 3G than many areas, if it has different equipment (newer models) at the base stations. Could that account for my lack of reboots while there? In contrast, Tuscaloosa got 3G in the fall of 2006, and I get reboots here.
Johnly
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Thanks for the detailed information. Good to hear from someone in the loop. Keep us posted of your findings would you?
Johnly
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Thanks Chrisy, but I read this thread through including the links you posted first as well. I have never owned a BB that doesn't reboot. While all my motors have reboots, it is once every 1/2 year or so. I iphones do not have random reboots. I bet firmware.
Interesting. I wonder when Verizon started rolling out their ePHRD-capable 3G network equipment in preparation for 4G. Or, when they upgrade one area with ePHRD in preparation for 4G, do they reuse the old equipment in other areas that don't have any 3G yet? Or, what percentage of the 3G network is ePHRD 3G?
For you and your wife and many people. But so many other people also have the new firmware and either don't have a problem at all or have it very infrequently. So there must be another, additional contributor to the problem, be it phone or network or something else (personally, I don't think it's software, 'though the problem might be exaccerbated by GPS interference).
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Just read this in another thread:
Does anyone else remember this? I wonder if this was referring to a new, intended behavior or was it more likely just referring to the reboot performed during the update procedure?thorthunderblt said:
I think it meant the phone would reboot so the update could install.
Sent from my Thunderbolt
The "handshake" issue you were referring to that would be linked on all the phones rebooting would be whats called a 2G feedback loop. Its where a phone pings a tower (handshakes), and the rejects the "handshake" for a plethora of possible reasons. The handshake is, in rare cases, mirrored back to the phone, creating a feedback loop. This happened on RARE occasions in hand-offs between one tower and another on 2G many years ago.
Phones are constantly pinging for connections, hence why they used that constant pinging in a *science fiction* theory on The Dark Knight. Theoretically with all the cell phones around, one could radar map the entire US using just cell phones.
Regardless, the towers cannot cause the phone to crash unless the phone has faulty programming or hardware the the tower exploits in some way. Does that make sense to anyone?
And for the last time, PRLs are just a list of tower information. Its a reference list for your phone to locate the best tower based upon location and desired connection. They can't cause reboots either.
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