Is it time for 4G phones to forego replaceable batteries?

[vzwuser76]

My point exactly. So why in the world does the iPhone have a bigger battery (albeit slight) than the Bolt? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Sent from my HTC Flyer P512 using Tapatalk

Part of your question was answered in the message you are replying to. Because of the smaller internal components in the iphone (screen, 3G radio) they are able to put a larger battery in a smaller frame. Have you looked at all of the LTE phones being released on Verizon? They are all pretty big. That's not just the 4.3" screen. Look at the Tbolt, Charge, or Revolution. They are all much bigger than the Droid X which has the same screen (and does good to great on battery). It has to do with the LTE chip. The larger screen just compunds the issue.

You are correct that they wouldn't have to have a battery tray with a nonreplaceable battery. But that will probably only net you around .25mm either way. That extra space is not going to gain you an extra 4 hours of use. The slim extended batteries, even if they are OEM and have an additional 300mAh net you an extra hour, maybe two.

That is IMHO the real reason why apple hasn't introduced an LTE phone. I read last year that they are working on battery density (getting more mAh out of the same physical space). I don't think the driving force behind that is to get more power for their 3G phones. It's to be able to power an LTE device with a nonreplaceable battery.

I also agree with what someone said earlier about they don't want a user replaceable battery so they can charge you to replace it or upsell you on a new device. But more than that, if they did make the battery replaceable, then you'd have what all other phones have. Many different manufacturers selling replacement batteries. Apple doesn't like to have non approved parts or accessories going into their devices.

I've had a few ipods in my time and one thing every one of them has had in common. After the initial 12 month warranty period, the battery needed to be replaced. I got the extended warranty on my first one because I was shelling out quite a bit (at the time) for the device. After I had the battery replaced on month 16, when I got my next ipod I put the extended warranty on it. That one had to have the battery replaced on month 15. And such was the case with every other one I have had. I'll agree when the battery is fresh, they get great battery life (firends with iphones/ipods as well) but after awhile they go downhill & need to be replaced. I've never known anyone who hasn't had their battery replaced in an ipod/iphone who had it for any amount of time.

 

[FrankXS]

I've had a few ipods in my time and one thing every one of them has had in common. After the initial 12 month warranty period, the battery needed to be replaced. I got the extended warranty on my first one because I was shelling out quite a bit (at the time) for the device. After I had the battery replaced on month 16, when I got my next ipod I put the extended warranty on it. That one had to have the battery replaced on month 15. And such was the case with every other one I have had. I'll agree when the battery is fresh, they get great battery life (firends with iphones/ipods as well) but after awhile they go downhill & need to be replaced. I've never known anyone who hasn't had their battery replaced in an ipod/iphone who had it for any amount of time.

Add to this that prolly 8 out of 10 people will simply buy a new device when the non-user changeable battery fails. More $ for the manufacturer!

-Frank

 

[Mike_is_Mike]

but there is the extended slim batteries, isnt there a 1700 for the TB that fits in with the stock back? Why wouldnt they put that in there? My guess would be so they can sell you extended batteries and extra stock batteries and make more money off you

Those batteries usually AREN'T what they say they are.

The Seido "1600" is really 1305! The "1700" is probably only 1400 or so -- the same as the OM battery.

 

[Forgetful]

Meh taking options away from the consumer ends up screwing us. There would not be a signifigant increase in capacity having a non replaceable battery. And now you can't add a extended if your lifestyle requires it. I don't know why some people would like a more restricted end product for a minimal gain. Now if we could get a phone powered by a radio isotope like H-3 or one of the heavy ones I'm all ears since the half life is 12 years. But that brings a whole new set of issues from the ignorant public and polititions to morons that cannot dispose of anything properly.

 

[worwig]

It is true.
A replaceable battery takes the additional small connectors and end caps on the LiIon batteries. And replaceable batteries require safety circuits in them to prevent over/undercharge, and over current. With a non-replaeacble battery this can be installed on the existing main circuit board, and maybe be a bit more compact.

But in the end, the space saving is very small. So the amount of added capacity is tiny. For now, I prefer simply carrying a second battery that is replaceable. And fairly cheap.

 

[d1ez3]

but there is the extended slim batteries, isnt there a 1700 for the TB that fits in with the stock back? Why wouldnt they put that in there? My guess would be so they can sell you extended batteries and extra stock batteries and make more money off you

lol, no, the 1700 mah battery doesn't even make 1400.

 

[vzwuser76]

lol, no, the 1700 mah battery doesn't even make 1400.

That was my issue with it on my Tbolt. With my Inc1, the Seidio 1750 got about the same or maybe a little more. But on the Tbolt, the stock battery actually outperformed the Seidio.

Another thing that I forgot to mention in my earlier post is there are other factors besides the LTE on the Tbolt vs. the 3g radio on the iphone. Multitasking. Except for a very few apps, the iphone basically freezes or pauses the apps when in the background. Most of the apps on android continue operating in the background. When I hit my homescreen while playing something like Angry Birds or Stupid Zombies, I can still hear the game over the speaker, meaning it's still running and using battery even though it's not at the foreground. Friends of mine with the iphone don't have this happen, so iOS must suspend the app when in the background. That right there can be a major drain on android if not controlled.

I also agree with the person who said taking away a feature for a minor gain is not worth it. Is anyone happy that Verizon took away annual upgrades or one year contracts because, as they said, it was confusing for the customer with all of the options? If the government did something like that people would be up in arms. But when Verizon does it it's good business.

 

[robrecht]

I don't believe their is a significant space savings by having a non replaceable battery instead of a replaceable battery. ...

This. As far as I can see the size/capacity gain in mAh would be minimal. No real comaprative data has been presented yet so I remain to be convinced. BUT the loss in flexibility and spare battery power of multiple spare batteries is lost when you do not have a user-replacable battery. I typically carry 2 spare batteries with me, one of which is 2750 mAh. The iPhone has to rely upon more bulky and less convenient external batteries to achieve this kind of battery power.

 

[robrecht]

Its 2011... I shouldn't have to lug around extra batteries. In 1990 I expected that... not now.

But power iPhone users (oxymoron?) still need to carry around extra battery power. The built-in battery of iPhone was certainly not enough for me.

 

[TnTexas]

iPhone batteries are easy to replace on your own BTW.

Really? 'Cause I was told you can't change them on your own.

 

[tmacfan4321]

Part of your question was answered in the message you are replying to. Because of the smaller internal components in the iphone (screen, 3G radio) they are able to put a larger battery in a smaller frame. Have you looked at all of the LTE phones being released on Verizon? They are all pretty big. That's not just the 4.3" screen. Look at the Tbolt, Charge, or Revolution. They are all much bigger than the Droid X which has the same screen (and does good to great on battery). It has to do with the LTE chip. The larger screen just compunds the issue.

You are correct that they wouldn't have to have a battery tray with a nonreplaceable battery. But that will probably only net you around .25mm either way. That extra space is not going to gain you an extra 4 hours of use. The slim extended batteries, even if they are OEM and have an additional 300mAh net you an extra hour, maybe two.

That is IMHO the real reason why apple hasn't introduced an LTE phone. I read last year that they are working on battery density (getting more mAh out of the same physical space). I don't think the driving force behind that is to get more power for their 3G phones. It's to be able to power an LTE device with a nonreplaceable battery.

I think that Apple won't release an LTE iPhone this year because of the radio limitations that are in place right now. All three LTE phones on Verizon have two radios that have major power requirements. Apple will not build a phone with two radios. They'll wait until LTE gets put into a radio that also supports EV-DO and HSPA and then put that into the iPhone. They're not going to jeopardize the iPhone's image of being a well-rounded, polished product by putting a separate LTE modem into it.

Non-replaceable or replaceable battery, it doesn't matter. Apple is trying to cut down on power consumption wherever possible. LTE doesn't fit with their objective of keeping battery life in check right now.

 

[FrankXS]

Apple is trying to cut down on power consumption wherever possible. LTE doesn't fit with their objective of keeping battery life in check right now.

Yeah, that's one way to stay "ahead" of the "power curve". Just dont' try to go fast!

-Frank

 

[pheatton]

The problem right now is the lack of development in small powerful batteries. I for one don't really like non user serviceable batteries.

Now in the case of the Thunderbolt I would suggest reading this review from AnandTech. Especially the two pages on the radios and cellular performance. There is a pic of the massive PCB. There is very little room for a larger battery even if it was not replaceable.

 

[boyziggy]

I would never buy a phone without a replaceable battery. Why would you even talk about this? The space saving is so negligible. How much extra battery capacity are you really talking about; maybe 5-10%? Hardly a noticeable performance increase. I carry 2 spare batteries for my Epic 4g that fit nicely inside my cellphone pouch. About once ever 2 weeks I have heavy enough usage that I need to pull out and use one of my spares.

Without a spare battery, we have to use those booster battery packs which are bigger, heavier, clunky and much more expensive than simply buying a spare battery.

I can't see any justification for foregoing the replaceable battery aside from forcing users to upgrade their phones more frequently. That's the only reason the iphone doesn't have a replaceable battery.

 

[Mortiel]

I would like to note that the OEM Thunderbolt battery is 1450 mAh, which is identical in size to the Rezound's 1620 mAh battery. Advances in battery tech are being made as is apparent with that example.

Aside, if you look at the Droid RAZR and the Droid RAZR MAXX... the MAXX has a 3300 mAh battery versus the RAZR's 1850 mAh battery, adding only an additional 2mm of overall thickness. Even the RAZR MAXX has overall smaller dimensions than the Thunderbolt.

Now, taking everything into account, I think that many people here seem to have gotten stuck on imagining if the Thunderbolt had a non-removable battery. I think that is the wrong way to consider the argument:

If you were given the choice between a RAZR MAXX-esque HTC phone (LTE, multi-core processor, 4.3 HD screen, more than likely using HTC's unibody design with a 3000+ mAh non-removable battery), or a Rezound-esque similarly hardwared phone with a removable 1800-ish mAh battery? Both phones would share similar dimensions, with the larger battery only slightly increasing the girth, much like the Droid RAZR MAXX.

That is the way I look at this debate.

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Pro's of non-removable on a new design HTC phone (in other words, do not think of it based on the Thunderbolt's current design):
-Potential for larger battery on a unibody design
-Less potential for malfunction with no antenna-in-the-battery-cover nonsense
-Potential for better protection against minor water exposure (e.g. Droid RAZR nanocoating).

Con's of non-removable battery:
-OS freezes cannot always be cured with button-combo hard resets
-Spare-battery lovers would have to purchase products like the iGo
-Once the phone's recharge cycles are expended, you need a new phone

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Pro's of removable battery:
-As you battery's recharge cycles are expended, or as new tech batteries come out, you have the option of upgrading just your battery
-OS freezes are easily cured
-Spare batteries are cheap compared to a new phone

Con's of removable battery:
-More parts means more things to malfunction... HTC's current trend of the space-saving antenna-in-battery-cover design is passable at best
-No offense to the proficient users here, but in all honesty less parts also means less things for users to accidentally mess up. I have heard so many stories of people upset because they could not activate their Droid Incredible 2, only to discover it was because the battery cover was not on the phone.
-Removable batteries are harder to properly seal in the phone to protect against minor water exposure without excess bulk like the G'zOne Commando.
-The added components and battery fittings in the phone mean that HTC would have to make due with a smaller battery.

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Now, based on that synopsis, and casting aside the Thunderbolt comparisons, where would you all side both if you were HTC and you as the consumer if we were talking about a completely new phone design?

 

[Unobtanium]

Now, based on that synopsis, and casting aside the Thunderbolt comparisons, where would you all side both if you were HTC and you as the consumer if we were talking about a completely new phone design?

I could probably go with the non-removable battery as you describe it above. But I would still want a replaceable SD card. So maybe put a "hard reset" button that mimics a battery pull in the SD card area. OTOH, if the next Casio is a LTE, 4.3 - 4.5 screen "Commando 2" that may be where I'm headed.

 

[recDNA]

Since I am checking out amazon for a replacement battery for my logitech harmony one rechargeable battery (that no longer recharges) and since it was advertised as "never replace batteries again" I think I prefer a battery I can replace.

 

[FrankXS]

That is the way I look at this debate.

The way I look at this debate is, if I were going up into the Rocky Mountains camping for a week, or going into the thick woods in Florida for a week, I would rather have any phone with 5 or 6 changeable batteries than any phone with only the built in battery.

Some may say, how often would you do this. Some people do it a lot. Other people spend a week in the Rocky Mountains on accident 'cuz their cell phone died. Stuff like this happens all the time.

-Frank

 

[Alma]

No. I feel more secure with the ability to replace a drained battery on-the-go.

 

[Wildside]

Replaceable battery.

Due to a recent change in my role at work, I am constantly in meetings. When I get back to my desk after 5 hours of meetings with a battery below 40% or 30% (our building has almost no 4G signal and a very poor 3G signal so battery drain is a real issue) I can't charge it back up to a reasonable level fast enough before I'm off handling something else. Over the past month I have come to appreciate an extra battery and the ability to switch on the fly.

I also like the extended battery when traveling and am unsure of when I'll be able to charge.