Network Optimization: Throttling unlimited data LTE users (October 2014)

[openwheelracing]

Re: Damn you verizon (possible throttling of future LTE for off contract unlimited uber-users)

Verizon response to FCC's throttling concerns: everyone's doing it.

http://mobile.theverge.com/2014/8/4/5968481/verizon-response-to-fcc-throttling-letter

Posted via Android Central App

Here is the problem, Verizon is not everyone. They are the only one who won the coveted 700mhz block which makes up their humongous LTE network. I think they should play by the rules within the deal.

If they now have too many subscribers that need throttling of unlimited data users, then perhaps they should raise price on new customers? But they would never do that would they? They want to pay commission for sales reps to sign up?as many people as they can.

 

[Almeuit]

Re: Damn you verizon (possible throttling of future LTE for off contract unlimited uber-users)

Well we went with Verizon unlimited everything knowing the rules in the 700mhz spectrum. Verizon would not be Verizon today if they didn't get the spectrum and part of the deal was to give customers more freedom. Now Verizon thinks they may have found some loophole in order to single out unlimited data power users and throttle them with ambiguous circumstances.

Let's face it, they make more money from a unlimited data user who only uses 4.7gb than anyone on tier data plan. No subsidized phone just pure profit every month. Of course they don't want to throttle those folks. They want those who actually watch Game of Throne on the road. Those bastards how dare they use wireless data that way, they should only check emails and facebook.

Verizon wants a fight and I am ready. I may lose but I will go down fighting. In the mean time I will still make $370 auto payments every month....wait sounds like I am being screwed here....

Of course they make more from it but... They weren't offering the 700 when they got that spectrum right? So the rules were not applying to unlimited when they got it and yes they're trying to go away from it. As others have said they could just remove it all together but they're at least letting people keep it for now.

I honestly accept the fact that one day none of us will have unlimited on wireless... Just some sooner than others. T-Mobile still does it since that is their hook for now.

Sent from my T-Mobile Note 3 using AC Forums.

 

[openwheelracing]

I am quite sure Verizon was still aggressively signing people up for unlimited after they acquired 700mhz spectrum.

Also, I think we should be getting more data as time goes on and eventually going unlimited for all. It shouldn't be the other way around.

As a tech enthusiast, its difficult for me to see regression instead of progression.

 

[cnotes2019]

Re: Damn you verizon (possible throttling of future LTE for off contract unlimited uber-users)

I am quite sure Verizon was still aggressively signing people up for unlimited after they acquired 700mhz spectrum.

Also, I think we should be getting more data as time goes on and eventually going unlimited for all. It shouldn't be the other way around.

As a tech enthusiast, its difficult for me to see regression instead of progression.

But this way it's progression for the companies and the consumer must limp along.

 

[Mooncatt]

Re: Damn you verizon (possible throttling of future LTE for off contract unlimited uber-users)

I am quite sure Verizon was still aggressively signing people up for unlimited after they acquired 700mhz spectrum.

Also, I think we should be getting more data as time goes on and eventually going unlimited for all. It shouldn't be the other way around.

As a tech enthusiast, its difficult for me to see regression instead of progression.

I thought that too at first, but I think I understand what happened. From what I've gathered, it sounds like the carriers were caught off guard by the explosion of smart devices. When data plans first came out, no one expected society to get hooked it like crack. Capacity wasn't an issue at first, but the demand for data (especially streaming services) drove network use up faster than carriers could increase capacity.

So to get a handle on things, carriers put caps in place. Mobile data was never meant to replace a home ISP, but that's what was happening. Carriers are making progress, but look at how much demand there is and it's still growing. I think gone are the days where you downloaded an app and that was it, and low resolution, short YouTube videos. Now, it seems like every app is communicating with servers online for any number of reasons, there's full shows on YouTube in full HD, and cloud backup/storage abounds. It seems to me that even though the carriers have wised up to the demand, the demand for mobile online access is still growing faster than the carriers can keep up.

I hope we'll see a return to universal unlimited plans for the average Joe, but I think it'll be a long time before we do. Either demand will have to stabilize, or there will have to be a breakthrough in mobile data technology to allow for the capacity. I don't see either of those happening any time soon. We are already seeing higher data plans offered again, but they are really expensive. You can bet any new unlimited plan on a network like Verizon's will be almost stupidly expensive at first, but not without reason.

 

[dpham00]

Re: Damn you verizon (possible throttling of future LTE for off contract unlimited uber-users)

Some clarification on the 700Mhz upper block C spectrum (band 13) that Verizon uses(dates are approximate):
-For 700Mhz Upper block C, the FCC requires open applications (conusmers can download and utilize any app they want) and open devices (consumers can use the devices on any network they want)
-Verizon sued the FCC in September 2007 regarding the open access requirement. Verizon lost an appeal and chose to drop the lawsuit in 2007.
-The 700Mhz auction took place on January 2008.
-Verizon forced unlimited data on all smartphone users starting in November 2008.
-Verizon didn't allow any new unlimited data plans starting in July 2011.
-Verizon stopped allowing upgrades to keep unlimited data in July 2012.

Sent from my LG G Pad 8.3

 

[Almeuit]

Re: Damn you verizon (possible throttling of future LTE for off contract unlimited uber-users)

Some clarification on the 700Mhz upper block C spectrum (band 13) that Verizon uses(dates are approximate):
-For 700Mhz Upper block C, the FCC requires open applications (conusmers can download and utilize any app they want) and open devices (consumers can use the devices on any network they want)
-Verizon sued the FCC in September 2007 regarding the open access requirement. Verizon lost an appeal and chose to drop the lawsuit in 2007.
-The 700Mhz auction took place on January 2008.
-Verizon forced unlimited data on all smartphone users starting in November 2008.
-Verizon didn't allow any new unlimited data plans starting in July 2011.
-Verizon stopped allowing upgrades to keep unlimited data in July 2012.

Sent from my LG G Pad 8.3

So from this Verizon agreed to open apps... All apps usable on the network... Not unlimited data.

Sent from my T-Mobile Note 3 using AC Forums.

 

[dpham00]

So from this Verizon agreed to open apps... All apps usable on the network... Not unlimited data.

Sent from my T-Mobile Note 3 using AC Forums.

There is no unlimited data requirement, however, excess data usage alone shall not be used as justification for throttling. Verizon is of course arguing that network optimization doesn't violate this because it is network management, not a strict throttle like att.

"*27.16*Network access requirements for Block C in the 746-757 and 776-787 MHz bands.

(a)*Applicability.*This section shall apply only to the authorizations for Block C in the 746-757 and 776-787 MHz bands assigned and only if the results of the first auction in which licenses for such authorizations are offered satisfied the applicable reserve price.

(b)*Use of devices and applications.*Licensees offering service on spectrum subject to this section shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice on the licensee's C Block network, except:

(1)*Insofar as such use would not be compliant with published technical standards reasonably necessary for the management or protection of the licensee's network, or

(2)*As required to comply with statute or applicable government regulation.

(c)*Technical standards.*For purposes of paragraph (b)(1) of this section:

(1)*Standards shall include technical requirements reasonably necessary for third parties to access a licensee's network via devices or applications without causing objectionable interference to other spectrum users or jeopardizing network security. The potential for excessive bandwidth demand alone shall not constitute grounds for denying, limiting or restricting access to the network.

(2)*To the extent a licensee relies on standards established by an independent standards-setting body which is open to participation by representatives of service providers, equipment manufacturers, application developers, consumer organizations, and other interested parties, the standards will carry a presumption of reasonableness.

(3)*A licensee shall publish its technical standards, which shall be non-proprietary, no later than the time at which it makes such standards available to any preferred vendors, so that the standards are readily available to customers, equipment manufacturers, application developers, and other parties interested in using or developing products for use on a licensee's networks.

(d)*Access requests.

(1)*Licensees shall establish and publish clear and reasonable procedures for parties to seek approval to use devices or applications on the licensees' networks. A licensee must also provide to potential customers notice of the customers' rights to request the attachment of a device or application to the licensee's network, and notice of the licensee's process for customers to make such requests, including the relevant network criteria.

(2)*If a licensee determines that a request for access would violate its technical standards or regulatory requirements, the licensee shall expeditiously provide a written response to the requester specifying the basis for denying access and providing an opportunity for the requester to modify its request to satisfy the licensee's concerns.

(e)*Handset locking prohibited.*No licensee may disable features on handsets it provides to customers, to the extent such features are compliant with the licensee's standards pursuant to paragraph (b)of this section, nor configure handsets it provides to prohibit use of such handsets on other providers' networks.

(f)*Burden of proof.*Once a complainant sets forth a prima facie case that the C Block licensee has refused to attach a device or application in violation of the requirements adopted in this section, the licensee shall have the burden of proof to demonstrate that it has adopted reasonable network standards and reasonably applied those standards in the complainant's case. Where the licensee bases its network restrictions on industry-wide consensus standards, such restrictions would be presumed reasonable.

"

Sent from my LG G Pad 8.3

 

[HawaiiD]

Well we went with Verizon unlimited everything knowing the rules in the 700mhz spectrum. Verizon would not be Verizon today if they didn't get the spectrum and part of the deal was to give customers more freedom. Now Verizon thinks they may have found some loophole in order to single out unlimited data power users and throttle them with ambiguous circumstances.

Let's face it, they make more money from a unlimited data user who only uses 4.7gb than anyone on tier data plan. No subsidized phone just pure profit every month. Of course they don't want to throttle those folks. They want those who actually watch Game of Throne on the road. Those bastards how dare they use wireless data that way, they should only check emails and facebook.

Verizon wants a fight and I am ready. I may lose but I will go down fighting. In the mean time I will still make $370 auto payments every month....wait sounds like I am being screwed here....

Screwed?

2 years ago big red ceo stated that unlimited data plans are not forever nor was it in the best interest for Verizon.
The writing was on the wall.
Unlimited data will still be there technically. If your worried about being throttled? Manage your data usage.
Keep it under 4.7GB.Use more wifi when possible.
Also, we still don't know what the throttled speeds are like or long it will last (congestion tower) for even if you go over the cap? It may not be that bad?

 

[HawaiiD]

I am quite sure Verizon was still aggressively signing people up for unlimited after they acquired 700mhz spectrum.

Also, I think we should be getting more data as time goes on and eventually going unlimited for all. It shouldn't be the other way around.

As a tech enthusiast, its difficult for me to see regression instead of progression.

I feel like one of the main reasons Verizon is implementing network Optimization? VoLTE is about to launch ending of this year. When VoLTE goes live nationally? Hopefully, it won't put to much burden on the network.

Imo , this is progression

 

[HawaiiD]

There is no unlimited data requirement, however, excess data usage alone shall not be used as justification for throttling. Verizon is of course arguing that network optimization doesn't violate this because it is network management, not a strict throttle like att.

"*27.16*Network access requirements for Block C in the 746-757 and 776-787 MHz bands.

(a)*Applicability.*This section shall apply only to the authorizations for Block C in the 746-757 and 776-787 MHz bands assigned and only if the results of the first auction in which licenses for such authorizations are offered satisfied the applicable reserve price.

(b)*Use of devices and applications.*Licensees offering service on spectrum subject to this section shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice on the licensee's C Block network, except:

(1)*Insofar as such use would not be compliant with published technical standards reasonably necessary for the management or protection of the licensee's network, or

(2)*As required to comply with statute or applicable government regulation.

(c)*Technical standards.*For purposes of paragraph (b)(1) of this section:

(1)*Standards shall include technical requirements reasonably necessary for third parties to access a licensee's network via devices or applications without causing objectionable interference to other spectrum users or jeopardizing network security. The potential for excessive bandwidth demand alone shall not constitute grounds for denying, limiting or restricting access to the network.

(2)*To the extent a licensee relies on standards established by an independent standards-setting body which is open to participation by representatives of service providers, equipment manufacturers, application developers, consumer organizations, and other interested parties, the standards will carry a presumption of reasonableness.

(3)*A licensee shall publish its technical standards, which shall be non-proprietary, no later than the time at which it makes such standards available to any preferred vendors, so that the standards are readily available to customers, equipment manufacturers, application developers, and other parties interested in using or developing products for use on a licensee's networks.

(d)*Access requests.

(1)*Licensees shall establish and publish clear and reasonable procedures for parties to seek approval to use devices or applications on the licensees' networks. A licensee must also provide to potential customers notice of the customers' rights to request the attachment of a device or application to the licensee's network, and notice of the licensee's process for customers to make such requests, including the relevant network criteria.

(2)*If a licensee determines that a request for access would violate its technical standards or regulatory requirements, the licensee shall expeditiously provide a written response to the requester specifying the basis for denying access and providing an opportunity for the requester to modify its request to satisfy the licensee's concerns.

(e)*Handset locking prohibited.*No licensee may disable features on handsets it provides to customers, to the extent such features are compliant with the licensee's standards pursuant to paragraph (b)of this section, nor configure handsets it provides to prohibit use of such handsets on other providers' networks.

(f)*Burden of proof.*Once a complainant sets forth a prima facie case that the C Block licensee has refused to attach a device or application in violation of the requirements adopted in this section, the licensee shall have the burden of proof to demonstrate that it has adopted reasonable network standards and reasonably applied those standards in the complainant's case. Where the licensee bases its network restrictions on industry-wide consensus standards, such restrictions would be presumed reasonable.

"

Sent from my LG G Pad 8.3

With reading through this... In my interpretation.
seems the "limiting and restricting" pertains to denying certain apps or devices 100% access to the Internet.
To which I don't think Verizon does.
Or is there an app that I don't know of Verizon restricts access to the net?

Also, there is that network management provision that allows Verizon to essentially "throttle" their speeds if they see fit. And I say that loosely

 

[dpham00]

With reading through this... In my interpretation.
seems the "limiting and restricting" pertains to denying certain apps or devices 100% access to the Internet.
To which I don't think Verizon does.
Or is there an app that I don't know of Verizon restricts access to the net?

Also, there is that network management provision that allows Verizon to essentially "throttle" their speeds if they see fit. And I say that loosely

Verizon did restrict some hotspot apps in the past, but they were fined for that and stopped that practice.

It is a gray area. Throttling reduces speed which might be considered restricting an app. But even then, Verizon is not using excessive usage alone when restricting, they are using network load. My guess is legally, Verizon is in the right. But I am not a lawyer nor do I have any experience in the legal field


Sent from my LG G Pad 8.3

 

[tmj143]

Re: Damn you verizon (possible throttling of future LTE for off contract unlimited uber-users)

Has anyone experienced restricted speeds yet for streaming with hotspot apps? I have foxfi installed, and am definitely in their top data user category, and as of yesterday I couldn't stream Hulu/Netflix/Amazon Prime while connected to the hotspot. I've had no problems before, and doing a speed test gives nothing suspicious regarding upload/download speeds. The Netflix app oddly seems to work on my phone, though I'm not sure how much of that is a quality difference issue.

 

[dpham00]

Re: Damn you verizon (possible throttling of future LTE for off contract unlimited uber-users)

Has anyone experienced restricted speeds yet for streaming with hotspot apps? I have foxfi installed, and am definitely in their top data user category, and as of yesterday I couldn't stream Hulu/Netflix/Amazon Prime while connected to the hotspot. I've had no problems before, and doing a speed test gives nothing suspicious regarding upload/download speeds. The Netflix app oddly seems to work on my phone, though I'm not sure how much of that is a quality difference issue.

I use the stock hotspot app and stream Netflix all the time. No issues.

Sent from my Verizon Samsung Galaxy Note 3

 

[anon24860]

Re: Damn you verizon (possible throttling of future LTE for off contract unlimited uber-users)

I streamed Rhapsody all day yesterday without a hiccup. Not quite the same thing though.

 

[Srambo217]

Re: Damn you verizon (possible throttling of future LTE for off contract unlimited uber-users)

I imagine they'll slowly trickle it in, especially with all the flak they've caught over the entire thing. All of us with UDPs will be crushed after 4gbs in about a month or so, mark my words!

Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app

 

[R01k]

Re: LTE Throttling Starts October 2014

In fact, the FCC recently questioned Verizon about this.

Probably luring people into getting rid of legacy unlimited plans is being much harder than they thought.

 

[Ry]

Re: LTE Throttling Starts October 2014

I still think the wrong questions are being asked.

In order to be throttled (unnaturally), all of these criteria must be met:

• fall within the top 5 percent of data users on our network
• have fulfilled their minimum contractual commitment
• are on unlimited plans using a 4G LTE device.
• when connecting to a cell site when it is experiencing heavy demand.

If a cell site is experiencing heavy demand, everyone using it will be slower. How much slower would a user who (1) falls within the top 5 percent of data users and (2) is month to month (3) on an unlimited data plan using an LTE device be than a user who doesn't meet those three criteria on the same cell site?

Congestion is congestion. Cell sites do not have unlimited capacity.

People should be asking:

• How do I know if I'm in the top 5 percent of data users?
• How much slower would I be on a cell site experiencing heavy demand vs. a customer who doesn't meet all of the criteria? Is there a percentage?

 

[anon24860]

As to the last question, leave it a to Verizon to find a way for it to be 100% of all of those users for 90% of all towers.

Yeah, I'm cynical.

 

[anon24860]

This throttling of us unlimited folks is just unacceptable. :chuckle:

Yeah, I know, Sunday morning and all that...