OnePlus CEO thinks of the OP3 as an A4, not an A8

[dpham00]

I find it interesting that Carl Pei (OP CEO) thinks of the OP3 as an A4, then I can infer that the S7 Edge would be the A8?

https://www.reddit.com/r/oneplus/comments/4oyi6o/anandtechs_oneplus_3_review/d4iu1bk

His exact wording:

"I think we're talking about different things when we say "cut corners". You are speaking to it in absolute terms, where I come from a product market fit perspective. To explain with a car anecdote, you would define an Audi A4 as having cut corners vs. an Audi A8, where in my book they would both be great products for their respective users. Sorry for the confusion."

 

[JonnyT]

I don't think he's comparing them exactly like-for-like. His metaphor was aimed more at trying to describe his perspective on a product vs. the critics' view - where every phone should just be the most premium thing possible, as opposed to tailoring it to a market or demographic.

In the case of the OnePlus3 vs S7e, this doesn't really fit exactly with this metaphor as the OnePlus3 and S7e would cannibalise each others' sales more so than an Audi A4 or an Audi A8 (for example, I'd never need something as big as an Audi A8, but I could easily spend more money on an A4 with all the options ticked or opt for an RS4 than I would spend on an A8, purely because the A4 is what I would want more, but it would be silly for someone to laugh at my RS4 and say "Haha, too cheap for an A8?")

 

[Aquila]

This is a poor position for him to argue from. Cutting corners, intentionally, to provide a great experience at a great value is a GOOD STRATEGY. Just admit that's what you did. Stop lying about "Never Settle" and whatnot, you absolutely did compromise all over the map and many mistakes were made when doing so - if we're going to compare this to the flagships, it's going to lose. Because of those mistakes and compromises. If we're going to compare the experience of the phone vs the flagships and factor in the price, for VALUE - then it's got a very compelling argument. So make that point. Stop lying about it being just as good at everything, it simply isn't.

 

[Aquila]

The A4 DOES make compromises compared to the A8. Those are things that can be measured. But the A8 also makes compromises compared to the A4. Compromises are fine. Pretending an A4 is exactly the same thing as an A8 is stupid, false and insulting - even if you think the ownership experience of both is positive. Are they equally positive? Heck no; there's a reason one is priced double the other.

 

[fchowd0311]

Both the A4 and A8 compromise. Both are front heavy understeer machines... That shouldn't be the case when buying a 40+ grand 'premium' car.

Don't mind my mini rant. I just REALLY don't like Audis. They make the most boring to drive expensive cars on the market.

 

[JonnyT]

This is a poor position for him to argue from. Cutting corners, intentionally, to provide a great experience at a great value is a GOOD STRATEGY. Just admit that's what you did. Stop lying about "Never Settle" and whatnot, you absolutely did compromise all over the map and many mistakes were made when doing so - if we're going to compare this to the flagships, it's going to lose. Because of those mistakes and compromises. If we're going to compare the experience of the phone vs the flagships and factor in the price, for VALUE - then it's got a very compelling argument. So make that point. Stop lying about it being just as good at everything, it simply isn't.

Em, there are loads of reviews comparing this phone to flagships... not sure if there are compromises "all over the map" either. Y'know, cause the build quality is ace, it's got significantly better quick charging than - yep, flagships. Super quick and confines most of the heat to the charger? Yes please, I kinda like my phone battery not being ruined

Maybe it's the spec. Hmm, Snapdragon and 820 w/6GB of RAM and 64GB storage standard. OK, people are one way or the other about the screen. Fine. But "compromises all over the map" is both misleading and an unfair comment. If Samsung/Apple had said that about OnePlus, they'd have been slated for being sore losers. Also, I like that I can get a Dual SIM phone in the UK without having to order it on eBay cause it's only available in other markets.

 

[Aquila]

Em, there are loads of reviews comparing this phone to flagships... not sure if there are compromises "all over the map" either. Y'know, cause the build quality is ace, it's got significantly better quick charging than - yep, flagships. Super quick and confines most of the heat to the charger? Yes please, I kinda like my phone battery not being ruined

Maybe it's the spec. Hmm, Snapdragon and 820 w/6GB of RAM and 64GB storage standard. OK, people are one way or the other about the screen. Fine. But "compromises all over the map" is both misleading and an unfair comment. If Samsung/Apple had said that about OnePlus, they'd have been slated for being sore losers. Also, I like that I can get a Dual SIM phone in the UK without having to order it on eBay cause it's only available in other markets.

The context of his A4 & A8 comment I'd referring to differences in the SoC that make it inferior to the 820 SoCs found in almost every other phone this year. The display is also poor, though after release they did fix the software aspect of it. It has 6 GB RAM but memory management issues and lots of unused RAM, etc, etc.

It isn't a bad phone, but it also is not a flagship, even if it is compared to flagship devices. It's a midrange device that looks great on paper until you start digging in and then it looks merely good and price is where it's argument comes from. It's far from the best device available, but one of many good values.

Neither Samsung not Apple lose to this device, so they can't be sore losers by demonstrating their devices are better in various ways.

 

[JonnyT]

Fair enough, but we've had plenty of Exynos/Snapdragon SoCs interchange with each other in the Samsung line up even on the same phones but both as flagship as each other, which doesn't sit quite right in my mind.

The display, as I've said, has had reviews either way. It's not "poor". It is poor from some people's perspectives and some people completely disagree. You've stated it like it's factual when in fact that is your opinion. I'm not quite so black and white with it - I dislike the use of a Pentile display, but I do think the resolution is more than sufficient and I'd trade it tomorrow on my previous s6 edge for better battery life.

For a phone that's "not a flagship" it has an awful lot of people moving away from "flagships" it seems, so maybe we should stop calling any phone a flagship since a flagship phone is no longer a flagship for quite a few people?

You sound quite annoyed at OnePlus in your previous posts, but I haven't really heard anything convincing and your descriptions are very much "yeah people say it's good but it's rubbish!" But I'm not hearing evidence, only lots of opinions stated as fact. Look, if you hate the phone that's fine, there's never going to be a phone that everyone loves.

He used an imperfect metaphor and I've explained what I felt he meant by it - he didn't say they're the same at all, he doesn't even allude to this. He says they are designed to fit a different type of user than each other, I thought this was quite clear.

 

[Aquila]

I don't hate the phone at all. I think it's quite good. I just don't agree it's in the same league as flagships. I'm not annoyed by the device, I'm annoyed by the people that pretend things about the device. To me there is a HUGE world of difference between saying, "this device is fine" or "it's good enough for me" or "it's a great value" and the people pretending that it's the best device available. It may be the best for any individual use case, based on the components, pricing, etc. But that is irrelevant to what should be an objective statement of, "this is the best".

Things like an inferior panel, shortcuts on the SoC, lacking carrier support for over half of the US population, etc. take it out of that running. That doesn't mean it can't be really, really good for people who buy it or that they can't enjoy it, it just means it's not -- objectively -- the best.

Never Settle is a catch phrase that I believe is false and that phrease annoys me, because there are all sorts of compromises on this device. Again, compromises aren't inherently bad, but pretending they don't exist is bad. All devices compromise.

For a phone that's "not a flagship" it has an awful lot of people moving away from "flagships" it seems, so maybe we should stop calling any phone a flagship since a flagship phone is no longer a flagship for quite a few people?

This is speaking to the value proposition, not the objective merits of the device relative to the top of the line devices. That's the point I've been consistently making. That it's a great value, but not the top of the line device.

He used an imperfect metaphor and I've explained what I felt he meant by it - he didn't say they're the same at all, he doesn't even allude to this. He says they are designed to fit a different type of user than each other, I thought this was quite clear.

Yes, the metaphor sucks and your interpretation is what he meant by it. Some people want the best in class device; some people want the best value. OP is playing to the value crowd and creating some overlap.

The display is not poor or good based on perspectives, it is factually an inferior panel to those used in other amoled devices of that size. They have fixed the software aspect of it. This is not my opinion vs your opinion vs the opinion of reviewers, they took a shortcut here.

Again... good device, not a great device. Great price, makes it a great value. I've never said the device sucks and I don't think it does. I think it is less best than the true leaders. That's not hating it, that's being realistic.

So if you're making a "good enough" argument, that's TOTALLY fine and that is definitely the argument that Carl was making. But he's making that argument and pretending that it's compatible with being a flagship and that it's compatible with "Never Settle". It isn't compatible with either, so I would ask him to use a better marketing strategy, such as focusing on the value and on the areas where it does win, while not pretending that the areas that it fails at aren't issues. It has a lot of strengths that can be spoken to.

 

[tpmbb10]

Out of curiosity, what shortcuts were taken on the SoC? Are not all SD 820s created equal? (Not being sarcastic - I just haven't been up to date on actual processors since Pentiums )

 

[Aquila]

Out of curiosity, what shortcuts were taken on the SoC? Are not all SD 820s created equal? (Not being sarcastic - I just haven't been up to date on actual processors since Pentiums )

The specific examples listed int he source link were applicable to the integrated modem on the 820 and many of the RF capabilities being missing or weaker than they would be out of the box.

From the source:

You don't really expect us to believe that the corners weren't cut when ordering X12 modem with:
Category 6 instead of Cat 9;
Carrier Aggregation mysteriously not listed on the US variant;
256QAM on the Downlink capability missing;
64QAM on the Uplink missing;
Uplink Carrier Aggregation missing;
4x4 MIMO not happening;
Wi-Fi Calling nowhere to be found;
VoLTE on Verizon/AT&T missing in action, T-Mobile not officially confirmed;
EVS capability completely neutered
Overall subpar RF performance of a device that suppose to constantly rely on the cellular network connectivity.
So I salute your business strategy, I am personally very excited to see a small startup coming into the marketplace and trying to disrupt, but your quoted statement is a complete turn off.

To which Carl replied, "I think we're talking about different things when we say "cut corners". You are speaking to it in absolute terms, where I come from a product market fit perspective. To explain with a car anecdote, you would define an Audi A4 as having cut corners vs. an Audi A8, where in my book they would both be great products for their respective users. Sorry for the confusion."

So Carl is aware that there are things that were compromised, but his position is that it won't negatively impact the user experience for most consumers. Which is probably completely true.

 

[tpmbb10]

Got it. Thanks, that helps. I don't even know what half of that stuff is but I don't doubt it's important to a lot of people. The value proposition is always an important aspect of a purchase, but it's also important to distinguish between that and being "top of the line". Cheers.