Samsung implication Engadget: NO GPS FIX UPCOMING?

Aero

Well-known member
Jun 21, 2010
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wow from samsung to Engadget re GPS:
[Update: We just spoke with Samsung, who told us that Google is now requiring that the "use wireless networks" setting for location-based services be turned off by default in Android devices -- in other words, no AGPS unless you manually enable it. Sure enough, we went into Settings, found that it was disabled on the Epic, turned it on, and we were good to go. No GPS bug!]

Wow. Without prejudice to user fixes this means samsung devices will out of the box, and permanently for most users by seriously worse GPS. I say so becasue this is not a new requirement by google and all other makers are ignoring the requirement.

I can set it properly on mine and expect even a rom to come up where fix survives hard reset but most users will never have agps on by default.

WOW

waiting for another tweet from the samsung engineer who claimed a fix is upcoming since apparently samsung is now saying the fix is "forbidden"!
 
wow from samsung to Engadget re GPS:


Wow. Without prejudice to user fixes this means samsung devices will out of the box, and permanently for most users by seriously worse GPS. I say so becasue this is not a new requirement by google and all other makers are ignoring the requirement.

I can set it properly on mine and expect even a rom to come up where fix survives hard reset but most users will never have agps on by default.

WOW

waiting for another tweet from the samsung engineer who claimed a fix is upcoming since apparently samsung is now saying the fix is "forbidden"!

I'm not so sure those are related things. It seems like it was never an issue with the aGPS with CDMA phones for Samsung (my hunch here is the aGPS is broke with caching due to poor data scripting).
 
Your misinterpreting what samsung and engadget said. They're still working on a fix in general, but aGPS works on the epic, it just must be turned on because android requires it to be turned off by default.
 
Your misinterpreting what samsung and engadget said. They're still working on a fix in general, but aGPS works on the epic, it just must be turned on because android requires it to be turned off by default.
Nope I follwo this very closely. I am not at all misinterpreting it and the other handset makers are breaking this rule?

I am not extremely concerned but I can see you are misinterpreting spin for a valld statement. The samsung statements are inherently contradictory.

If samsung is going to have google keep its aGPS off by default, TTFF (time to first fix) is going to be lower across the board for Galaxy owners compared to other handsets with aGPS.

whenever full data set is expired (aka factory start), that is 15 minutes to TTF without aGPS on.

Whenever almanac is even partially expired (cold start) that is 3 to 4 minutes to TTF without aGPS on.

Whenever short lived ephemeris is out that is 30 seconds to two minutes extra for TTFF without aGPS enabled

Yes the data is cached, but it also expires. That's a good deal of the purpose of aGPS

Again if aGPS is set to off by default we can expect over 90% of users not to go into settings to tick it on and thereby very often get GP S fixes much slower than competing smartphones.
 
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You speak Greek, Aero.
I used to be fluent in ancient and modern.

My point is I am not condemning or even criticizing the device til I do my own testing which I know how to do, and objectively and comparatively.

But I find the statement on edgadget to be worthy of derision, and bogus and I know I am not alone.

If Samung is going to leave aGPS off by default, they are going to do something other makers, including of Adoid do not do and they will have a permanent lower performance on GPS, specifically poorer average TTFF (time to First fix) whcih will be a user loss in real world conditions.

There is also the issue of endgadget ignoring the question of what they are working on for a fix?
 
They said they are working on optimizing GPS, not enabling aGPS. The statements are not contradictory.

Sent From My Samsung Intercept
 
Ok, I understand what you are saying, but that is a stetch IMO. Besides, its not broke if you can turn it on :P

Yes, for the general public, they might have to google it and/or take it to a Sprint store to get it turned on. I don't care about the masses :D

However, the device I used... locked on super quick, about 15 seconds or so. It's not broke on the CDMA device.

Before we start a panic here... let's do the testing on the device and not assume it's doomed. We don't need another 800W flame war. Nor do we want it, I'll shut them ALL down.
 
Ok, I understand what you are saying, but that is a stetch IMO. Besides, its not broke if you can turn it on :P

Yes, for the general public, they might have to google it and/or take it to a Sprint store to get it turned on. I don't care about the masses :D

However, the device I used... locked on super quick, about 15 seconds or so. It's not broke on the CDMA device.

Before we start a panic here... let's do the testing on the device and not assume it's doomed. We don't need another 800W flame war. Nor do we want it, I'll shut them ALL down.
I am not panicking or starting a panic. I am noting a dissonance. As far a as promised fix, that is tweet. tweets are great in corporate spin because they are deniable.

the phrase rumor is thrown around about statements made by Sprint and samsung to engadet ootehr issues, yet somehow a tweet is the same as an announcement of corporate policy? It isn't.

REcall during the 800w issue within days of launch top tier Tech support explicitly told several long time Treo central users a fix was being promulgate for 800w issues. I do not think that was a conspiracy to keep people inside of 30 days from returning it, but conspiracies aside, the affect was that, and the fact is that nothing was done and on the week of the projected fix two months later, what was given in its stead was a new "faq" rewriting the terminology. there was no flame war, on that, just all the people who knew what the term standalone GPS mean and one single person (who had worked for Sprint) who didn't and blindly promoted Palm's unique, new and self interested definition.

And Keith you will note I stated I had enabled agps on a friends captivate and it worked fine.

I just think the level of concern might be a bit higher given Samsungs strange statement that they are disabling something other handset makers are not when it comes it an issue that has some kind of subjective but widely reported problem.

From this I gt two conclusion.
1) You and I will be able to have GPS working fine. The huge mass of people who purchase this will never go into the settings,and even if they do

2) all phones shave issues, many much worse than this even if this is worse case scenario (and I doubt it is). But this phone will be particularly hard to swap with a competing model since for all practical purposes alternative 4g stock does not exist.

I don't think your "shut it down" comment is warranted in the least. I know for a fact that the mods, (and owners of) of the central group thought my discussion and work on 80ow was completely sober.
 
In case y'all missed it, it's Engadget reporting more specifically on the problem. Including what was disabled by default and what the real problem is.

Aero, they spoke English in that article, but since you speak Greek, I assume you know what you're talking about. Do you think this Engadget article is accurate? Is a software fix even possible?
 
OK...I understand that there are GPS issues but I'm not sure which programs are really affected?

The only one I really care about and rely upon on a day to day basis is SPRINT NAV.....therefore my only concern is if this program will work?
 
I don't think your "shut it down" comment is warranted in the least. I know for a fact that the mods, (and owners of) of the central group thought my discussion and work on 80ow was completely sober.

It was a warning to all, don't take it personally, but I'll tell you this now, most (mods and admins) were NOT happy with how the thread devolved the Treo community.

Still, I don't see this being anywhere near the same thing at all. So no worries...
 
In case y'all missed it, it's Engadget reporting more specifically on the problem. Including what was disabled by default and what the real problem is.

Aero, they spoke English in that article, but since you speak Greek, I assume you know what you're talking about. Do you think this Engadget article is accurate? Is a software fix even possible?

I wrote directly to the editor after the samsung "clarification". I bet many people did. At least they are now breaking it down more.

I think the first issue is still more than fuzzy:
Samsung tells us that it's a new Google mandate that Android devices be shipped with the "use wireless networks" option disabled, which means you're relying on traditional GPS alone to determine your location.....get our location with 1,000 to 1,500-meter accuracy
This seems to me that with that issue they are saying they are only referring to Provider location, or triangulation from land-based cellular towers that gives you very rough fixes (about 1000m to 100m) being default off. (why?: data charges on some networks and battery life)
But they are not at all discussing any affect (if any) this may have on aGPS,which is about something different: giving the GPS satellite initial acquisition a boost by having the network tell the smart phone where to look for the satellites, and some other information about the satellites that should be in view, and then having the device calculate position from the satellites alone (aGPS).

on the second problem, this, if accurate, is in the mid range of troubling.
All Galaxy S models seem to be having trouble turning GPS reception into coordinates, even when the phone is able to see four or more satellites in view (four is the minimum you normally need for a precise, three-dimensional lock).
On the very good side the implication is that it is not a SNR (signal to noise) problem. That is good since a hardware issue affecting reception of satellite data per se would be nearly irreparable..
On the bad said the implication is that is also not cache or agps issue either which would be the easiest fix.
Also on the bad side is that the answer makes little sense*.

I don't want to speculate too much because only some of the statement maybe sammy, and/or may have passed though a PR/legal person, and some maybe extrapolation from engadget.

I think the second problem is more likely some kind of conflict in the way Sammy is prioritizing what localization (network or agps/gps)the device will be attempting. Since a coarse estimate of position is avaible from tower triangulation, their api, or adaption of an android api or code maybe written in such as way Galaxy doesn't try the actual GPS often, ore insistently enough. In other words some accuracy value set to low may be being is being satisfied (or waiting to be satisfied not triggering gps at all) by triangulation when it is not really accurate as the phoens actual GPS can do. [Why would such a accuracy value be set to low? Battery life for one. What you want google maps to show when you are looking for local information (banks, theaters etc) is not as demanding as what you wan t a driving navigation program to utilize. But true GPS may draw 500ma or more and you can see that would mean -2 hours batter life.]

The way android is supposed to work is that most LBA's (applications that need location) are written to access GPS as a preference, and then provider location as a second choice if no gps fix comes within a certain short a certain timeout. It looks like this is being played with for battery reasons. Even with null GPS value initially , LBAs are supposed to then poll the device for actual GPS fix at an interval regardless (hence you might start with an appropriate location and then over a short period of time get a real fix).

overall it is disconcerting that the problem exists, but at least engadget is getting a response from Sammy and sammy is clarifying that they are working on a fix for item #2 is actually quite heartening..

*It seems unlikely in the extreme that very simple, ubiquitous tasks of calculating position is any problem at all since literally hundreds of millions of devices do it, the mechanism are decades old, and all the methods are simple and wold not be affected by aGPS issues, driver conflicts, or even software bugs. the simplest part of building any GPS receiver is calculating position once sats have been acquired.

simplified explanation location mechanism that can deliver approximate or accurate fixes to application:
  • Triangulation/"Provider location": This is on all phones, dumb and smart. this uses only the handset and carrier towers (and computation of location is usually done by computer at the carrier). It give fixes from several kilometers to 100 meters typically. On dumbphones this exists so emergency 911 services can locate the phone, and the actual location may not be avalable to the user of the phone. On smartphones the rough estimate can be useful to the user and applications since it a) works indoors or b) can help in situations where less than 4 sats are visible to the device and c) usually consumes way less battery than the GPS.
  • Standalone GPS: the system most portable and removable car GPS use. This involves is the device and the satellites in orbit only. Most smartphones have this and aGPS
  • aGPS: here the carrier sends data to the smartphone that help the smartphone locate the satellites faster. The smartphone will then use the satellites to calculate its position.


The best smartphone have all three (and good drivers and APIs to select which one in what case). My treo Pro does.
Triangulation as discussed is mandated by law, and is good where gps is not available or for extended periods without external power.
Standalone GPS is often slower initial position fix (TTFF) than aGPS, but standalone works on 95% of the globe that is outdoors,meaning say overseas or in extreme rural areas, which is why the best smartphones try aGPS first and fall back to standalone.
 
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It was a warning to all, don't take it personally, but I'll tell you this now, most (mods and admins) were NOT happy with how the thread devolved the Treo community.
Incorrect. I have notes from from the owner of this and the treocentral site, Dieter (still on my treo central inbox) and from the chief 800w forum mod, Berd, saying otherwise.
The issue did not devolve, it got trolled. Scores of people were on one side stating the problem and lack of fix, and one person claimed Palm was correct, and was only abetted by drive-bys of a handful of people not addressing the issue, but saying things like "GPS, who cares, that is what dedicated device are for" or "get a map"). Every objective person knew a) the 800w specifically advertised standalone (working absent a carrier signal), b) within weeks of launch and discovery of the problem told multiple inquires from treo central forums that they were working on a fix; c) Palm never fixed it and instead three months after launch Palm promulgated a "faq" on GPS reversing the meaning of an accepted term which has a very specific defintion, and had been used one and only one specific way in all relevant Patent applications, technical white papers, sprints own developer site, trade publication on GPS -- and palms own advertising material which they removed from their site shortly after the problem came up.
 
I asked the following question on the Sprint EPIC Facebook page and their response is as follows:

"With the Endgaget report of GPS issues and the Samsung response, I have but one question.....will SPRINTNAV work on a daily basis? I use it all of the time and if not fully functional from the get go, it would likely change my phone purchase."

The response which to me indicates that the issue still exists.............

"There is an update coming in September which will fix this issue.
http://www.everythingandroid.org/samsung-testing-galaxy-s-software-update/2010/08/13/"


I THINK it's an official Sprint page and response, but I'm not positive?
 
I asked the following question on the Sprint EPIC Facebook page and their response is as follows:

"There is an update coming in September which will fix this issue.
http://www.everythingandroid.org/samsung-testing-galaxy-s-software-update/2010/08/13/"


I THINK it's an official Sprint page and response, but I'm not positive?

No. The first is a facebook page handled by a third party PR firm and the second is just one of a myriad of android blogs unrelated to samsung or Sprint repeating a tweet.

The tweet comes from Carla Saavedra, who is I am sure a nice person but who is not with technical side of any ting at Samsung but is two years our o communications school (as in mass communicaitons/JO/PR, not wireless communications!), and who has a low level position in the PR department of samsung for a few months. Her job is spin and she has no executive or managerial position. She gets paid to tweet and noting she says is official.
 
From most of the reviews I've read so far this week, they say that they had success with the Epic's GPS when tested. The Epic may be more optimized atm than the first 3 Galaxy S phones that are out right now...
 
From most of the reviews I've read so far this week, they say that they had success with the Epic's GPS when tested. The Epic may be more optimized atm than the first 3 Galaxy S phones that are out right now...

Just spent one hour side by side comparing with nib Evo, nib Epic, Touch Pro 2, Touch pro and Treo Pro. The Epic absolutely has the worst GPS, in every initial metric, acquisition time (TTFF), nubmer of sats, and resolution accuracy confidence