$799 for the Xoom? Ouch!

[Menno]

OK, you can claim to know for sure. But I can't, and I don't have faith in people who claim they know for sure.

We all know a rumor and can guess based on previous practices, but we don't know for sure.

It's not rocket science to understand this.

We KNOW verizon's contract policies FOR SURE. They're well published and accessible. We also know, for sure, that Verizon offers EVERY device in their lineup for a no-commitment "Month to Month" price, and that you can sign up for contracted plans without signing a contract by choosing to pay retail for the phone.

So we KNOW FOR SURE that if a customer purchases a device for FULL RETAIL and doesn't sign a contract, they can cancel whatever plan they sign up for without worrying about early termination fees.

What we don't know:
-Retail cost of the Xoom
-Monthly plans for the Xoom
-If the Xoom "requires" a monthly plan to walk out the door with one

But none of those three options matters for the question at hand (will there be a termination fee if I cancel my Verizon month to month plan).

How is this still up in the air? Do you think that Verizon's going to change their month to month policy for ALL of their devices? Furthermore, how in the world could they require an ETF on a device they didn't subsidize and you didn't sign a contract for? The answer is that you CAN'T. Not only would it be publicity suicide for Verizon to make this change, but they would quickly be sued and have charges brought against them by the FCC. The can make it difficult for you to get this device without a contract, but they can't make it impossible.

We're not speculating here. We're going on well known facts about the company and their policies and avoiding any areas that are still unknown.

 

[cparker5]

We KNOW verizon's contract policies FOR SURE. They're well published and accessible. We also know, for sure, that Verizon offers EVERY device in their lineup for a no-commitment "Month to Month" price, and that you can sign up for contracted plans without signing a contract by choosing to pay retail for the phone.

So we KNOW FOR SURE that if a customer purchases a device for FULL RETAIL and doesn't sign a contract, they can cancel whatever plan they sign up for without worrying about early termination fees.

What we don't know:
-Retail cost of the Xoom
-Monthly plans for the Xoom
-If the Xoom "requires" a monthly plan to walk out the door with one

But none of those three options matters for the question at hand (will there be a termination fee if I cancel my Verizon month to month plan).

How is this still up in the air? Do you think that Verizon's going to change their month to month policy for ALL of their devices? Furthermore, how in the world could they require an ETF on a device they didn't subsidize and you didn't sign a contract for? The answer is that you CAN'T. Not only would it be publicity suicide for Verizon to make this change, but they would quickly be sued and have charges brought against them by the FCC. The can make it difficult for you to get this device without a contract, but they can't make it impossible.

We're not speculating here. We're going on well known facts about the company and their policies and avoiding any areas that are still unknown.

No we don't know it for sure. It might be very very very very likely based upong currently published data about other devices. But we do not know it for sure.

I am basically saying, from everything we know right now there won't be a penalty. But all I did was put in a footnote, that we don't know for sure, because until we are told specifically about this device, we don't.

 

[Menno]

No we don't know it for sure. It might be very very very very likely based upong currently published data about other devices. But we do not know it for sure.

I am basically saying, from everything we know right now there won't be a penalty. But all I did was put in a footnote, that we don't know for sure, because until we are told specifically about this device, we don't.

Yes we DO know for sure.

There is NO OTHER WAY TO HANDLE MONTH TO MONTH AGREEMENTS. Period. You CANNOT charge a termination fee if there is no contract. It's ILLEGAL.

So yes, we know for sure. They're not going to get sued/fined because they want to stick it to an extreme minority of their users (those who buy off contract).

Again, there is NO way for them to charge a cancellation fee if there is no contract.

What you're saying is akin to best buy charging you a fine if you don't use a TV as much as you did when you first bought it.

If you believe otherwise, please tell us how it would be possible for them to charge you.

 

[pcoble]

OK, you can claim to know for sure. But I can't, and I don't have faith in people who claim they know for sure.

We all know a rumor and can guess based on previous practices, but we don't know for sure.

It's not rocket science to understand this.

I see what you're saying and I agree that, until there is some real proof, these rumors should not be completely trusted. But I think the point made above is (or should have been) not really about the rumor, it is about the nature of the rumored contract, which the BB ad says is month-to-month. Carriers can charge an early termination fee for a 1 or 2 year contract because you are, well, terminating the contract early. With a month-to-month, that is not the case. Once you have paid for the full month, you have performed your obligations under the contract, even if you cancel it on day 1. The carrier is still under their obligation to provide service for the month you paid for, and then the contract is over. In theory, they could force you to cancel on the last day of the month and charge a fee if you cancel before that, but there are so many problems with that, none of which are worth getting into here, that Verizon's lawyers would be stupid to let that happen. Bottom line, month-to-month contracts don't have termination fees if you pay for the whole last month you use it. Before anyone tries to pick this apart with some anecdote about how their aunt had to pay a fee on a month-to-month rental of something completely unrelated, please realize that contracts are just agreements between two people and can have almost any terms they want in there. But as someone who writes and argues over these contracts all the time, that's why we can be almost positive that there will be no ETF on the rumored month-to-month contract.

 

[qnet]

I just hope it will be easy to upgrade and, activate 4G LTE when it becomes available.

 

[pcoble]

So we KNOW FOR SURE that if a customer purchases a device for FULL RETAIL and doesn't sign a contract, they can cancel whatever plan they sign up for without worrying about early termination fees.

True. But month-to-month doesn't necessarily mean no contract, it just means that the contract's term is one month.

Furthermore, how in the world could they require an ETF on a device they didn't subsidize and you didn't sign a contract for? The answer is that you CAN'T. Not only would it be publicity suicide for Verizon to make this change, but they would quickly be sued and have charges brought against them by the FCC. The can make it difficult for you to get this device without a contract, but they can't make it impossible.

Not (completely) true. The FCC has no jurisdiction to enforce contract disputes just because a wireless carrier is involved. Verizon may get sued, but it would win unless it was somehow misleading. As long as there is full disclosure, there is no liability because no one is forcing you to buy their product. Totally agree that it would be publicity suicide though.

 

[c-lord]

own the $500 Ipad.. What more do I need?? I have a android phone I can tether it to. The thing loads any apps in less than 1-2 seconds and the screen is awesome. The graphics are great for all the games. Its jailbroken so I don’t have to pay for anything if i chose to do that plus its give me more control over the device. I use it for email, web, apps and streaming netflix. So I don’t need more than 16gb because i will never have that many apps each app is like 10-20mb some games can get a up to 250mb. I don’t put movies or music on it.. You make it sound like you will be able to do so much more on the xoom but what are you really going to do with it I would like to know? Apps, email and internet? when you can do the same thing for $320 less...Who cares if not high def it’s a 9in screen do you really think you’re going to be able to tell the difference I don’t think so. That’s like telling me you can see the difference between 720p and 1080p on 30in screen…

 

[Menno]

True. But month-to-month doesn't necessarily mean no contract, it just means that the contract's term is one month.



Not (completely) true. The FCC has no jurisdiction to enforce contract disputes just because a wireless carrier is involved. Verizon may get sued, but it would win unless it was somehow misleading. As long as there is full disclosure, there is no liability because no one is forcing you to buy their product. Totally agree that it would be publicity suicide though.

Verizon's month to month is no contract. You can cancel at any time during the month, however you will be billed for the full month. This isn't a "fee" though. There is absolutely NO reason for Verizon to change this policy.

The FCC WILL take them to court if they try this, if they have jurisdiction or not. That's the new FCC.

You can't penalize someone for not using your service when they already paid for the product.

 

[Menno]

own the $500 Ipad.. What more do I need?? I have a android phone I can tether it to. The thing loads any apps in less than 1-2 seconds and the screen is awesome. The graphics are great for all the games. Its jailbroken so I don?t have to pay for anything if i chose to do that plus its give me more control over the device. I use it for email, web, apps and streaming netflix. So I don?t need more than 16gb because i will never have that many apps each app is like 10-20mb some games can get a up to 250mb. I don?t put movies or music on it.. You make it sound like you will be able to do so much more on the xoom but what are you really going to do with it I would like to know? Apps, email and internet? when you can do the same thing for $320 less...Who cares if not high def it?s a 9in screen do you really think you?re going to be able to tell the difference I don?t think so. That?s like telling me you can see the difference between 720p and 1080p on 30in screen?

your ipad is Wifi only, and 16GB. this one is 3g/4g capable and 32GB (with an expansion slot for 32GB more)

If you already have an ipad there is less of a reason for you to get this, but that also means you're not the primary market. Motorola/Verizon know they won't get many people who will stop using a $500 piece of equipment after less than a year.

And you'll be able to tell the difference. Put a 320x480 screen next to a 480x800. Make them both 3.5 inches. You can easily tell the difference.

 

[pcoble]

Verizon's month to month is no contract. You can cancel at any time during the month, however you will be billed for the full month. This isn't a "fee" though. There is absolutely NO reason for Verizon to change this policy.

The FCC WILL take them to court if they try this, if they have jurisdiction or not. That's the new FCC.

You can't penalize someone for not using your service when they already paid for the product.

This is a basic misconception of contract law. It is a contract whether you know it or not. If it weren't a contract, you wouldn't be obligated to pay and they wouldn't be obligated to continue your service for the rest of the month. Not all contracts require a signature.

No FCC would be able to take them to court on this. You may be thinking of the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) which can protect consumers for deceptive or unfair contracts, but that is a very different administrative body.

 

[RConcheiro#AC]

your ipad is Wifi only, and 16GB. this one is 3g/4g capable and 32GB (with an expansion slot for 32GB more)

If you already have an ipad there is less of a reason for you to get this, but that also means you're not the primary market. Motorola/Verizon know they won't get many people who will stop using a $500 piece of equipment after less than a year.

And you'll be able to tell the difference. Put a 320x480 screen next to a 480x800. Make them both 3.5 inches. You can easily tell the difference.

menno you seem to know a lot, so I thanked you for you for your information. Do you know, or think of anythinrg about the one month minimum and then they'll release WiFi? So all I have to do is purchase the Xoom, pay for one month and then after the month cancel it, and my Xoom will still be available to do WiFi?

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge menno, also thank you cparker for your input!

 

[Menno]

menno you seem to know a lot, so I thanked you for you for your information. Do you know, or think of anythinrg about the one month minimum and then they'll release WiFi? So all I have to do is purchase the Xoom, pay for one month and then after the month cancel it, and my Xoom will still be available to do WiFi?

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge menno, also thank you cparker for your input!

That part is still technically up in the air. What I personally think it is is a rule set down by best buy to prevent someone from buying it at their store and then activating it later (thus they lose the commission on the sale).

They (and most other retailers) had a similar rule about the Galaxy Tab. You could technically activate it for wifi without a month plan, but stores wouldn't let you out of the door with the product without signing up through them.

But if it "Requires" it or not, after that first month (or any time later) you can cancel the plan and still use it over wifi.

 

[Menno]

This is a basic misconception of contract law. It is a contract whether you know it or not. If it weren't a contract, you wouldn't be obligated to pay and they wouldn't be obligated to continue your service for the rest of the month. Not all contracts require a signature.

No FCC would be able to take them to court on this. You may be thinking of the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) which can protect consumers for deceptive or unfair contracts, but that is a very different administrative body.

All Verizon post paid plans are billed a month in advance. That is why they have to continue offering service through the end of the billing cycle. You already paid for it on your previous bill.

 

[qnet]

own the $500 Ipad.. What more do I need?? I have a android phone I can tether it to. The thing loads any apps in less than 1-2 seconds and the screen is awesome. The graphics are great for all the games. Its jailbroken so I don?t have to pay for anything if i chose to do that plus its give me more control over the device. I use it for email, web, apps and streaming netflix. So I don?t need more than 16gb because i will never have that many apps each app is like 10-20mb some games can get a up to 250mb. I don?t put movies or music on it.. You make it sound like you will be able to do so much more on the xoom but what are you really going to do with it I would like to know? Apps, email and internet? when you can do the same thing for $320 less...Who cares if not high def it?s a 9in screen do you really think you?re going to be able to tell the difference I don?t think so. That?s like telling me you can see the difference between 720p and 1080p on 30in screen?

It just depends on what you want to use it for. I also have a Ipad, the 16GB Wi-fi/3G model. Other than games, I do the same things you do and a little more. I like to put music, videos and movies on it so 16GB is not enough for me. I wish I had got the 64GB version. Now I have a chance to get the Xoom and have more storage and have a new, fun device. If I had got a bigger capacity Ipad then the decision would be much harder.

 

[cparker5]

Yes we DO know for sure.

There is NO OTHER WAY TO HANDLE MONTH TO MONTH AGREEMENTS. Period. You CANNOT charge a termination fee if there is no contract. It's ILLEGAL.

You are assuming that they will offer it with only a month to month agreement and not require a plan outright. From what we gather, that is the case, but for all we know Best Buy may require a 2 year plan to purchase the device. We just don't know.

And it is possible to create a month to month plan that when you cancel you can not access WiFi.

There are many things they can do, but probably won't/

Again we just don't know for sure.

Which was my statement. We have a pretty goo idea, just don't know for sure.

 

[pcoble]

All Verizon post paid plans are billed a month in advance. That is why they have to continue offering service through the end of the billing cycle. You already paid for it on your previous bill.

That is exactly right, but misses the point. They are contractually obligated to provide the service because you made the payment. You may think that that isn't a contract, but you would be wrong. You can continue to argue if you would like, but everything I've said is spot on and, besides, I was only trying to explain why month-to-month services do not have early termination fees, whether or not you understand the underlying law.

This whole discussion has digressed from the point though. I think $800 is way to high of a price point for the Xoom, though I'm not convinced that's what it will actually go on sale for. All the leaks have some pretty strange anomalies (spelling, unusual MAP dates, etc.), so I'm holding out to hear official pricing. That being said, I'm definitely getting one because I've been waiting for this device since last summer and Honeycomb looks amazing. I really don't have much problem with the signing up to activate WiFi because I intend to activate 3G/4G right away anyway, though it is kind of a punk move. I just wish/hope for Motorola to set a lower price so I don't have to hear the constant jabs from the Apple committed.

 

[ckeegan003]

You are assuming that they will offer it with only a month to month agreement and not require a plan outright. From what we gather, that is the case, but for all we know Best Buy may require a 2 year plan to purchase the device. We just don't know.

And it is possible to create a month to month plan that when you cancel you can not access WiFi.

Verizon markets their tablet plans as "no obligation, month-to-month data plans, starting at $20 for 1GB". So yes, we do know.

Your second paragraph is just ridiculous, as it's impossible. What, are they going to send some magical signal shutting down the Wi-Fi radio? Maybe if you cancel the data plan, they will come to your house, and take the radio!

 

[Menno]

You are assuming that they will offer it with only a month to month agreement and not require a plan outright. From what we gather, that is the case, but for all we know Best Buy may require a 2 year plan to purchase the device. We just don't know.

And it is possible to create a month to month plan that when you cancel you can not access WiFi.

There are many things they can do, but probably won't/

Again we just don't know for sure.

Which was my statement. We have a pretty goo idea, just don't know for sure.

it doesn't matter what best buy requires or doesn't.

This thing WILL be available for month to month agreements, even if you can't get it that way from best buy. Best buy isn't verizon, they don't set verizon's policies and they've even ignored verizon's policies on several occasions. Their opinions don't matter, their policies don't matter.

And no, it's not possible to create a plan that requires cellular activation for wifi to work. This device is running STOCK android. Google's not going to develop a UI for tablets that requires a cellphone agreement to be functional. Basic android (which is built for smartphones) doesn't even require this.

 

[Menno]

That is exactly right, but misses the point. They are contractually obligated to provide the service because you made the payment. You may think that that isn't a contract, but you would be wrong. You can continue to argue if you would like, but everything I've said is spot on and, besides, I was only trying to explain why month-to-month services do not have early termination fees, whether or not you understand the underlying law.

This whole discussion has digressed from the point though. I think $800 is way to high of a price point for the Xoom, though I'm not convinced that's what it will actually go on sale for. All the leaks have some pretty strange anomalies (spelling, unusual MAP dates, etc.), so I'm holding out to hear official pricing. That being said, I'm definitely getting one because I've been waiting for this device since last summer and Honeycomb looks amazing. I really don't have much problem with the signing up to activate WiFi because I intend to activate 3G/4G right away anyway, though it is kind of a punk move. I just wish/hope for Motorola to set a lower price so I don't have to hear the constant jabs from the Apple committed.

I was arguing that Verizon can't charge an ETF on month to month agreements. I've been saying that since post one.

It's cparker5 who's implying they could.

 

[RConcheiro#AC]

That part is still technically up in the air. What I personally think it is is a rule set down by best buy to prevent someone from buying it at their store and then activating it later (thus they lose the commission on the sale).

They (and most other retailers) had a similar rule about the Galaxy Tab. You could technically activate it for wifi without a month plan, but stores wouldn't let you out of the door with the product without signing up through them.

But if it "Requires" it or not, after that first month (or any time later) you can cancel the plan and still use it over wifi.

Thanks again. Do you think this product is worth the $800? I have a gut feeling that it is.


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