Camera lens 'flare' issue

[puch96]

Hello all,
I've been reading reviews and one of the issues reported is the camera lens flare issue in certain lighting conditions.
I was wondering if this issue is more prominent on any particular color pixel? Just wondering for the users out there if the issue is more prominent on white rear glass or black rear glass variants.
Thanks.

 

[SlappyMcgee]

It is not specific to any color Pixel. It is just the camera in general.


Check out the AC Article "Google Pixel Lens flare: What it is and how to avoid it"

Google Pixel lens flare: What it is, and how to avoid it | Android Central

 

[Go0gle]

I just came back from a trip where I took more than 1,000 photos with my Pixel (black), and not a single photo displays the flare (which is not an issue by the way, it's a product of the lens design and occurs in all lenses when presented with a strong light source inside or just outside the frame).

 

[wordfool]

I just came back from a trip where I took more than 1,000 photos with my Pixel (black), and not a single photo displays the flare (which is not an issue by the way, it's a product of the lens design and occurs in all lenses when presented with a strong light source inside or just outside the frame).

Good to hear, and I suspect there is some slight lens-to-lens variation in the Pixels (all within manufacturing tolerances) that mean some people have cameras more prone to flare than others.

To clarify your statement slightly, it's a product of the lens design and occurs in all lenses *to some degree* when presented with strong light sources at *certain* angles depending on lens design. High quality camera lenses are usually designed to minimize flare, either by element arrangement or internal coatings (or both). From what I can tell looking at images, the Pixel lens design is worse than average at preventing flare even among phones. Compared to my Canon L lenses it's not just in a different league... it's in a different universe altogether

 

[Go0gle]

Good to hear, and I suspect there is some slight lens-to-lens variation in the Pixels (all within manufacturing tolerances) that mean some people have cameras more prone to flare than others.

To clarify your statement slightly, it's a product of the lens design and occurs in all lenses *to some degree* when presented with strong light sources at *certain* angles depending on lens design. High quality camera lenses are usually designed to minimize flare, either by element arrangement or internal coatings (or both). From what I can tell looking at images, the Pixel lens design is worse than average at preventing flare even among phones. Compared to my Canon L lenses it's not just in a different league... it's in a different universe altogether

I'm sure there is slight lens-to-lens variation. It's the same in the "real" camera world there is as well. A multi-element lens is very difficult to make exactly the same every single time. Many modern lenses these days have over 20 elements.

You're right it occurs to some degree in all lenses, I am all too aware of the details - I am a professional photographer/teacher by trade. I gave up trying to explain to people here that it's not a Pixel-specific issue but rather a matter of lens design that occurs to varying degrees in virtually every lens, including $2,000 DSLR lenses designed specifically to reduce flare, yet it's still extremely easy to coax a flare out of them. When their ~$30 1/2.3" smarptphone camera module produces flare in an extreme scenarios that $2000+ lenses can't even handle, it's not an 'issue'.

I haven't found my Pixel to be worse than average, in fact I would say it's more resistant to flare than other smartphones I've used. User experience is bound to vary though.

 

[planoman]

I'm sure there is slight lens-to-lens variation. It's the same in the "real" camera world there is as well. A multi-element lens is very difficult to make exactly the same every single time. Many modern lenses these days have over 20 elements.

You're right it occurs to some degree in all lenses, I am all too aware of the details - I am a professional photographer/teacher by trade. I gave up trying to explain to people here that it's not a Pixel-specific issue but rather a matter of lens design that occurs to varying degrees in virtually every lens, including $2,000 DSLR lenses designed specifically to reduce flare, yet it's still extremely easy to coax a flare out of them. When their ~$30 1/2.3" smarptphone camera module produces flare in an extreme scenarios that $2000+ lenses can't even handle, it's not an 'issue'.

I haven't found my Pixel to be worse than average, in fact I would say it's more resistant to flare than other smartphones I've used. User experience is bound to vary though.

Well you may know how to minimize it as a professional photographer.

When I got my black pixel xl I went outside on a sunny day and took about 8 pictures of my house and street while the sun was directly overhead. I also took the same pictures with my S7 Edge.

6 of the 8 on the pixel showed some flare. Some minimal but several shots were ruined. On the S7 edge, 2 of 8 shots showed some flair and one was major and one was so minor it is hard to see.

In my opinion there is no doubt that the pixel xl exhibits this issue more than many devices. The question is can you learn how to adjust and minimize it to enjoy the rest of the phone to its maximum.

 

[Go0gle]

Well you may know how to minimize it as a professional photographer.

When I got my black pixel xl I went outside on a sunny day and took about 8 pictures of my house and street while the sun was directly overhead. I also took the same pictures with my S7 Edge.

6 of the 8 on the pixel showed some flare. Some minimal but several shots were ruined. On the S7 edge, 2 of 8 shots showed some flair and one was major and one was so minor it is hard to see.

In my opinion there is no doubt that the pixel xl exhibits this issue more than many devices. The question is can you learn how to adjust and minimize it to enjoy the rest of the phone to its maximum.

The only way you can compare the pixel to the GS7 is with *EXACTLY* the same shot and fixed position with EXACTLY the same bright light source position. Even moving the phone ever so slightly in your hand can be the difference between flare and no flare because it's caused by internal reflections in the lens structure. I am not doubting your experiences, but in order to make any kind of photographic/flare comparison to another phone, the comparison position and field of view has to be literally identical. You can actually see the flare on the screen if it's going to happen, so you can adjust it slightly and it should disappear if you happen to be in such a scenario. Taking roughly the same picture with multiple devices is a totally irrelevant comparison, unfortunately. If you could rig up a fixed shooting position with a tripod or similar, and have the field of view absolutely identical (I am not sure if their focal lengths are the same), it would be possible to compare flare characteristics between the two devices in that specific scenario only.

A lens hood is the first defense against lens flare on a 'real' camera, but obviously that doesn't really apply in the smartphone world. To avoid it, avoid shooting directly into bright light sources, or with bright light sources barely outside the frame. The bright light source can also be a strong reflection in the image, light bulb, etc. - not just the sun.

At the end of the day, smartphone optics aren't that advanced and the Pixel being as sharp as it is impresses me. I am not surprised at all that people can coax flare out of it relatively easy, which makes it no different really than any other smartphone at least in my experience. I have a GS6 and GS7 as well, I can get flare out of both very easily.

 

[SteelGator]

The only way you can compare the pixel to the GS7 is with *EXACTLY* the same shot and fixed position with EXACTLY the same bright light source position. Even moving the phone ever so slightly in your hand can be the difference between flare and no flare because it's caused by internal reflections in the lens structure. I am not doubting your experiences, but in order to make any kind of photographic/flare comparison to another phone, the comparison position and field of view has to be literally identical. You can actually see the flare on the screen if it's going to happen, so you can adjust it slightly and it should disappear if you happen to be in such a scenario. Taking roughly the same picture with multiple devices is a totally irrelevant comparison, unfortunately. If you could rig up a fixed shooting position with a tripod or similar, and have the field of view absolutely identical (I am not sure if their focal lengths are the same), it would be possible to compare flare characteristics between the two devices in that specific scenario only.

A lens hood is the first defense against lens flare on a 'real' camera, but obviously that doesn't really apply in the smartphone world. To avoid it, avoid shooting directly into bright light sources, or with bright light sources barely outside the frame. The bright light source can also be a strong reflection in the image, light bulb, etc. - not just the sun.

At the end of the day, smartphone optics aren't that advanced and the Pixel being as sharp as it is impresses me. I am not surprised at all that people can coax flare out of it relatively easy, which makes it no different really than any other smartphone at least in my experience. I have a GS6 and GS7 as well, I can get flare out of both very easily.

I understand all that you are saying, but getting the exact same angle and shot is not necessary for this type of test. The question is how often do you get flare when you raise your camera to get a shot. The comparison you quoted supports what most are coming to believe, the Pixel camera is more susceptible to flare than other cameras. Sure there are more scientific approaches, but we have the data needed at this point.

That said, this is still the best camera I have ever used on a phone. I have only had one situation that the flare was not fixable by reframing the shot slightly.

Interestingly, I think there flare is at least partly related to the 2.5 D glass. I was outside the other evening and I could see light getting trapped under the glass. Almost looked like water the way it moved. This was particularly evident near the camera. This type of internal reflection could easily result in flare.

 

[planoman]

The only way you can compare the pixel to the GS7 is with *EXACTLY* the same shot and fixed position with EXACTLY the same bright light source position. Even moving the phone ever so slightly in your hand can be the difference between flare and no flare because it's caused by internal reflections in the lens structure. I am not doubting your experiences, but in order to make any kind of photographic/flare comparison to another phone, the comparison position and field of view has to be literally identical. You can actually see the flare on the screen if it's going to happen, so you can adjust it slightly and it should disappear if you happen to be in such a scenario. Taking roughly the same picture with multiple devices is a totally irrelevant comparison, unfortunately. If you could rig up a fixed shooting position with a tripod or similar, and have the field of view absolutely identical (I am not sure if their focal lengths are the same), it would be possible to compare flare characteristics between the two devices in that specific scenario only.

A lens hood is the first defense against lens flare on a 'real' camera, but obviously that doesn't really apply in the smartphone world. To avoid it, avoid shooting directly into bright light sources, or with bright light sources barely outside the frame. The bright light source can also be a strong reflection in the image, light bulb, etc. - not just the sun.

At the end of the day, smartphone optics aren't that advanced and the Pixel being as sharp as it is impresses me. I am not surprised at all that people can coax flare out of it relatively easy, which makes it no different really than any other smartphone at least in my experience. I have a GS6 and GS7 as well, I can get flare out of both very easily.

Maybe it is not scientific, but it is good enough for me. Look, I paid for the pixel xl and I like the pixel xl but to act like or try to explain away that the pixel xl does not have more lens flare when compared to other flagships is not credible. You sound like Steve Jobs when he told us "you're holding it wrong" or "other phones do it too". There are ways to minimize it as you suggest but to dismiss it is silly IMO. Going to my mom's for Thanksgiving and gonna take a lot of pictures. Taking my current daily driver, pixel xl AND my Galaxy S7 Edge...

 

[Go0gle]

I understand all that you are saying, but getting the exact same angle and shot is not necessary for this type of test. The question is how often do you get flare when you raise your camera to get a shot. The comparison you quoted supports what most are coming to believe, the Pixel camera is more susceptible to flare than other cameras. Sure there are more scientific approaches, but we have the data needed at this point.

I respectfully disagree. The test is useless unless it is identical, especially in the world of photography where such precision is mandatory for any meaningful result. The only data we have is unreliable at best, based on people's completely random experiences and tests with a huge number of uncontrolled variables. Otherwise there is no way to tell with a high degree of certainty that it isn't just the way you happen to be holding the phone or whatever else (the tiniest change in angle can be flare vs no flare). I totally realize most people will never go to that much effort, but objective and reliable flare comparisons cannot be made otherwise. It would be something like testing vehicles on a race track with wildly different driver skill levels in every car, and then coming to a conclusion which is the fastest car - maybe not the best example but you get the idea.

Maybe it is not scientific, but it is good enough for me. Look, I paid for the pixel xl and I like the pixel xl but to act like or try to explain away that the pixel xl does not have more lens flare when compared to other flagships is not credible. You sound like Steve Jobs when he told us "you're holding it wrong" or "other phones do it too". There are ways to minimize it as you suggest but to dismiss it is silly IMO. Going to my mom's for Thanksgiving and gonna take a lot of pictures. Taking my current daily driver, pixel xl AND my Galaxy S7 Edge...

If it's good enough for you that's fine, who am I to say otherwise, but you aren't basing your decision off of objective information without conducting a comparison in the manner described. I can get flare out of my S6 and S7 equally as easily as I can the Pixel, no modern smartphone is particularly resistant to it, and most very expensive camera lenses aren't particularly resistant to it either when given challenging lighting conditions.

I agree 100% that users need to be aware of scenarios that are likely to cause flare and possibly adjust their angles/shots/expectations accordingly, but the part I think a lot of people miss is that is true for every smartphone (and camera) not just the Pixel. The Pixel being more prone to flare than other flagships is not something I would agree on a personal/subjective level after taking thousands of photos in a variety of environments, including those likely to cause flare issues.

I think we can all agree that in the majority of scenarios, flare is not a significant problem on any smartphone. The Pixel camera is the best I have ever used on a smartphone, no question.

 

[Amele]

I respectfully disagree. The test is useless unless it is identical, especially in the world of photography where such precision is mandatory for any meaningful result. The only data we have is unreliable at best, based on people's completely random experiences and tests with a huge number of uncontrolled variables. Otherwise there is no way to tell with a high degree of certainty that it isn't just the way you happen to be holding the phone or whatever else (the tiniest change in angle can be flare vs no flare). I totally realize most people will never go to that much effort, but objective and reliable flare comparisons cannot be made otherwise. It would be something like testing vehicles on a race track with wildly different driver skill levels in every car, and then coming to a conclusion which is the fastest car - maybe not the best example but you get the idea.



If it's good enough for you that's fine, who am I to say otherwise, but you aren't basing your decision off of objective information without conducting a comparison in the manner described. I can get flare out of my S6 and S7 equally as easily as I can the Pixel, no modern smartphone is particularly resistant to it, and most very expensive camera lenses aren't particularly resistant to it either when given challenging lighting conditions.

I agree 100% that users need to be aware of scenarios that are likely to cause flare and possibly adjust their angles/shots/expectations accordingly, but the part I think a lot of people miss is that is true for every smartphone (and camera) not just the Pixel. The Pixel being more prone to flare than other flagships is not something I would agree on a personal/subjective level after taking thousands of photos in a variety of environments, including those likely to cause flare issues.

I think we can all agree that in the majority of scenarios, flare is not a significant problem on any smartphone. The Pixel camera is the best I have ever used on a smartphone, no question.

I respectfully disagree. It takes lousy lowlight shots and there is quite a bit of blur on most videos. I know some of that could be user error, but I look at the pix I took on the Note 7 and even on the Lg G3 on my computer and the Pixel Xl is as good on a lot of shots but not all and worse on several.
EIS on video does not replace OIS particularly not on stills, and the focus seems dependent on perfect conditions, which in daily life one rarely gets. It's a good camera. It could be better.

 

[Go0gle]

I respectfully disagree. It takes lousy lowlight shots and there is quite a bit of blur on most videos. I know some of that could be user error, but I look at the pix I took on the Note 7 and even on the Lg G3 on my computer and the Pixel Xl is as good on a lot of shots but not all and worse on several.
EIS on video does not replace OIS particularly not on stills, and the focus seems dependent on perfect conditions, which in daily life one rarely gets. It's a good camera. It could be better.

Some of your comments sound like maybe you have a defective unit. I am not having any of those experiences with inconsistent AF or poor low light shots (Make sure HDR+ mode is enabled in low light). You may want to look into it further and possibly get an RMA.

A big reason the Pixel XL does so good in the low light department is it actually merges multiple exposures. This not only reduces camera shake but also noise. Noise in a high ISO/low light image occurs randomly, and therefore merging multiple frames results in a single image with very little noise. It also can't work miracles though. The sensor is 1/2.3" which is standard on high end smartphones (Except the iPhone which uses a much smaller one) but extremely small in the grand scheme of things. It simply cannot gather much light, which is why tricks are used like exposure merging, to get much better than normal ISO performance out of such a tiny sensor.

If your videos are showing "quite a bit of blur" that sounds very much like you are using the incorrect frame rate for the subject matter. For fast action, try using 1080P/60fps. Remember that each frame of a video is basically just a picture. 30fps is going to blur motion a lot more than 60fps. With 30fps, each frame is exposed for 1/30 where with 60fps each frame is exposed for 1/60sec. With twice the exposure time, there is more opportunity for motion to create blur. Something like that is likely not the phone's fault but just a setting.

If you're interested, here is a very detailed write up about the technology in the Pixel's sensor and why it is unique:
https://www.xda-developers.com/sony...of-the-google-pixels-sensor-and-its-features/

Also see this review from a company that reviews lenses and imaging sensors which specifically praises its image quality and auto focus performance in extremely dim lighting along with other controlled testing (best smartphone camera they have tested to date):
https://www.dxomark.com/Mobiles/Pixel-smartphone-camera-review-At-the-top

I realize what you are actually experiencing is all that matters, which is why I suggest maybe you investigate your complaints further and possibly get a RMA.