HTC One (M8) camera discussion

[ugxvibe]

http://www.photographyblog.com/arti...alist_symon_whitehorn_on_the_new_htc_one_m8/2

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[nj1266]

What baffles me is why didn't HTC use a 1.6-1.8 micron pixel instead of the ultra large 2.0 micron and then add more pixels, say 6 pixels instead of the 4 pixels. That would improve taking pictures in bright daylight conditions and keep some of the advantages of taking pictures in low light situations. I think that would have been a much better solution that keeping the lens the same and adding a gimmicky second sensor for depth of field.


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[roflwaffleton]

Interview: HTC’s Imaging Specialist Symon Whitehorn on the new HTC One (M8) - Page 2 | PhotographyBLOG

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Nice read. Thanks for the post.

 

[madlaw1071]

What baffles me is why didn't HTC use a 1.6-1.8 micron pixel instead of the ultra large 2.0 micron and then add more pixels, say 6 pixels instead of the 4 pixels. That would improve taking pictures in bright daylight conditions and keep some of the advantages of taking pictures in low light situations. I think that would have been a much better solution that keeping the lens the same and adding a gimmicky second sensor for depth of field.


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Simply put, they couldn't afford it or compete with Samsung and apple for the components. It was cheaper to add the additional sensor than to rework the ultrapixel main shooter.

 

[Skyway]

Simply put, they couldn't afford it or compete with Samsung and apple for the components. It was cheaper to add the additional sensor than to rework the ultrapixel main shooter.

And you know this how?

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[B0WIE]

And you know this how?

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Some people refuse to acknowledge the reason HTC when with the lower MP count, even when they're specifically been educated by other members as to the benefits in light capture. It would be foolish to think they were pinching the budget by using 3 cameras, especially when the self-shooter is a decadent 5mp. This cam is 2 years in the making and I'm glad they had the vision to see it through. Unfortunately, the public's knowledge of digital photography is limited to thinking that a MP rating dictates quality, so this one was doomed to criticism from the gate. Some people are camped out in this section, spreading misinformation, with no actual interest in purchasing the phone.

 

[Lynx]

I get tired of the camera snobs telling me megapixels done matter and I must be stupid if I can't figure it out. It does matter. My Note 3 out performs my wife's HTC One almost every time in picture quality. My htc one x took better pictures than the One did. HTC went backwards with the camera. Also you can take amazing pictures with a phone. I have printed out numerous pictures that look incredible so please stop with the snobbery....it gets old. Having said that this is a great phone but the camera makes it a no go for me.

Megapixels do seem to matter in the real world....

You sir have absolutely no knowledge of photography OR megapixels. I posted this in another topic but let me enlighten you on some facts vs myths of megapixels ok?

FACTS:
- a 3mp camera has 2,048 pixels horizontally... a 14mp camera has 4,500.
- You can print any size print with a 5/6mp camera. Why? Because the larger the print the further you will stand from it to view it.
- To make any obvious improvement you need to at least double the LINEAR resolution which is achieved by at least Quadrupling the total megapixel count
- Small difference in mp count say 3mp-6mp or 5mp-8mp, those differences are negligable because pixel counts are a square function.
- To piggyback on the above fact: doubling the MP count only increases the real, linear resolution by 40%.... making it hardly noticeable.

 

[madlaw1071]

And you know this how?

Posted via Android Central App

From a reliable source.

AnandTech | The HTC One (M8) Review

 

[madlaw1071]

Some people refuse to acknowledge the reason HTC when with the lower MP count, even when they're specifically been educated by other members as to the benefits in light capture. It would be foolish to think they were pinching the budget by using 3 cameras, especially when the self-shooter is a decadent 5mp. This cam is 2 years in the making and I'm glad they had the vision to see it through. Unfortunately, the public's knowledge of digital photography is limited to thinking that a MP rating dictates quality, so this one was doomed to criticism from the gate. Some people are camped out in this section, spreading misinformation, with no actual interest in purchasing the phone.

AnandTech | The HTC One (M8) Review

Read for yourself.

 

[madlaw1071]

Money quote from link posted above:

The story of last year’s One revolved around HTC’s decision to use a larger format 4MP camera sensor instead of moving to a higher megapixel sensor with smaller pixels. It was a polarizing tradeoff, but one that was somewhat validated by Apple with its choice of maintaining resolution but increasing pixel/sensor size with the 5s. The most obvious fix for those who had issues with the lack of spatial resolution with last year’s One would be to go to a higher resolution sensor, without going as far as Samsung and LG. Unfortunately, without the buying power of a company like Apple, HTC is left to pick from those sensors that are more widely available. In other words, options are limited.

The solution this round was to keep the rear sensor from the M7 (without OIS), and augment it with another rear facing camera module. I’ll get to the use of the second sensor in a bit, but ultimately that’s the going to be the biggest friction point with the new One. Those customers who were happy with the M7’s camera will be pleased this round, but those who wanted a slight bump in spatial resolution will be left wanting more.

 

[B0WIE]

Money quote from link posted above:

The story of last year’s One revolved around HTC’s decision to use a larger format 4MP camera sensor instead of moving to a higher megapixel sensor with smaller pixels. It was a polarizing tradeoff, but one that was somewhat validated by Apple with its choice of maintaining resolution but increasing pixel/sensor size with the 5s. The most obvious fix for those who had issues with the lack of spatial resolution with last year’s One would be to go to a higher resolution sensor, without going as far as Samsung and LG. Unfortunately, without the buying power of a company like Apple, HTC is left to pick from those sensors that are more widely available. In other words, options are limited.

The solution this round was to keep the rear sensor from the M7 (without OIS), and augment it with another rear facing camera module. I’ll get to the use of the second sensor in a bit, but ultimately that’s the going to be the biggest friction point with the new One. Those customers who were happy with the M7’s camera will be pleased this round, but those who wanted a slight bump in spatial resolution will be left wanting more.

I don't know how many times I must say it before you acknowledge it but, one again, I recall reading about the subject 2 years ago, when someone at HTC said they were caught between moving toward a lower MP cam for better light but the HTC rep specifically said they were concerned about doing such a maneuver because the public has been miseducated about photography due to the whole MP race. You are quoting a phone columnist's speculation, which means next to nothing in my book. The M8 cam is gorgeous, slays the 8mp cam on my original one, and I personally liked it better than the S4 I compared it to, though it wasn't a night/day difference, save for the new tech on the M8. I'll put my experience and photog education up against any phone journalist.

I really cannot fathom what causes a person to constantly spread misinformation about a phone they aren't interested in but I guess that's a "thing" around here. It's just unfortunate to those who are trying to learn and make an educated buying decision. For the sake of keeping this from developing into an argument, I'll let you have the last word.

 

[James E1]

Money quote from link posted above:

The story of last year’s One revolved around HTC’s decision to use a larger format 4MP camera sensor instead of moving to a higher megapixel sensor with smaller pixels. It was a polarizing tradeoff, but one that was somewhat validated by Apple with its choice of maintaining resolution but increasing pixel/sensor size with the 5s. The most obvious fix for those who had issues with the lack of spatial resolution with last year’s One would be to go to a higher resolution sensor, without going as far as Samsung and LG. Unfortunately, without the buying power of a company like Apple, HTC is left to pick from those sensors that are more widely available. In other words, options are limited.

The solution this round was to keep the rear sensor from the M7 (without OIS), and augment it with another rear facing camera module. I’ll get to the use of the second sensor in a bit, but ultimately that’s the going to be the biggest friction point with the new One. Those customers who were happy with the M7’s camera will be pleased this round, but those who wanted a slight bump in spatial resolution will be left wanting more.

That's simply not the case. The 4 ultra pixel sensor is special made for the HTC One. The sensor is not more widely available since it is not mass produced. The article is wrong or just his opinion.

 

[Lynx]

I don't know how many times I must say it before you acknowledge it but, one again, I recall reading about the subject 2 years ago, when someone at HTC said they were caught between moving toward a lower MP cam for better light but the HTC rep specifically said they were concerned about doing such a maneuver because the public has been miseducated about photography due to the whole MP race. You are quoting a phone columnist's speculation, which means next to nothing in my book. The M8 cam is gorgeous, slays the 8mp cam on my original one, and I personally liked it better than the S4 I compared it to, though it wasn't a night/day difference, save for the new tech on the M8. I'll put my experience and photog education up against any phone journalist.

I really cannot fathom what causes a person to constantly spread misinformation about a phone they aren't interested in but I guess that's a "thing" around here. It's just unfortunate to those who are trying to learn and make an educated buying decision. For the sake of keeping this from developing into an argument, I'll let you have the last word.

People refuse facts my man. I posted a few facts about megapixels a few posts back. I am a professional photographer, published, and licensed on 500px and people still eat up whatever the companies tell them.



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[Skyway]

People refuse facts my man. I posted a few facts about megapixels a few posts back. I am a professional photographer, published, and licensed on 500px and people still eat up whatever the companies tell them.



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It's pretty alarming the amount of misinformation that gets passed on as fact

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[nj1266]

That's simply not the case. The 4 ultra pixel sensor is special made for the HTC One. The sensor is not more widely available since it is not mass produced. The article is wrong or just his opinion.

The fact is that HTC could have found a way around this trade off (better lowlight pictures and a loss of resolution in daytime pictures) by simply increasing the number of pixels on the sensor from 4 to 6 megapixel and making the pixel size smaller, say from 2.0 micron to 1.5 micron. That would address the problem head on.

For whatever reason, they chose not to. Is it corporate stubbornness, like Apple? Is it lack of purchasing power? Don't know.


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[Skyway]

The fact is that HTC could have found a way around this trade off (better lowlight pictures and a loss of resolution in daytime pictures) by simply increasing the number of pixels on the sensor from 4 to 6 megapixel and making the pixel size smaller, say from 2.0 micron to 1.5 micron. That would address the problem head on.

For whatever reason, they chose not to. Is it corporate stubbornness, like Apple? Is it lack of purchasing power? Don't know.


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I'm sure if it was that simple then they would have done it. The fact is they've spent a lot of money in research and development for the ultrapixel sensor, so if it was just that easy to completely redesign the entire camera sensor don't you think they would have done it? I'm sure all the HTC engineers know a thing it two more than some guy on a forum. Some people....

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[nj1266]

I'm sure if it was that simple then they would have done it. The fact is they've spent a lot of money in research and development for the ultrapixel sensor, so if it was just that easy to completely redesign the entire camera sensor don't you think they would have done it? I'm sure all the HTC engineers know a thing it two more than some guy on a forum. Some people....

Posted via Android Central App

You give people in corporations more credit than they are due. There are the engineers who probably wanted to solve this issue and there are the bean counters who probably put there foot down and said no. Maybe due to cost or maybe due to stubbornness.

This happens a lot in corporations. Look at Apple, they have insisted on keeping the phone size 4 inch despite the demand for larger phones. Surely Apple has the resources to develop a larger phone!!! But they did not and that allowed customers to flee to other OSes.

Corporations have bureaucrats just like govts. And they are not immune to making dumb decisions.


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[Lynx]

The fact is that HTC could have found a way around this trade off (better lowlight pictures and a loss of resolution in daytime pictures) by simply increasing the number of pixels on the sensor from 4 to 6 megapixel and making the pixel size smaller, say from 2.0 micron to 1.5 micron. That would address the problem head on.

For whatever reason, they chose not to. Is it corporate stubbornness, like Apple? Is it lack of purchasing power? Don't know.


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An increase from 4mp to 6mp would not be noticeable at all. They would have needed to go to 10 or more for people to really notice a difference.

In fact I bet if they marketed as an 8mp shooter people would be raving about it.



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[GolferChris68]

I've shot a number of images with this phone's camera. It definitely has it's weaknesses, and it doesn't fare so well when discussing resolving power vs other sensors with larger numbers of pixels. However, for 95% of people, the camera on this phone will be perfectly fine.

I've seen a few people complaining that 4mp is not enough for doing large prints, but in reality, if being able to create large prints is that important, a $250 point & shoot is a much better option. The other complaint is that 4mp isn't enough to do a lot of cropping. However, I would respond by saying that you probably could have framed and composed the image more effectively to minimize the need to crop. Not to sound harsh, but if you're cropping most of the photos that you take, the problem is you, not the camera.

This is a phone camera, with a small sensor and lens. There are always tradeoffs in the design of small camera assemblies - with today's technology, a tiny sensor and lens can't compare to an SLR or compact camera. However, I do hope that HTC addresses some of the camera issues in a firmware update, because that can make a difference. The auto-white-balance is touchy, and landscape shots should be better than what they are. They can probably remove some of the digital artifacts, and make the noise reduction more effective than it is today. Without those updates, I suspect that once the S5 is released to the general public, that we will see the HTC One photos faring poorly in direct comparisons. So, I really hope HTC has a camera update ready to go, and that it's something that can be released independently of a carrier-approved firmware update.

A final comment on photography in general - an interesting photo shot on a crappy camera is always going to be better than a boring photo shot with an SLR. When shooting with the HTC One, or any camera, try to take shots from different angles and perspectives. Get closer to your subjects. Find interesting people or objects. Find colorful items, or great scenes for black and white. Find stuff that other people don't normally see, and shoot that. With spring hopefully arriving soon (weather has been horrible in the eastern United States), there are so many opportunities to take interesting shots, even with the HTC One! Don't be afraid to experiment!

 

[ErnstMach]

Money quote from link posted above:

The story of last year?s One revolved around HTC?s decision to use a larger format 4MP camera sensor instead of moving to a higher megapixel sensor with smaller pixels. It was a polarizing tradeoff, but one that was somewhat validated by Apple with its choice of maintaining resolution but increasing pixel/sensor size with the 5s. The most obvious fix for those who had issues with the lack of spatial resolution with last year?s One would be to go to a higher resolution sensor, without going as far as Samsung and LG. Unfortunately, without the buying power of a company like Apple, HTC is left to pick from those sensors that are more widely available. In other words, options are limited.

The solution this round was to keep the rear sensor from the M7 (without OIS), and augment it with another rear facing camera module. I?ll get to the use of the second sensor in a bit, but ultimately that?s the going to be the biggest friction point with the new One. Those customers who were happy with the M7?s camera will be pleased this round, but those who wanted a slight bump in spatial resolution will be left wanting more.

That money quote, as you call it, doesn't even acknowledge that the sensor is updated and not the one from the M7

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