I think Verizon's network is causing the reboots

[Chrisy]

I don't use Mobile IM and I have reboots. My reboots occur in the same part of town consistently.

 

[robrecht]

I do, in fact, suspect eHRPD as a potential cause of the rebooting. Not the tower end of it, but the required radio and subsequent firmware on the device. However, with that said, it *may* in fact be an issue where a eHRPD tower wants eHRPD protocol from a device, and a non-eHRPD tower wants non-eHRPD protocol from another device. Meaning that people with Thunderbolt could experience reboots if they hit a non-eHRPD tower, and non-eHRPD devices experience reboots when they hit an eHRPD tower. Did that make sense to anyone?

That certainly sounds tower related to me. But I doubt it's that simple. I think the eHRPD towers generally work with "non-eHRPD devices" and vice-versa, but relatively infrequent transitions, traffic, or other unknown (to me anyway) factors render the problem intermittent and difficult to diagnose. I have the impression that setting up a tower correctly is not child's play, and that it has become more difficult and less predictable with eHRPD and 4G, and even moreso the corresponding phone firmware. I suspect this may be why VoLTE has been pushed back. The prospect of so many dropped calls when a signal needed to transition from LTE to 2G is just not acceptable to Verizon's executives. But, as others have noted, most of us here are merely guessing, just Verizon customers hoping that Verizon and HTC work out their problems sooner than later.

 

[robrecht]

Mortiel, I see you have not responded to these issues I tried to engage you on below. Not sure if this might be because you are speaking publically as someone a known to be a Verizon employee or something like that???

Its sadly inconclusive if you have not been experiencing severe reboots after the OTA.

One person's experience can never be conclusive. But interesting that you are presumably acknowledging that there is another factor contributing to the problem. Are you thinking about differences/defects between individual phones and not just the OTA update?

Honestly, considering the amount of power cycling issues I hear about on a wide variety of devices, I suspect it is likely a protocol corruption that has been severely overlooked for a long time now, or a new technology update that does not mesh well with older technology still in use.

And what's the most common denominator? The Verizon towers that combine old and new technology and protocols.

The iPhone is about the only device that appears immune, which irks me since Apple is so secretive about everything.

Verizon's contract with Apple does not allow for, even require, sharing of code and engineering design parameters? Surely some people at Verizon have access to this. If so, maybe it's just an issue of corporate priorities.

Coming back to this question. Don't some Verizon engineers probably know exactly how each phone manufacturer is managing their phones' connection to the Verizon network? If it is such an old issue, I would think it would have been identified by now. If it has to do with the very recent implementation of eHRRD into Verizon's 3G and 4G network, I would think Verizon would have been collaborating very closely with HTC to design the radio & code on this phone to make sure it meshes well with their all-important network.

While I certainly wouldn't expect Verizon to share Apple trade secrets with HTC, wouldn't Verizon also have collaborated closely with Apple on how the Verizon CDMA iPhone communicates with their network?

In other words, I don't think Verizon can play the victim card here, at the mercy of the OEM electronics companies like HTC. I recall that one of the last obstacles to the ThunderBolt being released was an agreement that HTC would provide an OTA update and a later upgrade to GB for the ThunderBolt. Ultimately, Verizon is responsible for the QC of the phones it contracts with the manufacturers to manufacture for Verizon's customers. I get tired of Verizon techs frequently blaming problems on OEMs. Not saying you are doing that, but it does happen too frequently when we customers call Verizon tech support. Thanks for listening. I feel better, anyway.

 

[Treknologist]

I'm beginning to wonder about this network issue myself. I live between Miami and Philly because of work. When in PA, my phone hardly ever reboots; however, when in Miami the phone reboots multiple times a day. Needless to say, it is very annoying. I hope the figure this out soon and fix it.

 

[Dcpmark#AC]

I'm in LA. Zero reboots since I manually did the update a few days ago (109 hours of "up" time and 100 hours of "awake" time so far).

 

[Maddog241]

That certainly sounds tower related to me. But I doubt it's that simple. I think the eHRPD towers generally work with "non-eHRPD devices" and vice-versa, but relatively infrequent transitions, traffic, or other unknown (to me anyway) factors render the problem intermittent and difficult to diagnose. I have the impression that setting up a tower correctly is not child's play, and that it has become more difficult and less predictable with eHRPD and 4G, and even moreso the corresponding phone firmware. I suspect this may be why VoLTE has been pushed back. The prospect of so many dropped calls when a signal needed to transition from LTE to 2G is just not acceptable to Verizon's executives. But, as others have noted, most of us here are merely guessing, just Verizon customers hoping that Verizon and HTC work out their problems sooner than later.

While I personally don't have reboot issues with my T-Bolt, I have had contact with a VZW Engineer in reference to 4G issues with our mobile data modems. There are separate antennas for the LTE network that were added to existing tower sites that are visibly larger than the original ones , and according to the engineer, this LTE network is difficult to configure and requires occasional adjustments as it is still very new. He pretty much said they are learning some things as they go just as we are.

On two occasions we have had a problem with data dropping and I was able to figure out what specific area was affected, down to the exact tower site. I had called Verizon repeatedly until they started a network trouble ticket. An engineer actually called me back in a couple of days and the problem was solved both times.

If I were having reboots with my T-Bolt, and I knew it was in a specific area where it occurred, I would try calling until I was able to get a network trouble ticket initiated. It helps them if you can narrow down the area, as the engineer was happy that I made it easier for him. The hardest part for me was convincing the tech support people on the phone that I knew what I was talking about.

I can feel the frustration as I read the posts here. Maybe, just maybe this might help someone. i hope so.

 

[robrecht]

While I personally don't have reboot issues with my T-Bolt, I have had contact with a VZW Engineer in reference to 4G issues with our mobile data modems. There are separate antennas for the LTE network that were added to existing tower sites that are visibly larger than the original ones , and according to the engineer, this LTE network is difficult to configure and requires occasional adjustments as it is still very new. He pretty much said they are learning some things as they go just as we are.

On two occasions we have had a problem with data dropping and I was able to figure out what specific area was affected, down to the exact tower site. I had called Verizon repeatedly until they started a network trouble ticket. An engineer actually called me back in a couple of days and the problem was solved both times.

If I were having reboots with my T-Bolt, and I knew it was in a specific area where it occurred, I would try calling until I was able to get a network trouble ticket initiated. It helps them if you can narrow down the area, as the engineer was happy that I made it easier for him. The hardest part for me was convincing the tech support people on the phone that I knew what I was talking about.

I can feel the frustration as I read the posts here. Maybe, just maybe this might help someone. i hope so.

That's exactly what I did actually. The 3rd time I spoke with tech support, I had to practically beg the guy not to send me a replacement phone because I thought my phone was a good one, relatively speaking, and certainly better than inheriting someone else's CFLN problem phone. Instead, I said I was trying to get Verizon to look into whether or not some of their towers might be contributing to the issue, in addition to the OTA update. He said he could open a ticket but he knew what the result would be and he didn't think it would help. But I'd had good experience with a Verizon network engineer in the past so told him to just open the ticket and let me worry about whether I could handle the truth. The network engineer called me and he had a ThunderBolt that was rebooting more than mine. He too did not want a CFLN phone and instead wanted to keep his, in part, to help him figure out what the problem is. He personally had not noticed any geographical correlation but he said he would look into it and get back to me. And, yes, they do get back to you and let you know what they've found and fixed.

 

[Maddog241]

That's exactly what I did actually. The 3rd time I spoke with tech support, I had to practically beg the guy not to send me a replacement phone because I thought my phone was a good one, relatively speaking, and certainly better than inheriting someone else's CFLN problem phone. Instead, I said I was trying to get Verizon to look into whether or not some of their towers might be contributing to the issue, in addition to the OTA update. He said he could open a ticket but he knew what the result would be and he didn't think it would help. But I'd had good experience with a Verizon network engineer in the past so told him to just open the ticket and let me worry about whether I could handle the truth. The network engineer called me and he had a ThunderBolt that was rebooting more than mine. He too did not want a CFLN phone and instead wanted to keep his, in part, to help him figure out what the problem is. He personally had not noticed any geographical correlation but he said he would look into it and get back to me. And, yes, they do get back to you and let you know what they've found and fixed.

From what you said, it doesn't sound like the engineer was able to find a tower problem? The hardest part was convincing them (VZW) that had "a clue" as to what I was talking about. Especially the first time... After that I kept the enigineer's contact info (he was ok with that) and I just contact him directly now if I find an issue. I have had the fortune of being correct in finding issues and I'm 2 for 2 with him, so he is receptive to looking into locations when I contact him.

 

[Mortiel]

Mortiel, I see you have not responded to these issues I tried to engage you on below. Not sure if this might be because you are speaking publically as someone a known to be a Verizon employee or something like that???

One person's experience can never be conclusive. But interesting that you are presumably acknowledging that there is another factor contributing to the problem. Are you thinking about differences/defects between individual phones and not just the OTA update?





Coming back to this question. Don't some Verizon engineers probably know exactly how each phone manufacturer is managing their phones' connection to the Verizon network? If it is such an old issue, I would think it would have been identified by now. If it has to do with the very recent implementation of eHRRD into Verizon's 3G and 4G network, I would think Verizon would have been collaborating very closely with HTC to design the radio & code on this phone to make sure it meshes well with their all-important network.

While I certainly wouldn't expect Verizon to share Apple trade secrets with HTC, wouldn't Verizon also have collaborated closely with Apple on how the Verizon CDMA iPhone communicates with their network?

In other words, I don't think Verizon can play the victim card here, at the mercy of the OEM electronics companies like HTC. I recall that one of the last obstacles to the ThunderBolt being released was an agreement that HTC would provide an OTA update and a later upgrade to GB for the ThunderBolt. Ultimately, Verizon is responsible for the QC of the phones it contracts with the manufacturers to manufacture for Verizon's customers. I get tired of Verizon techs frequently blaming problems on OEMs. Not saying you are doing that, but it does happen too frequently when we customers call Verizon tech support. Thanks for listening. I feel better, anyway.

I haven't been unresponsive... I got the flu so it makes it a pain to move, much less type. I'll get back to you in a day or two once it passes.

 

[robrecht]

From what you said, it doesn't sound like the engineer was able to find a tower problem? The hardest part was convincing them (VZW) that had "a clue" as to what I was talking about. Especially the first time... After that I kept the enigineer's contact info (he was ok with that) and I just contact him directly now if I find an issue. I have had the fortune of being correct in finding issues and I'm 2 for 2 with him, so he is receptive to looking into locations when I contact him.

I will actually be very surprised and impressed if he does. Basically, in two different areas I've experienced either a data-connection loss or a spontaneous reboot only 12 times that I know of in 26 days since the OTA reboot. That's less than once every two days. If there was a phone I wanted more, I would ask for an upgrade, but I can live with this as long as they are looking into the issue for those who are having much worse problems than me. I'm really just trying to do my part as a loyal customer to help them figure this out.

 

[Johnly]

Verizon better fix those towers, friend of mine had over 10 reboots on his TB yesterday.

 

[robrecht]

I haven't been unresponsive... I got the flu so it makes it a pain to move, much less type. I'll get back to you in a day or two once it passes.

Sorry to hear that. Hope you feel better soon.

 

[VideoEngineerAJS]

It's got to be tower related. I just got my wife the Revolution yesterday and she's had two reboots since then and both times it was when she was in weak signal area.

Sent from my Thunderbolt

 

[Johnly]

There you have it folks, Verizon 4g is suck.

 

[VideoEngineerAJS]

There you have it folks, Verizon 4g is suck.

I wouldn't say that. It is just whenever the signal is weak. It could be a chipset issue since both use the same processor. So I may have jumped the gun because I forgot about that.

Sent from my Thunderbolt

 

[soccerfon711]

My reboots happen in a certain area as well. Sadly, that area is my home so I can't do too much about it.

What I'm wondering is if it is the tower or if it's the phone's inability to establish a solid connection, causing it to go haywire?

 

[MegaSoundwave76]

Even though I don't get the reboot issues, I do get the sporadic drop off of mobile data (4G/3G/1X icon just goes away on my phone). When this happens,I look at my wife's DInc2 and her 3G indicator is lit up. I'll ask her to do something that requires data and I'll do the same thing and lo and behold, I can't do any web surfing and she's just fine. I truly think it's a network issue, but not in the traditional sense. I would love to see what the Droid Charge and LG Rev owners say about their 4G connections actually. Wonder what the data looks like. I think the Thunderbolt radio system is way more complicated than the other 4G phones, so it makes troubleshooting a pain in the butt for the VZW folk. Mortiel did mention something about the eHPRD radio and since this differentiates the TBolt from the Charge and Rev, wonder if that is the main cause of the issue? Wonder with all the different protocols the TBolt has to run through that the code just isn't good enough yet. I say screw it and just have an OTA that dissables it (heck, I'd be down to be a guinea pig for HTC and test that out) and see how the phone does without it and that could give Verizon and HTC some useful data. Do I need voice over 3G? It's a nice feature but more of a gimmick for me. AT&T can have that. ;-)

 

[PJnc284]

My reboots happen in a certain area as well. Sadly, that area is my home so I can't do too much about it.

What I'm wondering is if it is the tower or if it's the phone's inability to establish a solid connection, causing it to go haywire?

yeah, luckily mine only reboots at my parents house which is about 2 hours away so I only go there maybe one weekend a month.

 

[One Radical Dude]

My reboots/shutdowns happen anywhere. At home, in other cities, doesn't matter if I get perfect signal or not, my TB either does the reboot or it will shut down period.

 

[robrecht]

Even though I don't get the reboot issues, I do get the sporadic drop off of mobile data (4G/3G/1X icon just goes away on my phone). When this happens,I look at my wife's DInc2 and her 3G indicator is lit up. I'll ask her to do something that requires data and I'll do the same thing and lo and behold, I can't do any web surfing and she's just fine. I truly think it's a network issue, but not in the traditional sense. I would love to see what the Droid Charge and LG Rev owners say about their 4G connections actually. Wonder what the data looks like. I think the Thunderbolt radio system is way more complicated than the other 4G phones, so it makes troubleshooting a pain in the butt for the VZW folk. Mortiel did mention something about the eHPRD radio and since this differentiates the TBolt from the Charge and Rev, wonder if that is the main cause of the issue? Wonder with all the different protocols the TBolt has to run through that the code just isn't good enough yet. I say screw it and just have an OTA that dissables it (heck, I'd be down to be a guinea pig for HTC and test that out) and see how the phone does without it and that could give Verizon and HTC some useful data. Do I need voice over 3G? It's a nice feature but more of a gimmick for me. AT&T can have that. ;-)

But the purpose of eHRPD is not merely*, and not even primarily, for SVDO. I think it handles a lot of the hand-offs that make it possible to roll-out the 4G LTE network gradually rather than needing to do it all at once. That's why I speculated above that problems with eHRPD might also slow down the roll-out of VoLTE. You don't want data, and even less calls, being dropped between 4G and non-4G areas. It's not just 4G LTE that is cutting edge, but also the conversion of the network to 4G LTE in as seamless a way as possible. I think so far things are advancing more quickly than I thought they would, but that's only because I didn't think I would have such amazing 4G performance where I live on the very first day. It's hard to imagine how daunting a task this is for the whole country.

*I agree it is not really worth it, except if I need to receive or make a call while tethering. It should come as no real surprise that this real use of SVDO is not advertized by carriers 'cause they don't really want you to tethering unless your paying an additional fee, which I'm happy to pay BTW since I don't need it much and it is prorated on a daily basis.