I think Verizon's network is causing the reboots

[Maddog241]

Actually, you case could not be more convoluted. In fact, I am still trying to determine what your point was and how is it relevant to this topic. And what are you even talking about with "as cities get LTE for the first time next year and in 2013"? LTE already has 110+ million people covered in more than 50 cities... so what are you talking about that LTE will hit cities for the FIRST time next year? And do you even know what "better chip implementation" means?

Whatever your point was, the only thing I took from it was that you rest your case WAY too much, mate. You'll go blind doing that.

My point:

The Qualcomm MDM9600 LTE hardware was originally used in the scrapped version of the 4.3" Bionic. It for some reason had a serious problem playing nice with Nvidia's Tegra 2 dual-core processor. I have talked about this before. I do not know if it is in the update version of the 4.5" Bionic, or if said version has a Tegra 2.

The Tegra 2 seems to work fine in other 3G devices, and Samsung has a dual-core processor in the Galaxy Tab 10.1 because they use their own LTE radio hardware, not Qualcomm's. Well, that humble MDM9600 seems to be quite the troublemaker wouldn't you say?

So now explain to me how it is HTC's bad that Qualcomm doesn't play well with others? HTC didn't make the hardware... they just put it in the phone. They didn't realize how nasty the MDM9600 was until that OTA update was out.

The point of this thread was to help determine the parameters that cause power cycling, not who is to blame. I have stated over and over what the problem was. It is the protocol by which the radio communicates with the phone, as well as the way to which the radio positions that protocol. That helps nothing. Getting the phone fixed is finding the piece of incorrect coding that is the true cause. We think we have found it, but I suppose that we will find out in about two weeks.

Point is:
HTC is not at fault.
Google is not at fault.
Qualcomm is the culprit.
Verizon is at fault by association.
A fix is almost here.

See how clear that was? And I did not utter that four word phrase that you seem to overuse.

That was a very informative explanation, and please understand that I'm not trying to question your knowledge. I'm merely trying to expand my knowledge of these devices and the LTE technology. If I understood you correctly, the Qualcomm LTE chip is at fault? How then can anyone explain why only some devices are subject to the rebooting problem, both before and/or after the MR1 OTA update, if they all have the same QUalcomm "problem child" onboard?

 

[Jude526]

It isn't the network. A friend of mine is a Verizon store manager. He has the TB and says it is the phone. Doesn't happen to my brothers. It has happened to my friend

sent from my Incredible using tapatalk

 

[Maddog241]

It isn't the network. A friend of mine is a Verizon store manager. He has the TB and says it is the phone. Doesn't happen to my brothers. It has happened to my friend

sent from my Incredible using tapatalk

What is his explanation for why only some suffer from this problem if the phone is to blame?

 

[chrisrach3]

I don't know what's causing it, but I do know that I am on my fifth ThunderBolt:

1) My original phone had power cycling issues.
2) The next one they sent kept forcing my phone to download the update every time I rebooted, which was every time the update was forced to my phone. So it would automatically download, automatically install, automatically reboot, and then repeat.
3) Hardware issue--power button was too recessed into the phone. Plus power cycling.
4) Power cycling. They finally agreed to send me a brand new ThunderBolt per HTC's recommendation. It took a lot of convincing on my part, though.
5) Drum roll please... ...aaaand, this one also power cycles. So far as I know, it's power cycled today for the first time in a couple of days. This time, my phone showed that there was an error with roaming, data collection, something along those lines. It took me to the screen where I needed to have all the boxes checked, including using data while roaming, which I've never messed with before, and it was unchecked. I checked it, and it took a while for the error message to go away. It finally went away, and my phone is in business again. My guess is it will power cycle again. And I don't know why.

My other guess is that power cycling affects everyone who's had the update. Some people, though, probably don't use the phone enough to know that it's power cycling (it probably power cycles intermittently enough), so it goes unreported.

 

[Maddog241]

I don't know what's causing it, but I do know that I am on my fifth ThunderBolt:

1) My original phone had power cycling issues.
2) The next one they sent kept forcing my phone to download the update every time I rebooted, which was every time the update was forced to my phone. So it would automatically download, automatically install, automatically reboot, and then repeat.
3) Hardware issue--power button was too recessed into the phone. Plus power cycling.
4) Power cycling. They finally agreed to send me a brand new ThunderBolt per HTC's recommendation. It took a lot of convincing on my part, though.
5) Drum roll please... ...aaaand, this one also power cycles. So far as I know, it's power cycled today for the first time in a couple of days. This time, my phone showed that there was an error with roaming, data collection, something along those lines. It took me to the screen where I needed to have all the boxes checked, including using data while roaming, which I've never messed with before, and it was unchecked. I checked it, and it took a while for the error message to go away. It finally went away, and my phone is in business again. My guess is it will power cycle again. And I don't know why.

My other guess is that power cycling affects everyone who's had the update. Some people, though, probably don't use the phone enough to know that it's power cycling (it probably power cycles intermittently enough), so it goes unreported.

There are many of us who have not had reboot issues before, during or after the MR1 update. And I closely monitor my battery's up time and awake time every day to verify that I'm not having reboots.

 

[Mortiel]

That was a very informative explanation, and please understand that I'm not trying to question your knowledge. I'm merely trying to expand my knowledge of these devices and the LTE technology. If I understood you correctly, the Qualcomm LTE chip is at fault? How then can anyone explain why only some devices are subject to the rebooting problem, both before and/or after the MR1 OTA update, if they all have the same QUalcomm "problem child" onboard?

No, its not the physical chip, and to be honest the phrase "Qualcomm is the culprit" is a misnomer.

As I understand it, it is the firmware's manner of communicating with Android. It has been problematic since the beginning... its more or less there was protocol error involving 2G/3G/4G/WiFi radio communication. More or less, the protocol deciding which radio gets the data connection at which time was rather screwy, and when the radios fight, the phone crashes or the wrong radio connects (hence why people were stuck in 1xRTT in a full LTE area). Think of it like the Windows network protocols TCP/IP versus Nagle Algorithm conflicting on which packet of data gets priority.

At least this is the 99% proven theory. We will see for certain in the coming weeks.

 

[lindros2#AC]

Well that would explain why I haven't had any issues. As I said in another thread the network here in St. Louis has been rock solid since day one. I have never dropped data connection unless I was in a basement or in the dead zone in my house.

I won't spam the other thread, but I had *horrible* battery life in St. Louis (Creve Coeur) with my Thunderbolt. Phone on at 6am, 80% battery by 7:30, 30% battery by 10:30/11:00, and nearly dead by noon.

With previous devices (RAZR, BlackBerry's galore), battery life was at least partially dependent on tower strength.

After nearly 20 years with Verizon (Bell Atlantic Mobile [1991] >>> Verizon Wireless [2011]), I gave up and went with an iPhone on AT&T. With tethering, unlimited cross-carrier mobile-to-mobile, and unlimited text, it's cheaper.

I have noticed that I'm not getting my ridiculous 25Mbps download speeds anymore (only 10-15Mbps now), but that could just be volume at a certain time of day.

I also found this. My initial speed tests were up in the 25-30Mpbs range, and settled to the mid-teens after a week or two (figuring that others had joined the 4G network and are consuming bandwidth).

 

[Maddog241]

No, its not the physical chip, and to be honest the phrase "Qualcomm is the culprit" is a misnomer.

As I understand it, it is the firmware's manner of communicating with Android. It has been problematic since the beginning... its more or less there was protocol error involving 2G/3G/4G/WiFi radio communication. More or less, the protocol deciding which radio gets the data connection at which time was rather screwy, and when the radios fight, the phone crashes or the wrong radio connects (hence why people were stuck in 1xRTT in a full LTE area). Think of it like the Windows network protocols TCP/IP versus Nagle Algorithm conflicting on which packet of data gets priority.

At least this is the 99% proven theory. We will see for certain in the coming weeks.

I understand the analogy and the concept of what you are saying. What I am looking for is why many of us are not affected by reboot issues. We all bought the same phone with the same firmware and software out of the box, but not all of them are having problems. How can that be?

 

[MegaSoundwave76]

Here's the funny part. I've been logging into my Evernote all occurrences when my phone would reboot. Right now on vacation (I live in the San Francisco Bay area) I've had 3 random reboots. One in Chicago while at O'Hare airport (4g area) and 2 reboots while in NY (Yorktown Heights, 3g only area). Never had one while in the Bay Area. Definitely weird. You folks should log down if you can when, where and on what mode (1x, 3g or 4g) and maybe send that sort of data to verizon. It may be very useful in some sort of way.
@Mortiel: I know you're a Verizon CSR, what do you think?

 

[MegaSoundwave76]

@Mortiel: My bad, I meant tech support, not csr.

 

[Mortiel]

Does anyone at Verizon acknowledge network/tower issues as possibly contributing to the ThunderBolt's data connectivity or rebooting issues?

Acknowledge? What are you, a reporter? And think about this question. Verizon has already made a statement regarding nationwide outages for LTE and eHRPD. Would that not be acknowledging a network issue with data connectivity? Aside from that, which is pretty major, I heave heard nothing else.

Why was MR1 started and then stopped before being eventually being resumed?

I can honestly say I have no idea here.

Were some people at Verizon already aware of some issues with MR1?

Of course not.Why in the hell would Verizon allow an MR to pass through knowing it would make what many consider a flagship device nearly unusable in some cases?

Did they perhaps think it would still fix more problems than it caused?

It did fix problems. More or less than it caused... that's a toss up.

What really happened with the nationwide 4G and eHRPD network issues?

What do you think? The blinkey "Problem" light went off. Our engineers reported it and fixed it.

Are the ThunderBolt's greater problems with the network related to being the only phone that currently tries to interface with the eHRPD network?

Nope. It seems the Thunderbolt has issues connecting and rebooting regardless of available tower.

Do the prevalence of reports of ThunderBolt data connectivity or rebooting issues correlate to any degree with Verizon's deployment of eHRPD towers?

Since you repeated you question with different wording, I'll repeat my answer:

"Acknowledge? What are you, a reporter? And think about this question. Verizon has already made a statement regarding nationwide outages for LTE and eHRPD. Would that not be acknowledging a network issue with data connectivity? Aside from that, which is pretty major, I heave heard nothing else."


It is rather agitating when you CLAIM that no one is interrogating anyone using the third person perspective as someone would when trying to make a fool or an enemy out of a target, then proceed to ask a barrage of questions (one of which is essentially repeated with different wording). Rob, that is an interrogation. And due to that oversight on your behalf, these will be the last questions I answer of yours. If you want any other information, please send a letter to Verizon.

If that was not your intention, maybe you need to look at your statements again and imagine you were in my position.

 

[robrecht]

Acknowledge? What are you, a reporter? And think about this question. Verizon has already made a statement regarding nationwide outages for LTE and eHRPD. Would that not be acknowledging a network issue with data connectivity? Aside from that, which is pretty major, I heave heard nothing else.

I can honestly say I have no idea here.

Of course not.Why in the hell would Verizon allow an MR to pass through knowing it would make what many consider a flagship device nearly unusable in some cases?

It did fix problems. More or less than it caused... that's a toss up.

What do you think? The blinkey "Problem" light went off. Our engineers reported it and fixed it.

Nope. It seems the Thunderbolt has issues connecting and rebooting regardless of available tower.

Since you repeated you question with different wording, I'll repeat my answer:

"Acknowledge? What are you, a reporter? And think about this question. Verizon has already made a statement regarding nationwide outages for LTE and eHRPD. Would that not be acknowledging a network issue with data connectivity? Aside from that, which is pretty major, I heave heard nothing else."

It is rather agitating when you CLAIM that no one is interrogating anyone using the third person perspective as someone would when trying to make a fool or an enemy out of a target, then proceed to ask a barrage of questions (one of which is essentially repeated with different wording). Rob, that is an interrogation. And due to that oversight on your behalf, these will be the last questions I answer of yours. If you want any other information, please send a letter to Verizon.

If that was not your intention, maybe you need to look at your statements again and imagine you were in my position.

OMG, I'm so sorry, Mortiel, that you're agitated by these questions! I have indeed tried to be very sensitive to your position and have twice said I would certainly understand if you do not feel comfortable trying to answer them. And, as you've demonstrated, you're clearly free not to try and respond to any of these questions. How such a free discussion qualifies as an interrogation is beyond me. Thank you for letting us know what you do not know. That is so much better than misinformation!

I am no reporter, just a very loyal customer trying to help Verizon understand and resolve some of the issues we, their customers, are experiencing. I engage Verizon reps and engineers in similar discussions quite frequently. Just today, I was in the store talking to a couple of friendly techs. None of them are intimated by me in the slightest. We all just want to understand and resolve the difficulties to the best of our ability.

As for why MR1 might have been released by Verizon even if they knew it might not fix the problems completely, as I've been saying for a while, we do not really know if it has caused more problems than it fixed. Maybe those responsible for the decision to release, stop, and then resume MR1 merely thought it would fix more problems than it might cause. I'm just guessing here because I'm not aware of Verizon making any official statement about this.

I do recall reading reports of the Verizon exec talking about the nationwide outage a couple of months ago, but in the report I read he made no reference whatsoever to this being related to the ThunderBolt's continuing rebooting or data-connectivity problems. I thought he was just talking about the one-time nationwide outage on April 27th. If he was indeed ackwoledging that the eHRPD network is contributing to these continuing ThunderBolt issues, that's news to me. I'll try to find a transcript to see if his remarks were being misrepresented in the press.

 

[Maddog241]

Sounds like tensions are a little high today. We are ALL frustrated by the issues with our beloved (or despised) Thunderbolts, but none more than those who have to field the calls from angry customers.

I truly believe that there are many people here who are genuinely brainstorming with the hope and intent of discovering maybe the one thing that hasn't been thought of yet. There are lots of people with lots of different ideas, and the lack of official information from Verizon only leads to more and more speculation.

Let's continue to work together! We might just make something happen...

 

[fullmerdvm]

just to weigh in....
my home area does not have 4g yet, however i have had to spend a few days in portland oregon about an hour north of me. while there i noticed my bolt switching from 4g to 3g back and forth and then noticed quite a few reboots. in fact i was in the hospital waiting room with 3g hotspot going for my computer and kept losing internet since the switching was constant. at that point i decided to bag the 4g and used "lteonoff" to turn off the 4g. since i've done that i've had no random reboots.
not sure if this helps in the information gathering or not, but there it is.

 

[Mortiel]

OMG, I'm so sorry, Mortiel, that you're agitated by these questions! I have indeed tried to be very sensitive to your position and have twice said I would certainly understand if you do not feel comfortable trying to answer them. And, as you've demonstrated, you're clearly free not to try and respond to any of these questions. How such a free discussion qualifies as an interrogation is beyond me. Thank you for letting us know what you do not know. That is so much better than misinformation!

I am no reporter, just a very loyal customer trying to help Verizon understand and resolve some of the issues we, their customers, are experiencing. I engage Verizon reps and engineers in similar discussions quite frequently. Just today, I was in the store talking to a couple of friendly techs. None of them are intimated by me in the slightest. We all just want to understand and resolve the difficulties to the best of our ability.

As for why MR1 might have been released by Verizon even if they knew it might not fix the problems completely, as I've been saying for a while, we do not really know if it has caused more problems than it fixed. Maybe those responsible for the decision to release, stop, and then resume MR1 merely thought it would fix more problems than it might cause. I'm just guessing here because I'm not aware of Verizon making any official statement about this.

I do recall reading reports of the Verizon exec talking about the nationwide outage a couple of months ago, but in the report I read he made no reference whatsoever to this being related to the ThunderBolt's continuing rebooting or data-connectivity problems. I thought he was just talking about the one-time nationwide outage on April 27th. If he was indeed ackwoledging that the eHRPD network is contributing to these continuing ThunderBolt issues, that's news to me. I'll try to find a transcript to see if his remarks were being misrepresented in the press.

Yes, I am free not to respond to any questions, however if I choose not to respond to a question, I get reminded of that over and over. I am not here just to field questions and help, but also to read and learn. I am not here as a superior knowledge on anything to anyone. I am just as another person, wanting to contribute what I know about the Thunderbolt and things directly affecting it. I have my weaknesses, to which one of the largest I am sure everyone has noticed is my lack of patience with the phrase, "I deserve a free flagship phone."

I ignore questions for many reasons:

1. First and foremost, I will ignore it if its common sense and anyone could answer or not answer it with basic logic.
2. If it contains the phrase, "I deserve a free flagship phone." in any deviation I will *try* not to answer for the sake of becoming short with someone.
3. I do not know the answer -or- I am otherwise unable to answer.

If I do not answer, bringing the question back up does not make anyone more inclined to answer that I know of... In fact, every time you continually bring something up (even something innocent), it tends to aggravate people. This not an uncommon response. When you continue to bring up a list of dry questions, its aggravating AND it encourages someone to become defensive.

Aside, Verizon made no announcement that the data outage in April had anything to do with eHRPD contributing to network issues. I am sure it has, but we have gotten no reports of it. However, the outage in April was not just LTE. Many places also had no eHRPD. Me? I didn't even have 3G for days. Yeah, it was a rather major outage that went on for several days.

 

[robrecht]

Yes, I am free not to respond to any questions, however if I choose not to respond to a question, I get reminded of that over and over. I am not here just to field questions and help, but also to read and learn. I am not here as a superior knowledge on anything to anyone. I am just as another person, wanting to contribute what I know about the Thunderbolt and things directly affecting it. I have my weaknesses, to which one of the largest I am sure everyone has noticed is my lack of patience with the phrase, "I deserve a free flagship phone."

I ignore questions for many reasons:

1. First and foremost, I will ignore it if its common sense and anyone could answer or not answer it with basic logic.
2. If it contains the phrase, "I deserve a free flagship phone." in any deviation I will *try* not to answer for the sake of becoming short with someone.
3. I do not know the answer -or- I am otherwise unable to answer.

If I do not answer, bringing the question back up does not make anyone more inclined to answer that I know of... In fact, every time you continually bring something up (even something innocent), it tends to aggravate people. This not an uncommon response. When you continue to bring up a list of dry questions, its aggravating AND it encourages someone to become defensive.

Aside, Verizon made no announcement that the data outage in April had anything to do with eHRPD contributing to network issues. I am sure it has, but we have gotten no reports of it. However, the outage in April was not just LTE. Many places also had no eHRPD. Me? I didn't even have 3G for days. Yeah, it was a rather major outage that went on for several days.

The only reason I reminded you of some of these questions being discussed here was that you said you intended to reply and had not yet only because you had the flu. It seems like your bringing up the statement of the Verizon exec on the nationwide network malfunction was completely irrelevant to the ThunderBolt questions being discussed here.

Thanks, Robrecht

 

[Hawk11nw]

I had my first reboot, It was shortly after i switched from CDMA-LTE/EvDo Auto to CDMA auto (PRL). I just wanted to see what the difference in battery life would be. I thought it might be a fluke so I left it on 3G, sure as hell I had another one a couple hrs later, and then it actually shut down completely, just powered off for some reason. I switched back to 4G and not 1 reboot since and this was 2 weeks ago.
Im stock rooted.

 

[CMRobinson]

It's handing off from tower to tower. Traveling down I-20 west I had 2 reboots in 7 miles. All I was doing was listening to music. I'm sure there is a lot more to the technical aspect of it, but my reboots have come struggling to find a signal or swapping towers.