Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
Point taken, but the Note 7 still doesn't charge as fast as the Note 4 by swapping the battery.
Point taken, but the Note 7 still doesn't charge as fast as the Note 4 by swapping the battery.
Is the Note 7 worth upgrading to from the Note 4?
- Thread starter Alex Wetzel
- Start date
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
This. It's not even close. As an example, the Nokia Lumia 1020 has 41 MP yet is tied for being the 37th best camera in mobile. I think that's the highest MP in a phone.
For reference, the top 10 cameras are:
Tied for 1st: 12 MP, 12 MP, 12 MP, 23 MP
Tied for 5th: 21 MP, 16 MP, 23 MP
Tied for 8th: 16 MP, 16 MP, 16 MP
Using the top 40 cameras as a data set, the correlation between rank and MP count is .2082, which means it's approximately random.
This. It's not even close. As an example, the Nokia Lumia 1020 has 41 MP yet is tied for being the 37th best camera in mobile. I think that's the highest MP in a phone.
For reference, the top 10 cameras are:
Tied for 1st: 12 MP, 12 MP, 12 MP, 23 MP
Tied for 5th: 21 MP, 16 MP, 23 MP
Tied for 8th: 16 MP, 16 MP, 16 MP
Using the top 40 cameras as a data set, the correlation between rank and MP count is .2082, which means it's approximately random.
D13H4RD2L1V3
Retired Moderator
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
Phone sensors are typically very small. Usually about 1/3" diagonal at the smallest end to about 1/2.3" diagonal at the largest in most applications. As with all camera sensors, there is a "sweet spot" that allows the camera to capture high amounts of detail while ensuring that the pixels receive enough light for better low-light performance.
Contrary to what you stated, megapixels are not what defines camera performance. In fact, camera performance is determined through multiple factors, which include;
There's way more to what makes a great camera than just megapixel count. In the case of the Note 4 vs the Note7, dropping from 16MP to 12MP isn't actually a bad move. This is done to increase pixel size. On the Note 4's IMX240, the pixel size is 1.12-microns. However, on the Note7's IMX260, the pixel size is increased to 1.4-microns. Obviously, daylight photos may appear a tiny bit soft, but overall, performance is great and still results in lots of detail.
However, the benefit is in low-light. Having a small pixel that is less able to receive light means that the ISO has to be ramped up aggressively while the shutter speed may also be slowed down for increased exposure. OIS can help with the latter for stability, but the former presents issues, especially when it comes to noise-reduction, which can actually smear some detail. In low-light scenarios, it's typically better to have a slightly lower MP count with larger pixels to reduce noise levels, so that noise-reduction doesn't have to be as aggressive in smearing detail to reduce noise.
Overall, the Note7's camera is actually an upgrade. Sure, you lose a few megapixels, but you gain a lot more. You gain much better low-light performance while largely retaining daylight performance, and you also gain an excellent Dual-Pixel autofocus system that's currently the fastest of any phone out there. There's more in store in that camera package, however.
Note that I'm in no way saying that the camera on the Note 4 is terrible. It's still a nice camera to use, even in this day. But Samsung wouldn't simply downgrade a camera. If they had to drop MP count, it would have to be for a good reason, and in this case, I'd say job well done.
As others above me have said, there's way more to what makes a great camera than just the megapixel count.
Phone sensors are typically very small. Usually about 1/3" diagonal at the smallest end to about 1/2.3" diagonal at the largest in most applications. As with all camera sensors, there is a "sweet spot" that allows the camera to capture high amounts of detail while ensuring that the pixels receive enough light for better low-light performance.
Contrary to what you stated, megapixels are not what defines camera performance. In fact, camera performance is determined through multiple factors, which include;
- Aperture size (concerns DoF and exposure)
- Lens quality (concerns color-fringing and chromatic abberations)
- Pixel size (concerns mainly low-light performance)
- Autofocus accuracy and speed
- Software processing
- Stabilization (OIS, DIS or hybrid)
- Sensor quality and size
- Dynamic range
There's way more to what makes a great camera than just megapixel count. In the case of the Note 4 vs the Note7, dropping from 16MP to 12MP isn't actually a bad move. This is done to increase pixel size. On the Note 4's IMX240, the pixel size is 1.12-microns. However, on the Note7's IMX260, the pixel size is increased to 1.4-microns. Obviously, daylight photos may appear a tiny bit soft, but overall, performance is great and still results in lots of detail.
However, the benefit is in low-light. Having a small pixel that is less able to receive light means that the ISO has to be ramped up aggressively while the shutter speed may also be slowed down for increased exposure. OIS can help with the latter for stability, but the former presents issues, especially when it comes to noise-reduction, which can actually smear some detail. In low-light scenarios, it's typically better to have a slightly lower MP count with larger pixels to reduce noise levels, so that noise-reduction doesn't have to be as aggressive in smearing detail to reduce noise.
Overall, the Note7's camera is actually an upgrade. Sure, you lose a few megapixels, but you gain a lot more. You gain much better low-light performance while largely retaining daylight performance, and you also gain an excellent Dual-Pixel autofocus system that's currently the fastest of any phone out there. There's more in store in that camera package, however.
Note that I'm in no way saying that the camera on the Note 4 is terrible. It's still a nice camera to use, even in this day. But Samsung wouldn't simply downgrade a camera. If they had to drop MP count, it would have to be for a good reason, and in this case, I'd say job well done.
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
Check out the amount of pixels they have in their cameras. Yes true, "pixels are not the only thing that define the image quality", but they are the primary thing.
I would expect the Note 7 to maintain 16MP - at a better quality than the Note 4, rather than reduce to 12MP - with quality of pixels making up for the loss of pixels.
Hasselblad understand cameras.
Check out the amount of pixels they have in their cameras. Yes true, "pixels are not the only thing that define the image quality", but they are the primary thing.
I would expect the Note 7 to maintain 16MP - at a better quality than the Note 4, rather than reduce to 12MP - with quality of pixels making up for the loss of pixels.
Kevin OQuinn
AC Team Emeritus
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
So you're willing to give up all of the improvements for what amounts to a convenience feature?
The logic isn't there. In fact, it's not even close.
I used to be a "swappable battery guy" (wanted the feature even if I didn't use it regularly) until improvements in literally everything else made me have to adapt sealed batteries.
Point taken, but the Note 7 still doesn't charge as fast as the Note 4 by swapping the battery.
So you're willing to give up all of the improvements for what amounts to a convenience feature?
The logic isn't there. In fact, it's not even close.
I used to be a "swappable battery guy" (wanted the feature even if I didn't use it regularly) until improvements in literally everything else made me have to adapt sealed batteries.
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
Yes, it is still in the top 20 (in a tie for 16th best) and holds its own against most 2015 phones, including the LG G4, Moto X Style and it's better than all the iPhone cameras to date except for the 6s Plus.
Yes, it is still in the top 20 (in a tie for 16th best) and holds its own against most 2015 phones, including the LG G4, Moto X Style and it's better than all the iPhone cameras to date except for the 6s Plus.
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
They're not the primary thing; the data just isn't there to support that claim in phones. I don't believe it's there to support that claim in any cameras, but it just doesn' t exist in phones. The correlation rounds to .21, indicating there is no correlation on phones, let alone any causal link. How many phones have Hassleblad cameras in them? The biggest things in phone image quality seem to be the handling of light and software processing.
They're not the primary thing; the data just isn't there to support that claim in phones. I don't believe it's there to support that claim in any cameras, but it just doesn' t exist in phones. The correlation rounds to .21, indicating there is no correlation on phones, let alone any causal link. How many phones have Hassleblad cameras in them? The biggest things in phone image quality seem to be the handling of light and software processing.
D13H4RD2L1V3
Retired Moderator
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
One bigger than a 1/2-inch sensor.
Unless you want a pretty big camera hump, I don't think that's practical
Yeah, they would need a bigger sensor for a 16MP sensor with a 1.4-micron pixel size...
One bigger than a 1/2-inch sensor.
Unless you want a pretty big camera hump, I don't think that's practical
Kevin OQuinn
AC Team Emeritus
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
Again, you're proving you don't have a solid understanding of cameras. That's not meant as an insult. It's just that cameras are far more complex than most people realize.
Yeah, I'd love a Hasselblad sensor on my phone. But then I'd have a giant camera with some phone functionality built in lol.
In the case of the Note 7 - to keep the pixel size what it is but increase the resolution the device would need to be thicker to accommodate the optics. How much thicker? I'm not sure, but enough that Samsung didn't want to do it.
Also look at the physical size of the sensor. Then realize the optics you need to attach to it to actually take pictures.
Again, you're proving you don't have a solid understanding of cameras. That's not meant as an insult. It's just that cameras are far more complex than most people realize.
Yeah, I'd love a Hasselblad sensor on my phone. But then I'd have a giant camera with some phone functionality built in lol.
In the case of the Note 7 - to keep the pixel size what it is but increase the resolution the device would need to be thicker to accommodate the optics. How much thicker? I'm not sure, but enough that Samsung didn't want to do it.
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
I'm not even going to give you this point. They decreased the MP count and got better Image Quality. Measurably better. That means the MP doesn't matter, at all, when comparing these two phones. Better matters.
I'm not even going to give you this point. They decreased the MP count and got better Image Quality. Measurably better. That means the MP doesn't matter, at all, when comparing these two phones. Better matters.
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
It would be more accurate if I said - developments have not advanced sufficient to maintain the pixel count along with the pixel quality improvements - in short, they had to compromise due to current limitations. Yes the result is still a better camera in the Note 7, than the Note 4 - but the point still stands - they made a trade off of pixels to gain in other areas.
Overall they advanced, but it is still a trade off.
No it would not "need to be thicker", it's called "miniaturization" and is a common theme in advancing technology - digital optics or otherwise.
It would be more accurate if I said - developments have not advanced sufficient to maintain the pixel count along with the pixel quality improvements - in short, they had to compromise due to current limitations. Yes the result is still a better camera in the Note 7, than the Note 4 - but the point still stands - they made a trade off of pixels to gain in other areas.
Overall they advanced, but it is still a trade off.
D13H4RD2L1V3
Retired Moderator
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
However, in the process, they made a better overall package. It's a trade-off that works for a lot of us.
Yes, they made a trade-off. That many of us can agree with.
However, in the process, they made a better overall package. It's a trade-off that works for a lot of us.
Kevin OQuinn
AC Team Emeritus
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
And no, they didn't make trade-offs. They improved picture quality across the board. Not to mention focus speed and capture speed which are frankly ridiculously fast on the S7 and presumably Note 7 since they are said to be identical.
IIRC the Note 4 has a 16:9 aspect ratio sensor, where the Note 7 has a 4:3. So in reality you are not losing ANY resolution. Just chop of the 2MP on each side off the Note 4 sensor to get the 4:3 aspect ratio of the Note 7. Done.
Yes, it would absolutely need to be thicker because of physics. We have yet to figure out a way to beat that.
And no, they didn't make trade-offs. They improved picture quality across the board. Not to mention focus speed and capture speed which are frankly ridiculously fast on the S7 and presumably Note 7 since they are said to be identical.
IIRC the Note 4 has a 16:9 aspect ratio sensor, where the Note 7 has a 4:3. So in reality you are not losing ANY resolution. Just chop of the 2MP on each side off the Note 4 sensor to get the 4:3 aspect ratio of the Note 7. Done.
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
Sorry I mispoke earlier, the correlation between IQ and MP is actually .085, not .21.
Here's the data with phones ranked in order; you'll notice that the MP column is colored in a way that appears random, because the correlation of .085 means that there is absolutely no connection between MP and IQ.
Sorry I mispoke earlier, the correlation between IQ and MP is actually .085, not .21.
Here's the data with phones ranked in order; you'll notice that the MP column is colored in a way that appears random, because the correlation of .085 means that there is absolutely no connection between MP and IQ.
LeoRex
Retired Moderator
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
Yes, they made a trade off... to gain but it isn't as much as you think. The newer 12MP sensor actually has a higher vertical resolution than the sensor in the Note 4, it is just that it is a 4:3 sensor and not a 16:9 sensor... so the Note 4 has two 2MP bands on the sides of the frame. Once you account for the difference in focal length between the two sensors, the 12MP has ever so slightly higher resolving ability.
Here is a graphic that illustrates this very clearly (thanks to Phonearena.com)
(The iPhone has the same resolution and aspect ratio as the one on the S7 and Note7... and the S6 shares its sensor with the Note 4 and 5 for that matter)
Fact of the matter is that any difference in picture quality between the Note 4 and Note 7 will not be related in any appreciable way to the number of pixels either phone has because outside of the aspect ratio change, they are virually identical.
Yes, they made a trade off... to gain but it isn't as much as you think. The newer 12MP sensor actually has a higher vertical resolution than the sensor in the Note 4, it is just that it is a 4:3 sensor and not a 16:9 sensor... so the Note 4 has two 2MP bands on the sides of the frame. Once you account for the difference in focal length between the two sensors, the 12MP has ever so slightly higher resolving ability.
Here is a graphic that illustrates this very clearly (thanks to Phonearena.com)
(The iPhone has the same resolution and aspect ratio as the one on the S7 and Note7... and the S6 shares its sensor with the Note 4 and 5 for that matter)
Fact of the matter is that any difference in picture quality between the Note 4 and Note 7 will not be related in any appreciable way to the number of pixels either phone has because outside of the aspect ratio change, they are virually identical.
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
After going to BestBuy today to check out the Note 7 and comparing it to S7 edge, I definitely will upgrade to the Note 7 from Note 4. Many people say Note 7 is the same as S7 edge. Well hardware specs it is, but the device feels WAY different to the S7 edge. It is physically better than the S7 edge. Compared to the Note 4, the Note 7 is just a beautiful device. The only thing I am losing from Note 4 is the replaceable battery. I seldomly use IR blaster so it does not matter to me.
After going to BestBuy today to check out the Note 7 and comparing it to S7 edge, I definitely will upgrade to the Note 7 from Note 4. Many people say Note 7 is the same as S7 edge. Well hardware specs it is, but the device feels WAY different to the S7 edge. It is physically better than the S7 edge. Compared to the Note 4, the Note 7 is just a beautiful device. The only thing I am losing from Note 4 is the replaceable battery. I seldomly use IR blaster so it does not matter to me.
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
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Based on your 2 excellent posts above you seem well versed on what's going on with these cameras. I've looked at the premium camera applications but it seems many of the manual functions are not supported on the Note 4, particularly shutter priority and also I wouldn't mind having RAW capability. Am I missing something ?
Since posting this I noticed a bunch of people who seem to know what gives with these cameras. Is there anyone at all who might be able to shed some light on this.
Posted Via My Note 4 With Armor Coated Bullet Proof Otter Box
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
For Samsung, RAW is supported on the Note 5, S6 Edge+, S7, S7 Edge and presumably on the Note 7. The LG G4, G5 and V10, along iwth Moto X Style, Nexus 5X, Nexus 6P and Xperia line also support RAW. I'm not sure if the HTC 10 does or not. Basically we're looking for devices that are on Lollipop or higher and have the Camera2 API utilized within their ROM.
For Samsung, RAW is supported on the Note 5, S6 Edge+, S7, S7 Edge and presumably on the Note 7. The LG G4, G5 and V10, along iwth Moto X Style, Nexus 5X, Nexus 6P and Xperia line also support RAW. I'm not sure if the HTC 10 does or not. Basically we're looking for devices that are on Lollipop or higher and have the Camera2 API utilized within their ROM.
D13H4RD2L1V3
Retired Moderator
Re: Note 7 or stick with Note 4?
Like Aquila said, it's up to the OEM to implement Camera2 API functionality into their devices. On the LG G3, for example, despite being on Marshmallow, the camera app does not utilize any Camera2 API features, and neither do third-party apps like Manual Camera.
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