Quick Charge vs USB Power Delivery

[Ry]

Digging up an old Google+ post that's getting new questions now that we have the LG G5 and HTC 10: https://plus.google.com/+BensonLeung/posts/cEvVQLXhyRX

 

[Bearcats98]

He is saying it "violates" the letter of the law. Which is fine and dandy. But what I am not seeing is a laymens explanation as to the RISKS of playing this game. I am not supposed to over boost the turbo in my car; but I do it...daily. I am looking for something that isn't hiding behind engineering speak. And I do respect what Benson is saying but...it needs more laymen speak clarification.

 

[Bearcats98]

+Jason Hsu So, if you read my posts before regarding how CC works, you'll know that Type-C to legacy USB cables rely on a pullup resistor from CC to Vbus to signal power advertisement. The device side uses an ADC to read the value of the CC line and determine power limits. The thresholds for the various limits are designed around Vbus being 5V on a legacy Type-A cable.

The problem is that if QC is allowed on a legacy cable like that, then the assumption that Vbus is 5V is thrown out the door. QC could raise it to 9V, 12V, 20V... Unpredictable behaviour could happen in this situation.

On a Type-C system with PD, even though the Vbus changes to 9V, 12V, or 20V, the CC is still pulled up to a 5V rail, so the CC communication is not disrupted by changing Vbus.

I think this might have a piece of the answer in it.

 

[B0WIE]

In other words, use the right cable. Perhaps, he's so caught up in his cable reviews and the recent attention he received that he spoke a little quickly, or too briefly, on the subject of the LG and HTC. I understand he wants to share information about USB C standards but I don't agree with taking jabs at manufacturers who find ways to safely hot-rod the existing format. (if I sound a bit snarky, it's because I see things like this in my line of work where well-meaning bloggers confuse consumers)

 

[Ry]

In other words, use the right cable. Perhaps, he's so caught up in his cable reviews and the recent attention he received that he spoke a little quickly, or too briefly, on the subject of the LG and HTC. I understand he wants to share information about USB C standards but I don't agree with taking jabs at manufacturers who find ways to safely hot-rod the existing format. (if I sound a bit snarky, it's because I see things like this in my line of work where well-meaning bloggers confuse consumers)

Note, the original post was from back in November.

 

[Ry]

http://www.androidcentral.com/qualcomm-addresses-usb-type-c-and-quick-charge-30-compatibility

Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition

 

[lindseybp]

Use the right cable and charger and all is good. That's it. This guy's Google plus post is getting blown out of proportion so badly. He's such a drama queen!

Posted via the Android Central App

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

In other words, use the right cable. Perhaps, he's so caught up in his cable reviews and the recent attention he received that he spoke a little quickly, or too briefly, on the subject of the LG and HTC. I understand he wants to share information about USB C standards but I don't agree with taking jabs at manufacturers who find ways to safely hot-rod the existing format. (if I sound a bit snarky, it's because I see things like this in my line of work where well-meaning bloggers confuse consumers)

Use the right cable and charger and all is good. That's it. This guy's Google plus post is getting blown out of proportion so badly. He's such a drama queen!

Posted via the Android Central App

I disagree that it's being blown out of proportion. You'll note that Qualcomm did not comment on whether or not they are out of spec for USB-C. I think manufacturers adhering to specs is important since it will help the overall ecosystem (like when microUSB became the defacto connector). I also think that informing consumers is important, and Benson has been doing that in spades with his testing and championing of proper use of USB-C.

I also believe that HTC (and LG) know what they're doing and would not purposely hurt the user experience in any meaningful way. But that does NOT mean that it will end up that way, and Benson hedged his bets by simply saying that violating the spec ONE way does not mean it doesn't violate the spec in OTHER (maybe unknown) ways.

Getting a bit on the seedy side, I have to wonder why HTC opted for QC3 instead of USB Power Delivery. I suspect (but obviously can't confirm) that it was a bundle licensing deal. "If you use our chip you have to use QC3" or "If you use our chip we'll give you a huge discount on QC3 and look at how much faster it can charge! That's a better user experience!" Those kinds of things.

I generally prefer for the more "open" standard to win out with things like this, since those are most likely not going to be tied to one particular OEM and there is less risk of any sort of "fragmenting" of the accessory market.

 

[B0WIE]

I disagree that it's being blown out of proportion. You'll note that Qualcomm did not comment on whether or not they are out of spec for USB-C. I think manufacturers adhering to specs is important since it will help the overall ecosystem (like when microUSB became the defacto connector). I also think that informing consumers is important, and Benson has been doing that in spades with his testing and championing of proper use of USB-C.

I also believe that HTC (and LG) know what they're doing and would not purposely hurt the user experience in any meaningful way. But that does NOT mean that it will end up that way, and Benson hedged his bets by simply saying that violating the spec ONE way does not mean it doesn't violate the spec in OTHER (maybe unknown) ways.

Getting a bit on the seedy side, I have to wonder why HTC opted for QC3 instead of USB Power Delivery. I suspect (but obviously can't confirm) that it was a bundle licensing deal. "If you use our chip you have to use QC3" or "If you use our chip we'll give you a huge discount on QC3 and look at how much faster it can charge! That's a better user experience!" Those kinds of things.

I generally prefer for the more "open" standard to win out with things like this, since those are most likely not going to be tied to one particular OEM and there is less risk of any sort of "fragmenting" of the accessory market.

What you're proposing, the "eco-system" for the sake of the echo system, limits progress. Quick Charge is a superior feature, that's why they went with it. They built above spec to make it work. Hooray technology. When Samsung does it, you'll likely see arguments against QC suddenly go mute.

 

[Almeuit]

I will say this from experience .. I just looked for cables reviewed by Benson and used them on my 6P. Never once ran into an issue from a "Benson Approved" cable .

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

What you're proposing, the "eco-system" for the sake of the echo system, limits progress. Quick Charge is a superior feature, that's why they went with it. They built above spec to make it work. Hooray technology. When Samsung does it, you'll likely see arguments against QC suddenly go mute.

How exactly is it limiting progress? Nothing stopped Qualcomm from creating the tech or from OEM'S choosing to use it.

That doesn't mean that it won't cause confusion in the marketplace. It already has judging by threads in this section. It also inherently limits the capability of the device by taking away features that should be present in the device (like fast charging while also transferring data). Those things might not matter RIGHT NOW but people will have this device for quite some time (years for a lot of people).

 

[B0WIE]

How exactly is it limiting progress? Nothing stopped Qualcomm from creating the tech or from OEM'S choosing to use it.

If we limited USC strictly to the spec it was created on, then companies would need to develop entirely new cables and ports for QC and other advancements, which is pointless since they've made it possible by using a robust USB C.

That doesn't mean that it won't cause confusion in the marketplace.

When higher wattage incandescent lightbulbs came out, manufacturers created sockets to handle them using the same format. People figured it out, the world progressed.
Speaker cables can sometimes look identical, but come is all different power ratings.
When I go to fill my car with gas, both diesel and unleaded come from similar looking pumps that sit right beside each other. Yet, people figure it out and there is no marketplace confusion.

QC 3.0 is a fantastic thing and I've no clue why people are so interested in creatively coming up with for hypothetical flaws other than the obvious (which I'll be polite about).

 

[Bearcats98]

If we limited USC strictly to the spec it was created on, then companies would need to develop entirely new cables and ports for QC and other advancements, which is pointless since they've made it possible by using a robust USB C.


When higher wattage incandescent lightbulbs came out, manufacturers created sockets to handle them using the same format. People figured it out, the world progressed.
Speaker cables can sometimes look identical, but come is all different power ratings.
When I go to fill my car with gas, both diesel and unleaded come from similar looking pumps that sit right beside each other. Yet, people figure it out and there is no marketplace confusion.

QC 3.0 is a fantastic thing and I've no clue why people are so interested in creatively coming up with for hypothetical flaws other than the obvious (which I'll be polite about).

I will caveat your car analogy. They had to change the OD of the two nozzles between diesel and gas because people kept putting them in the wrong tank. ;-)

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

If we limited USC strictly to the spec it was created on, then companies would need to develop entirely new cables and ports for QC and other advancements, which is pointless since they've made it possible by using a robust USB C.


When higher wattage incandescent lightbulbs came out, manufacturers created sockets to handle them using the same format. People figured it out, the world progressed.
Speaker cables can sometimes look identical, but come is all different power ratings.
When I go to fill my car with gas, both diesel and unleaded come from similar looking pumps that sit right beside each other. Yet, people figure it out and there is no marketplace confusion.

QC 3.0 is a fantastic thing and I've no clue why people are so interested in creatively coming up with for hypothetical flaws other than the obvious (which I'll be polite about).

It is not a hypothetical flaw that you can't have QC3 and data transfer simultaneously. When will this matter? As soon as PC motherboard makers start supporting USB Power Delivery instead of the proprietary and license-requiring QC3 (mobo makers are extremely cost conscious except at the high-end). Also, Android Auto.

That also applies to any phone that uses microUSB and supports QC2 or some other version of it. But at least on those devices it's not violating the spec for the connector or cable (to my knowledge USB-2 does not have a voltage requirement to be spec compliant). If it does, then it's fair to say other devices also violate a USB spec, but it's also fair to say that there is already a fast charging spec that is ALSO spec compliant with the new standard USB connector that OEM's can use.

I'm not sure why people are so interested in ignoring very real flaws other than the obvious (which I'll be polite about).

 

[Almeuit]

When higher wattage incandescent lightbulbs came out, manufacturers created sockets to handle them using the same format. People figured it out, the world progressed.
Speaker cables can sometimes look identical, but come is all different power ratings.
When I go to fill my car with gas, both diesel and unleaded come from similar looking pumps that sit right beside each other. Yet, people figure it out and there is no marketplace confusion.

IMO .. Comparing a gas pump versus nerd-type tech stuff is a stretch by far. Many aren't as nerdy as us to notice things like this since you have to understand it fully. A gas pump is as simple as "Hey son, that one".

 

[B0WIE]

It is not a hypothetical flaw that you can't have QC3 and data transfer simultaneously. When will this matter? As soon as PC motherboard makers start supporting USB Power Delivery instead of the proprietary and license-requiring QC3 (mobo makers are extremely cost conscious except at the high-end). Also, Android Auto.

That also applies to any phone that uses microUSB and supports QC2 or some other version of it. But at least on those devices it's not violating the spec for the connector or cable (to my knowledge USB-2 does not have a voltage requirement to be spec compliant). If it does, then it's fair to say other devices also violate a USB spec, but it's also fair to say that there is already a fast charging spec that is ALSO spec compliant with the new standard USB connector that OEM's can use.

I'm not sure why people are so interested in ignoring very real flaws other than the obvious (which I'll be polite about).

Again, you're talking about issues that don't exist or take a back seat to the benefits of an incredibly quick charge. I'll happily take QC3 in 2016 vs a slow charge because of a fear about what mobo manufacturers might do someday. No offense intended, but I really don't see anything compelling about your argument so I'll let this rest here.

IMO .. Comparing a gas pump versus nerd-type tech stuff is a stretch by far. Many aren't as nerdy as us to notice things like this since you have to understand it fully. A gas pump is as simple as "Hey son, that one".

People can certainly understand instructions to only use approved cables. As I said, if people can figure out light bulbs and speaker cables, they can figure out phone cables.

 

[Almeuit]

People can certainly understand instructions to only use approved cables. As I said, if people can figure out light bulbs and speaker cables, they can figure out phone cables.

Of course they can if they're told .. but if they hop on Amazon and buy a random cable because it fits and it does damage (due to not having a friend in the "know") -- well that is another story.

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

Again, you're talking about issues that don't exist or take a back seat to the benefits of an incredibly quick charge. I'll happily take QC3 in 2016 vs a slow charge because of a fear about what mobo manufacturers might do someday. No offense intended, but I really don't see anything compelling about your argument so I'll let this rest here.

People can certainly understand instructions to only use approved cables. As I said, if people can figure out light bulbs and speaker cables, they can figure out phone cables.

USB Power Delivery is not slow. It also has no downsides.

You can be in denial, that's fine. The 10 has a functional deficiency compared to other devices with a fast charging technology.

 

[Aquila]

Of course they can if they're told .. but if they hop on Amazon and buy a random cable because it fits and it does damage (due to not having a friend in the "know") -- well that is another story.

This is the problem. No one is informing the general public (as Kevin points out, even most nerds that want to know are confused) and they dont know that there is something they should know. They're not reading manuals and have no way of identifying their ignorance until something goes wrong. Not conforming to the standards is a HUGE mistake and Sammy's decision to roll out microUSB with QC on a 2016 phone compounds the problem by adding more confusion, not only in the public, but among oems about which features to promote, include and support and in which exact manner they choose to do so. This is a really easy concept and standard that oems and cable makers are stumbling all over. If the oems don't understand it, the general public definitely does not understand it. ... Buy as I said earlier, the general public doesn't even know there's something they should understand, let alone understand it.

 

[B0WIE]

USB Power Delivery is not slow. It also has no downsides.

You can be in denial, that's fine. The 10 has a functional deficiency compared to other devices with a fast charging technology.

If you're going to act rude, that tells me you're out of valid points. If QC 3 fails you can feel validated. Until then, it's superior tech and I'm looking forward to it.