Where do our toys come from...

[VidJunky]

I am not an uber political person, and while I am the farthest thing from an Apple fanboy there is, this is not my attempt at getting a dig in on them. It would be naive of myself or any of us to believe this isn't happening with the devices we purchase. It just so happens that Apple is who this story is mostly about. Please just click the link and listen while you're browsing. Here

I never knew the conditions were like this.

 

[xxfallacyxx]

I'm at work so really can't listen to that right now. Without clicking, I'm going to guess...

You've mentioned Apple, and the subject appears to be bad so I'm willing to place my bets on the conditions at the Foxconn Chinese manufacturing plants.

 

[VidJunky]

I'm at work so really can't listen to that right now. Without clicking, I'm going to guess...

You've mentioned Apple, and the subject appears to be bad so I'm willing to place my bets on the conditions at the Foxconn Chinese manufacturing plants.

I don't know when it showed up in my Stitcher queue, I've been a bit behind on my listening, but I couldn't stop listening. Mike Daisey paints a picture that really speaks to me in this piece. It's difficult to imagine but it's like some gruesome scene that once seen can't be unseen.

 

[xxfallacyxx]

Does that mean I was right?

 

[VidJunky]

Does that mean I was right?

Guess I could have said yes.

 

[xxfallacyxx]

Haha would have been more clear, but it's not like your post was completely without point. I agree though, deplorable is a kind word for those conditions.

 

[VidJunky]

I agree though, deplorable is a kind word for those conditions.

Is there even a word for this. Something that combines deplorable, sick, unimaginable, and horrifying. All held together and bound by greed. I know there are other worse things happening out there that probably make this look mild but that story is yet to be told. I once heard a story that talked about sweat shops and how they were better then the alternatives for the people who had to work in them, and I kind of went along with it in a western mind set kind of way. "Yea what would these people do if they couldn't make any money," or "what would their lives be like if they weren't making the higher wage that these places were paying?" I guess the reality is that's partially right but at a very basic level how is this any better? Tied to a job you can't leave. Working and living in the same place with no chance of ever leaving, unless it's horizontally. What kind of life is that? I knew China was oppressive with it's control of the media and internet, but I also have been hearing stories about things changing in China. It's like our media doesn't want to report on it either. It seems like the only time the US is 'let's mind our own business..' is if there's a buck to made or it's not affecting right people.

 

[Dovahkiin]

When your workplace has to install suicide nets in order to keep people from killing themselves, you know your job sucks. I realize that overall Asian temperament is generally more stoic than us in the West, but a labor movement or a union needs to be formed in order for this to stop. And I don't mean crappy unions like we have here, where you pay $300 to join, and then forever pay "dues" for a union "representative" to roll up in a BMW and campaign for his re-election. I mean a full blown labor movement. Protests, work stoppage, and all.
Nintendo, Microsoft, Apple, etc, they'd all collectively crap a huge brick is their products stop being produced.

 

[MrSmith317]

The poverty line is so low in these countries that these people are eeking out an existence the best/only way some of them can. Honestly if you look at it and they actually do get better compensation, working conditions etc...These companies are probably better off moving the work to another country where they'd get better build quality. Then the conditions in these countries would just worsen. Way I see it, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.

 

[crzycrkr]

Is there even a word for this. Something that combines deplorable, sick, unimaginable, and horrifying. All held together and bound by greed. I know there are other worse things happening out there that probably make this look mild but that story is yet to be told. I once heard a story that talked about sweat shops and how they were better then the alternatives for the people who had to work in them, and I kind of went along with it in a western mind set kind of way. "Yea what would these people do if they couldn't make any money," or "what would their lives be like if they weren't making the higher wage that these places were paying?" I guess the reality is that's partially right but at a very basic level how is this any better? Tied to a job you can't leave. Working and living in the same place with no chance of ever leaving, unless it's horizontally. What kind of life is that? I knew China was oppressive with it's control of the media and internet, but I also have been hearing stories about things changing in China. It's like our media doesn't want to report on it either. It seems like the only time the US is 'let's mind our own business..' is if there's a buck to made or it's not affecting right people.

We have to mind our own business when it comes to China. They don't care what we think, and there's not much we can do to them. They, on the other hand, hold about 50%(I believe) of the US debt. We screw with them and they can make our lives very difficult.

That being said, you are seeing a lot of manufactering jobs come back to the US because of the economy. Its all cyclical, and sooner or later the workers in places like China will get conditions up. It takes time though.

 

[Dovahkiin]

We have to mind our own business when it comes to China. They don't care what we think, and there's not much we can do to them. They, on the other hand, hold about 50%(I believe) of the US debt. We screw with them and they can make our lives very difficult.

The percentage of total US Debt held by China is actually around 8. The UK and Brazil also hold relatively large percentages as well. Hell, Saudi Arabia holds around 7% of our economy (in assets & interests) in their hands.
If these countries were to collectively decide to screw us over, we'd be, well, screwed over. When the time comes to call in all debts, that will be the start of World War 3.

 

[crzycrkr]

The percentage of total US Debt held by China is actually around 8. The UK and Brazil also hold relatively large percentages as well. Hell, Saudi Arabia holds around 7% of our economy (in assets & interests) in their hands.
If these countries were to collectively decide to screw us over, we'd be, well, screwed over. When the time comes to call in all debts, that will be the start of World War 3.

You seem to be right. Every website I look at has a different story, and I don't quite understand it completely. Many say 8%, Wikipedia says something like 28%, etc. Makes no matter to my point. There's not a whole hell of a lot we can pressure china with, nor do we want to piss them off

 

[Dovahkiin]

You seem to be right. Every website I look at has a different story, and I don't quite understand it completely. Many say 8%, Wikipedia says something like 28%, etc. Makes no matter to my point. There's not a whole hell of a lot we can pressure china with, nor do we want to piss them off

The higher percentages refer to foreign-held U.S. debt. Our total debt is much, much, more.
China itself isn't in a position to elbow their way through a crowd, either. Much of their work force is concentrated in manufacturing and trading, which come from companies around the globe that decide to penny pinch on labor costs and outsource it. Technically, China should be in the middle of a huge economic boom, but they intentionally hold down the value of the yuan in order to continue attracting more outsourcing. If the yuan was suddenly as strong as the dollar, there wouldn't be any incentive for companies to outsource their labor to China.
So basically, the world could either pressure China into letting the yuan appreciate, or withdraw from their manufacturing plants and see if China's economy and political climate can sustain 1 billion people, with over a third in poverty AND unemployed.

 

[dpham00]

When your workplace has to install suicide nets in order to keep people from killing themselves, you know your job sucks. I realize that overall Asian temperament is generally more stoic than us in the West, but a labor movement or a union needs to be formed in order for this to stop. And I don't mean crappy unions like we have here, where you pay $300 to join, and then forever pay "dues" for a union "representative" to roll up in a BMW and campaign for his re-election. I mean a full blown labor movement. Protests, work stoppage, and all.
Nintendo, Microsoft, Apple, etc, they'd all collectively crap a huge brick is their products stop being produced.

I highly doubt something like that will happen. The reason why companies are building factories in China and other places instead of USA is because of the cost, it is cheaper there. Same reason why Toyota has factories in the USA(overall cost is cheaper). If one factory decides to try to unionize, even if the government there allowed it, then the factory would simply move somewhere else. And if China ends up being too union friendly (yeah right), then the factories would move to other countries that are only slightly more expensive than China now, but with unions, China would start to cost more. China is doing everything it can to keep and increase factories in it's country.

People aren't really forced to work in the factories, in the sense that someone has a gun to their head, but, if they don't work at the factory, then what will those people do? For most, it is better to have a crappy low paying job, then no job at all. It isn't like in the US, where you can stay home and still get government aid. If you don't work in China or other 3rd world countries, you starve. Of course, the stress ends up getting to some people, which is unfortunate.

 

[VidJunky]

You all make good points, but what can be done? NFTA was about the worst thing to happen to the US in my working life. IMO. Out sourcing so many jobs, I don't think has strengthened our country. It seems to me the very people these Co are trying to sell products to are the people they are putting out of work. I understand that it cost more to make products here, but if no one is working who will buy them. Perhaps to save money they should go to a European style work week of 30 to 32 hours with more days off to cut costs, and with more time off people would spend more and really drive up the economy. Drive it up in a real way and not in some unsustainable way like the housing bubble. Really how long did the government think it would be able to subsidize housing prices and hold rates down before it blew up in their face. Now we the regular people have to pay the banks more money to stay in business while they are lowering people's credit, foreclosing on homes, and raising interest rates at will. It just doesn't seem right. And in my opinion it all driven by greed. If these corps made a little less profit would any of them really suffer?

 

[xxfallacyxx]

Make the best product possible, at the best price possible, while paying the highest wages possible.

Now it's:

Find the cheapest reliable parts
Cut costs and overhead by employing people in third world countries who don't mind unsafe factories
Sell the products at ridiculous markup
...
Profit!

 

[crzycrkr]

You all make good points, but what can be done? NFTA was about the worst thing to happen to the US in my working life. IMO. Out sourcing so many jobs, I don't think has strengthened our country. It seems to me the very people these Co are trying to sell products to are the people they are putting out of work. I understand that it cost more to make products here, but if no one is working who will buy them. Perhaps to save money they should go to a European style work week of 30 to 32 hours with more days off to cut costs, and with more time off people would spend more and really drive up the economy. Drive it up in a real way and not in some unsustainable way like the housing bubble. Really how long did the government think it would be able to subsidize housing prices and hold rates down before it blew up in their face. Now we the regular people have to pay the banks more money to stay in business while they are lowering people's credit, foreclosing on homes, and raising interest rates at will. It just doesn't seem right. And in my opinion it all driven by greed. If these corps made a little less profit would any of them really suffer?

How are people going to spend more if they're working less and making less?

Make the best product possible, at the best price possible, while paying the highest wages possible.

Now it's:

Find the cheapest reliable parts
Cut costs and overhead by employing people in third world countries who don't mind unsafe factories
Sell the products at ridiculous markup
...
Profit!

Remember, higher profit leads to higher stock prices. A LOT of the working class have A LOT of money resting on this stock prices. Lower profit and lower stock prices would hurt us just as bad if not worse than high unemployment. All those retirees depending on their portfolio would have to reenter the workforce if stocks got too beat up

 

[VidJunky]

Yes working less would bring home less but paying less would lower over head and should drive prices down. Plus happier people are more productive, and with additional time off people would have more time to enjoy life, and do things like take real vacations where they would spend other money. I may have misspoke when I said more. Of course this wouldn't work if just a few corps did it. It would have to be across the board. And corps would have to be flexible about not milking every cent they can to increase profit. Actually care more about people than money.

 

[crzycrkr]

Yes working less would bring home less but paying less would lower over head and should drive prices down. Plus happier people are more productive, and with additional time off people would have more time to enjoy life, and do things like take real vacations where they would spend other money. I may have misspoke when I said more. Of course this wouldn't work if just a few corps did it. It would have to be across the board. And corps would have to be flexible about not milking every cent they can to increase profit. Actually care more about people than money.

I'm still not quite understanding. Overhead would go down, but so would production. With less product prices would go up. Even if prices somehow stayed the same, people would be bringing home 20-25% less. People can barely get by as it is. Also bear in mind, as I said earlier, the corporations caring about money make a lot of working class people money. Its not just the rich who profit. Millions of people have money in the market. Millions of working class pensions are based on it. If corporations took that view, as much as we would like to think its a good idea, we'd all be screwed.

 

[VidJunky]

1 euro = 1.2714 US dollars
Hours worked per year 2003 - 2010
United States 1800 1802 1799 1800 1798 1792 1768 1778
France - - - - -1533 1561 1557 1536 1556 1560 1554 ..
Germany - - - -1439 1442 1434 1430 1430 1426 1390 1419
Here

Economists often speak of this as revealing different American and European social preferences for work and leisure. In truth, both the employment rate and how long the average person works are explained mainly by political history. Until the late 1970s total hours worked were falling both in Europe and in the USA; since then, total hours worked have continued to fall in the EU-15 but have risen again in the US. Equally, if we look at employment data by age group, Americans join the work force earlier and leave it far later than Europeans. The key to understanding why this has happened is the change in US income distribution over the past 30 years. Since 1979, the bottom 40% of income earners in the US has been treading water, while the bottom 20% has become poorer. US workers have needed to put in more years and longer hours simply to maintain their real income position.

...look at GDP in 2005 per person per hour worked, there is virtually no difference between Germany, France and the US.

Here