Camera how good is it.....really?

TheyStoleMyName

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I did learn some things from that link.

A quote from your hyperlink.

"An example of large versus small pixels and the effects on image quality is illustrated in Figures 4 and 5. Figure 4a and 4b shows the full scene recorded by two cameras set at the same ISO (ISO 400), same f/stop (f/4.5), and same exposure time (1 second). The pixel pitch (the distance from one pixel to the next; the actual pixel area sensitive to light is slightly smaller) is 8.2 microns for the large pixel camera (Canon 1D mark II) versus the small pixel camera (Canon S70). Both cameras have almost identical read noise at ISO 400: 5.6 electrons for the 1D Mark II and 4.3 electrons for the S70, thus the S70 has a slight advantage! But despite the read noise advantage, the larger pixels of the big camera collects so much more light per pixel that the image quality is much better than the small pixel camera (Figure 5). The light is delivered by the lens, and the lens is the real reason the large pixels are able to collect more light. "

If you look at the photos of the books between the two cameras with different pixel sizes you can see that the camera with the small pixel size has a more lighted photo compared to the larger pixel sized camera. You brought up a bunch of crap about picture noise, iso, shutter speed, and what not. I may not know every little detail about digital cameras but i do know that there is a lot more to a more well lighted photo than just pixel size. You went on this wild rant about everything you know and you still did not prove a point at all. I may not have been 100% correct with my answer and neither were you. There is a trade off at pixel size to resolution, to color quality and light quality at certain resolutions. The larger the pixel size, the less color and light quality you have because the pixels are larger and only contain one of either red, green, or blue in each pixel or else you will have a grey scale picture. Smaller pixels show more detailed red, green, blue light captured in the pixels because of more pixels which equals a better resolution. But at the same time higher pixel count does not mean anything by any standards. A larger pixel sizes does not mean you will have a more lighted photo but more light can be collected to a viewing stand point with color (not the brightness of a photo) before zooming. With a large pixel when a photo is taken, will collect more light to that pixel, which will give that pixel an energy level. But since its either red, green, or blue for one pixel it does not mean the photo will be brighter since there are other factors along with determining how bright the photo will be.

"Because good digital cameras are photon noise limited, the larger pixels will always have higher signal-to-noise ratios unless someone finds a way around the laws of physics, which is highly unlikely. Important to remember, however, is larger pixels enable more light to be collected, but it is the lens that delivers the light. An analogy is buckets of water. A large bucket will hold more water than a small bucket. But if you want to collect more water in a given time, one must turn the faucet on higher. So too with cameras and lenses: the bigger lens collects more light and delivers it to the sensor."

True with larger pixels there is less dead space between them. But if you want to compare buckets to how light and pixels work, its a bad analogy. Light is basically instantaneous, there is no waiting around for it to fill a bucket. A smaller pixel will receive the same amount of light per size ratio as a larger pixel. The analogy works in a sense that the larger pixel will require more light ( or longer exposure) to fill that pixels energy rating but at the same time a small pixel will be filled quicker with the same exposure given the same lens. Either way it is put, any pixel size to the ability of a pixel to collect more light to have a more well lit photo is all determined by other factors. If you have two squares that are covered from a light source that is larger than both, ones 1cm square and the other is a 1in square. Light is constant and always there. Once the cover is removed, the light will fill the squares at the same time because each has its own surface area that is being filled by a light source that is larger than each square. This is how pixels works, its not rain going into a bucket. The longer the light is there, the brighter the image will be. In a sense the brightness should be exactly the same in each pixel unless other factors are involved.
 

SCjRqrQCnBQ19QoYCtdl

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I did learn some things from that link.

A quote from your hyperlink.

"An example of large versus small pixels and the effects on image quality is illustrated in Figures 4 and 5. Figure 4a and 4b shows the full scene recorded by two cameras set at the same ISO (ISO 400), same f/stop (f/4.5), and same exposure time (1 second). The pixel pitch (the distance from one pixel to the next; the actual pixel area sensitive to light is slightly smaller) is 8.2 microns for the large pixel camera (Canon 1D mark II) versus the small pixel camera (Canon S70). Both cameras have almost identical read noise at ISO 400: 5.6 electrons for the 1D Mark II and 4.3 electrons for the S70, thus the S70 has a slight advantage! But despite the read noise advantage, the larger pixels of the big camera collects so much more light per pixel that the image quality is much better than the small pixel camera (Figure 5). The light is delivered by the lens, and the lens is the real reason the large pixels are able to collect more light. "

If you look at the photos of the books between the two cameras with different pixel sizes you can see that the camera with the small pixel size has a more lighted photo compared to the larger pixel sized camera. You brought up a bunch of crap about picture noise, iso, shutter speed, and what not. I may not know every little detail about digital cameras but i do know that there is a lot more to a more well lighted photo than just pixel size. You went on this wild rant about everything you know and you still did not prove a point at all. I may not have been 100% correct with my answer and neither were you. There is a trade off at pixel size to resolution, to color quality and light quality at certain resolutions. The larger the pixel size, the less color and light quality you have because the pixels are larger and only contain one of either red, green, or blue in each pixel or else you will have a grey scale picture. Smaller pixels show more detailed red, green, blue light captured in the pixels because of more pixels which equals a better resolution. But at the same time higher pixel count does not mean anything by any standards. A larger pixel sizes does not mean you will have a more lighted photo but more light can be collected to a viewing stand point with color (not the brightness of a photo) before zooming. With a large pixel when a photo is taken, will collect more light to that pixel, which will give that pixel an energy level. But since its either red, green, or blue for one pixel it does not mean the photo will be brighter since there are other factors along with determining how bright the photo will be.

"Because good digital cameras are photon noise limited, the larger pixels will always have higher signal-to-noise ratios unless someone finds a way around the laws of physics, which is highly unlikely. Important to remember, however, is larger pixels enable more light to be collected, but it is the lens that delivers the light. An analogy is buckets of water. A large bucket will hold more water than a small bucket. But if you want to collect more water in a given time, one must turn the faucet on higher. So too with cameras and lenses: the bigger lens collects more light and delivers it to the sensor."

True with larger pixels there is less dead space between them. But if you want to compare buckets to how light and pixels work, its a bad analogy. Light is basically instantaneous, there is no waiting around for it to fill a bucket. A smaller pixel will receive the same amount of light per size ratio as a larger pixel. The analogy works in a sense that the larger pixel will require more light ( or longer exposure) to fill that pixels energy rating but at the same time a small pixel will be filled quicker with the same exposure given the same lens. Either way it is put, any pixel size to the ability of a pixel to collect more light to have a more well lit photo is all determined by other factors. If you have two squares that are covered from a light source that is larger than both, ones 1cm square and the other is a 1in square. Light is constant and always there. Once the cover is removed, the light will fill the squares at the same time because each has its own surface area that is being filled by a light source that is larger than each square. This is how pixels works, its not rain going into a bucket. The longer the light is there, the brighter the image will be. In a sense the brightness should be exactly the same in each pixel unless other factors are involved.

I am not going to argue with you based on your suppositions.

If you think pixels work differently and want others to believe it please provide a credible source. Not just calling my information crap

.

Posted via Android Central App
 

madlaw1071

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Spent some time at beach with the One (well, and my family) yesterday. Took some random shots with no real purpose. Was blown away when I went home and opened the gallery to see that a Zoe had automatically been created of my pics even though I didn't take any Zoe shots. Now THAT was cool and something the S4 doesn't do. I sent the link via text to my wife and kids and now we all have an amazing highlight real from our day at the beach. Haven't seen the pics on anything other than the phone yet but color me impressed by Zoe.
 

mrbootcrm

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Spent some time at beach with the One (well, and my family) yesterday. Took some random shots with no real purpose. Was blown away when I went home and opened the gallery to see that a Zoe had automatically been created of my pics even though I didn't take any Zoe shots. Now THAT was cool and something the S4 doesn't do. I sent the link via text to my wife and kids and now we all have an amazing highlight real from our day at the beach. Haven't seen the pics on anything other than the phone yet but color me impressed by Zoe.

Take some zoes next. They really bring the highlight videos to life. The phone will cut and splice the action in time with the music. I'd say the single best selling point for the average user is highlight videos. Once someone sees how fun they are AND how is takes basically no user effort they seem to be sold.
Here's the first one I made at a baseball game with my friend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7XFN0wJbWE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 

Kevin OQuinn

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I did learn some things from that link.

A quote from your hyperlink.

"An example of large versus small pixels and the effects on image quality is illustrated in Figures 4 and 5. Figure 4a and 4b shows the full scene recorded by two cameras set at the same ISO (ISO 400), same f/stop (f/4.5), and same exposure time (1 second). The pixel pitch (the distance from one pixel to the next; the actual pixel area sensitive to light is slightly smaller) is 8.2 microns for the large pixel camera (Canon 1D mark II) versus the small pixel camera (Canon S70). Both cameras have almost identical read noise at ISO 400: 5.6 electrons for the 1D Mark II and 4.3 electrons for the S70, thus the S70 has a slight advantage! But despite the read noise advantage, the larger pixels of the big camera collects so much more light per pixel that the image quality is much better than the small pixel camera (Figure 5). The light is delivered by the lens, and the lens is the real reason the large pixels are able to collect more light. "

If you look at the photos of the books between the two cameras with different pixel sizes you can see that the camera with the small pixel size has a more lighted photo compared to the larger pixel sized camera. You brought up a bunch of crap about picture noise, iso, shutter speed, and what not. I may not know every little detail about digital cameras but i do know that there is a lot more to a more well lighted photo than just pixel size. You went on this wild rant about everything you know and you still did not prove a point at all. I may not have been 100% correct with my answer and neither were you. There is a trade off at pixel size to resolution, to color quality and light quality at certain resolutions. The larger the pixel size, the less color and light quality you have because the pixels are larger and only contain one of either red, green, or blue in each pixel or else you will have a grey scale picture. Smaller pixels show more detailed red, green, blue light captured in the pixels because of more pixels which equals a better resolution. But at the same time higher pixel count does not mean anything by any standards. A larger pixel sizes does not mean you will have a more lighted photo but more light can be collected to a viewing stand point with color (not the brightness of a photo) before zooming. With a large pixel when a photo is taken, will collect more light to that pixel, which will give that pixel an energy level. But since its either red, green, or blue for one pixel it does not mean the photo will be brighter since there are other factors along with determining how bright the photo will be.

"Because good digital cameras are photon noise limited, the larger pixels will always have higher signal-to-noise ratios unless someone finds a way around the laws of physics, which is highly unlikely. Important to remember, however, is larger pixels enable more light to be collected, but it is the lens that delivers the light. An analogy is buckets of water. A large bucket will hold more water than a small bucket. But if you want to collect more water in a given time, one must turn the faucet on higher. So too with cameras and lenses: the bigger lens collects more light and delivers it to the sensor."

True with larger pixels there is less dead space between them. But if you want to compare buckets to how light and pixels work, its a bad analogy. Light is basically instantaneous, there is no waiting around for it to fill a bucket. A smaller pixel will receive the same amount of light per size ratio as a larger pixel. The analogy works in a sense that the larger pixel will require more light ( or longer exposure) to fill that pixels energy rating but at the same time a small pixel will be filled quicker with the same exposure given the same lens. Either way it is put, any pixel size to the ability of a pixel to collect more light to have a more well lit photo is all determined by other factors. If you have two squares that are covered from a light source that is larger than both, ones 1cm square and the other is a 1in square. Light is constant and always there. Once the cover is removed, the light will fill the squares at the same time because each has its own surface area that is being filled by a light source that is larger than each square. This is how pixels works, its not rain going into a bucket. The longer the light is there, the brighter the image will be. In a sense the brightness should be exactly the same in each pixel unless other factors are involved.

You're forgetting that light isn't white and has wavelength. A larger pixel will capture more of those "waves" than a smaller one. The goal of a camera is to accurately capture what you see with your eyes, right? If you can't capture enough information because of certain limitations (pixel size for example) then you won't get anything close to representing what you see with your eyes.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 

Kevin OQuinn

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Spent some time at beach with the One (well, and my family) yesterday. Took some random shots with no real purpose. Was blown away when I went home and opened the gallery to see that a Zoe had automatically been created of my pics even though I didn't take any Zoe shots. Now THAT was cool and something the S4 doesn't do. I sent the link via text to my wife and kids and now we all have an amazing highlight real from our day at the beach. Haven't seen the pics on anything other than the phone yet but color me impressed by Zoe.

It has impressed every single person I've ever shown it to (Highlights that is).

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 

TheyStoleMyName

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I am not going to argue with you based on your suppositions.

If you think pixels work differently and want others to believe it please provide a credible source. Not just calling my information crap

.

Posted via Android Central App

I did not call your information crap. I said u did not provide information on how a larger pixel absorbs more light to create a better lit photo. U provided information on how other factors create a more lit photo. In a sense neither of us provided information on if a larger sensor will in fact absorb more light to create a brighter photo.

Its like using the analogy of a rain gauge. It takes more rain drops to fill a larger diameter opening instrument and less drops to fill a smaller diameter one but still come out to the same measurement.

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JHBThree

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I did not call your information crap. I said u did not provide information on how a larger pixel absorbs more light to create a better lit photo. U provided information on how other factors create a more lit photo. In a sense neither of us provided information on if a larger sensor will in fact absorb more light to create a brighter photo.

Its like using the analogy of a rain gauge. It takes more rain drops to fill a larger diameter opening instrument and less drops to fill a smaller diameter one but still come out to the same measurement.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Android Central Forums

Oh really?

You brought up a bunch of crap about picture noise, iso, shutter speed, and what not.


Warpdrive, is that you?

Oh, and your posts (the above and previous ones) are wrong. It is basic knowledge that larger pixels absorb more light. It is a basic tenet of how digital cameras work, and arguing otherwise is ignoring the physics of the technology. I suggest you educate yourself outside of here on the technology.

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SenseMonkey

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Don't forget the average user isn't a professional photographer so they'll more than likely like the output quality of the camera so it's all ok guys.. :thumbup::D

Courtesy of My LT3VO :D
 

SCjRqrQCnBQ19QoYCtdl

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I did not call your information crap. I said u did not provide information on how a larger pixel absorbs more light to create a better lit photo. U provided information on how other factors create a more lit photo. In a sense neither of us provided information on if a larger sensor will in fact absorb more light to create a brighter photo.

Its like using the analogy of a rain gauge. It takes more rain drops to fill a larger diameter opening instrument and less drops to fill a smaller diameter one but still come out to the same measurement.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Android Central Forums


I seem to recall the word crap being thrown around. I will have to look at it when I get home.

This has all already been discussed several times in this thread. Unfortunately people come in to the thread late and don't have benefit of all the prior posts if they don't read the whole thread, but this was never intended to be a thread about pixel size, and explaining over and over again becomes tiresome.

However, just realize that larger pixels are more sensitive then are smaller pixels. Search it on Google, and you will find many sources to confirm that.

Since they are more sensitive, they have a higher signal to noise ratio. In low light conditions larger pixels need less gain, basically amplification, to get a usable image. Less gain means less noise. Less noise means you can use a higher iso with a faster shutter with similar noise to a sensor with smaller pixels, or alternative use the same settings and get less noise in the image.

In the end there are many benefits to larger pixels. Note that the pixels of the one are still pretty small compared to quality point and shoot camera, an very small compared to dslrs. So basically we should be talking about the costs of very very small pixels in a camera like that in the s4 vs. small, but somewhat less small pixels of the one.

Posted via Android Central App
 

mistyisland

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Spent some time at beach with the One (well, and my family) yesterday. Took some random shots with no real purpose. Was blown away when I went home and opened the gallery to see that a Zoe had automatically been created of my pics even though I didn't take any Zoe shots. Now THAT was cool and something the S4 doesn't do. I sent the link via text to my wife and kids and now we all have an amazing highlight real from our day at the beach. Haven't seen the pics on anything other than the phone yet but color me impressed by Zoe.

Read your post and it made me want to try to see my highlight videos on the tv thru the media link. I guess HTC doesn't want us to do that, because that function is not activated. The videos are just kind of darkened out, and only the pictures will play. It sure would be nice if we could play on something else besides the phone.
 

TheyStoleMyName

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I seem to recall the word crap being thrown around. I will have to look at it when I get home.

This has all already been discussed several times in this thread. Unfortunately people come in to the thread late and don't have benefit of all the prior posts if they don't read the whole thread, but this was never intended to be a thread about pixel size, and explaining over and over again becomes tiresome.

However, just realize that larger pixels are more sensitive then are smaller pixels. Search it on Google, and you will find many sources to confirm that.

Since they are more sensitive, they have a higher signal to noise ratio. In low light conditions larger pixels need less gain, basically amplification, to get a usable image. Less gain means less noise. Less noise means you can use a higher iso with a faster shutter with similar noise to a sensor with smaller pixels, or alternative use the same settings and get less noise in the image.

In the end there are many benefits to larger pixels. Note that the pixels of the one are still pretty small compared to quality point and shoot camera, an very small compared to dslrs. So basically we should be talking about the costs of very very small pixels in a camera like that in the s4 vs. small, but somewhat less small pixels of the one.

Posted via Android Central App

Yes I used the word crap but not about it knowledge, but about other things that did not pertain to the topic at hand. But I never bashed what u know. Also I never disagreed with u about image noise and picture quality. I'm just arguing the point of pixel size and sensitivity to light and how it's displayed if the picture is brighter due to pixel size. I found a lot of articles claiming both our points but not the exact information I was looking, for on if a larger pixel requires more light (energy) to make it have the same energy rating as a smaller one.
 

JHBThree

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Yes I used the word crap but not about it knowledge, but about other things that did not pertain to the topic at hand. But I never bashed what u know. Also I never disagreed with u about image noise and picture quality. I'm just arguing the point of pixel size and sensitivity to light and how it's displayed if the picture is brighter due to pixel size. I found a lot of articles claiming both our points but not the exact information I was looking, for on if a larger pixel requires more light (energy) to make it have the same energy rating as a smaller one.

I don't believe he ever claimed that larger pixels created a brighter picture. What he did say is that larger pixels absorb more light and are more sensitive.
 

SCjRqrQCnBQ19QoYCtdl

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Yes I used the word crap but not about it knowledge, but about other things that did not pertain to the topic at hand. But I never bashed what u know. Also I never disagreed with u about image noise and picture quality. I'm just arguing the point of pixel size and sensitivity to light and how it's displayed if the picture is brighter due to pixel size. I found a lot of articles claiming both our points but not the exact information I was looking, for on if a larger pixel requires more light (energy) to make it have the same energy rating as a smaller one.

The way I understand it is that the part of a pixel that measures the amount of light received is substantially the same regardless of size. A large pixel does not require more light to activate, so to speak. That is why they are more sensitive. if they are 3x as big, they receive 3x as much light but only need the same 1x as a smaller pixel. That is probably a big simplification, but it is the general truth.

So, as for pixel count on a give size sensor, you have a trade off you can make between more resolution and more sensitivity.

More pixels gives better resolution, at the expense of low light performance, The benefits of ever smaller resolution are limited by diffraction and the resolving power of the lens. Bigger, heavier, more expensive lenses are able to resolve finer detail, but cheap, small, light lenses are generally what we have in cell phone cameras, so it is a bit difficult to believe that a 13mp sensor in a cell phone is really providing 13mp of resolution.

Less pixel give betterr light sensitivity, at the expense of resolution. The benefits of ever larger pixels are again limited-- you need a certain amount of resolution to display or print. Since most displays are less than 2mp, so having more is not helping unless you are croping, zooming or printing.

Posted via Android Central App
 

Jerry Hildenbrand

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The way I understand it is that the part of a pixel that measures the amount of light received is substantially the same regardless of size. A large pixel does not require more light to activate, so to speak. That is why they are more sensitive. if they are 3x as big, they receive 3x as much light but only need the same 1x as a smaller pixel. That is probably a big simplification, but it is the general truth.

There is a minimum amount of light required to activate a photovoltaic surface.
There is a maximum amount of light a surface can receive (whether reflected or absorbed, or translated into a digital representation of that light)
When you increase the surface area of the photovoltaic sensor, you do not increase the minimum required amount of light to turn the sensor on.
When you increase the surface area of the photovoltaic sensor, you do increase the maximum amount able to be received per sensor, due to increased surface area.

4 small pixels will get 400% more detail than 1 larger pixel that takes up the same surface area, provided the light is strong enough to provide data to all four.
1 larger pixel (if the same size as 4 smaller ones) will absorb, reflect, or digitize 400% more light "data" as any single smaller pixel in the same surface area.
When light is below the minimum threshold of photovoltaic activity on one smaller pixel, it may fall above the minimum when gathered across 400% more surface area.

Let's say you need 1 unit of light to electrically activate a pixel.
Four 1 inch pixels each need 1 unit of light to turn on, evenly distributed across four square inches.
One 4 inch pixel only needs 1 unit of light to turn on, at any point in the four square inches.

If there is plenty of light, all four small pixels turn on and give image data to the camera software. So will one 4-inch pixel, but the 4 smaller ones provide 4x the amount of image data. This gives the camera software 400% more data to use to assemble the final jpg image.

Conversely, say there is only enough light to turn on 1 (25%) of the smaller pixels. This would still be enough light to turn on the one larger pixel. The 4 small pixels would give 25% correct data, and the remaining 75% would need to be calculated. This may or may not be possible, and you'll either not be able to take the picture, or it will consist of 75% noise across those 4 pixels. The one large pixel can still give a 100% amount of data to the camera software.

One is not better than the other, they just work very differently. HTC is betting that most users will be better served with a camera that they can pull out of their pocket, and quickly take a relatively "good" image under most conditions, with faster focusing and exposure calculations. Samsung is betting on the opposite, that people would rather need better lighting and more time to capture the image, but the results can be much more clear and have a much finer resolution.
 

TheyStoleMyName

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There is a minimum amount of light required to activate a photovoltaic surface.
There is a maximum amount of light a surface can receive (whether reflected or absorbed, or translated into a digital representation of that light)
When you increase the surface area of the photovoltaic sensor, you do not increase the minimum required amount of light to turn the sensor on.
When you increase the surface area of the photovoltaic sensor, you do increase the maximum amount able to be received per sensor, due to increased surface area.

4 small pixels will get 400% more detail than 1 larger pixel that takes up the same surface area, provided the light is strong enough to provide data to all four.
1 larger pixel (if the same size as 4 smaller ones) will absorb, reflect, or digitize 400% more light "data" as any single smaller pixel in the same surface area.
When light is below the minimum threshold of photovoltaic activity on one smaller pixel, it may fall above the minimum when gathered across 400% more surface area.

Let's say you need 1 unit of light to electrically activate a pixel.
Four 1 inch pixels each need 1 unit of light to turn on, evenly distributed across four square inches.
One 4 inch pixel only needs 1 unit of light to turn on, at any point in the four square inches.

If there is plenty of light, all four small pixels turn on and give image data to the camera software. So will one 4-inch pixel, but the 4 smaller ones provide 4x the amount of image data. This gives the camera software 400% more data to use to assemble the final jpg image.

Conversely, say there is only enough light to turn on 1 (25%) of the smaller pixels. This would still be enough light to turn on the one larger pixel. The 4 small pixels would give 25% correct data, and the remaining 75% would need to be calculated. This may or may not be possible, and you'll either not be able to take the picture, or it will consist of 75% noise across those 4 pixels. The one large pixel can still give a 100% amount of data to the camera software.

One is not better than the other, they just work very differently. HTC is betting that most users will be better served with a camera that they can pull out of their pocket, and quickly take a relatively "good" image under most conditions, with faster focusing and exposure calculations. Samsung is betting on the opposite, that people would rather need better lighting and more time to capture the image, but the results can be much more clear and have a much finer resolution.

Just for verification doesn't each pixel have a rating for the amount of light (enegry) intensity that the pixel receives to give it a shade?
 

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