From now on, Nexus phones will come with the bloatware

[Kevin OQuinn]

So Kevin, what's our solution then? We force Google to provide a product and service for free so other people can make money?

That's the answer? You punish success by making them work for free? Get out of here with that crap.

LOL Google already gives it away for free. They literally don't charge for use of Android or the Play Store. That's the crux of the current discussion a few of us are having.

@all

I would love to see the analytics around what pre-installed Google apps are actually used by people.

My argument is based around giving OEM's the choice of what apps to include on their devices and how widgets and folders get placed on the home screen. The same people that argue FOR choice when it comes to storage capacities and hardware options are the same people that are perfectly fine with Google actively limiting choice when it comes to OEM's and what to include on their devices. It's about how much influence a company should have over the OS they make when they are by far the market leader in their respective market.

I'm not going to get into the semantics of what is/isn't bloat again. We've established that the definition is different depending on who you talk to.

The solution is to just let OEM's choose what apps are pre-installed, with maybe a few exceptions. Solid arguments can be made that Google App (search) and Chrome can be required to be installed. People reasonably expect to be able to perform searches and browse the web, and many OEM's stopped making their own web browsers because of Chrome. At the same time, an argument could be made that an OEM might want to use Bing as the default search engine/widget on their device. Why should they not be allowed to do that? Why did Google effectively ban the use of competing location services providers in the early days of Android?

Another solution would be to require OEM's to include AN app for each expected function. For example, "you're required to have an SMS app" and then the OEM chooses which one. Same for email, etc. Perhaps most OEM's would still choose the Google app (like HTC did with the 10 in a lot of cases), but perhaps they would not (maybe Samsung feels their own apps are better for their users).

All of this is separate from the Play Store, which obviously has to be included to be competitive.

 

[mavrrick]

Well that does appear to be a problem. I can't seem to find anything stating what it means to get a license as a user and if simply having a device that should have it is enough. So that is clearly a grey area. Unfortunately that is only made a bit more confusing with how common practice it is in some ways.

 

[tr-1]

LOL Google already gives it away for free. They literally don't charge for use of Android or the Play Store. That's the crux of the current discussion a few of us are having.

@all

I would love to see the analytics around what pre-installed Google apps are actually used by people.

My argument is based around giving OEM's the choice of what apps to include on their devices and how widgets and folders get placed on the home screen. The same people that argue FOR choice when it comes to storage capacities and hardware options are the same people that are perfectly fine with Google actively limiting choice when it comes to OEM's and what to include on their devices. It's about how much influence a company should have over the OS they make when they are by far the market leader in their respective market.

I'm not going to get into the semantics of what is/isn't bloat again. We've established that the definition is different depending on who you talk to.

The solution is to just let OEM's choose what apps are pre-installed, with maybe a few exceptions. Solid arguments can be made that Google App (search) and Chrome can be required to be installed. People reasonably expect to be able to perform searches and browse the web, and many OEM's stopped making their own web browsers because of Chrome. At the same time, an argument could be made that an OEM might want to use Bing as the default search engine/widget on their device. Why should they not be allowed to do that? Why did Google effectively ban the use of competing location services providers in the early days of Android?

Another solution would be to require OEM's to include AN app for each expected function. For example, "you're required to have an SMS app" and then the OEM chooses which one. Same for email, etc. Perhaps most OEM's would still choose the Google app (like HTC did with the 10 in a lot of cases), but perhaps they would not (maybe Samsung feels their own apps are better for their users).

All of this is separate from the Play Store, which obviously has to be included to be competitive.

I honestly don't understand if you are serious or just screwing with us. Google isn't forcing anyone to partner with them. If OEM doesn't want to follow Google's approved "path" then they can do WHATEVER they want and install WHATEVER apps/services they want. And there are many famous examples (Amazon, cyanogen) and less famous in Western world (all kinds of Asian variants). Just don't expect Google to directly support you in any way. Why? Because you are not supporting Google by going with Google's "approved" path. And it's not like Google finished developing Android 5 years ago, put down pencils and now just collecting dividends. Google is spending hundreds of millions of $ to support Android! Heck, if it wasn't for Android/Google, most of these OEMs wouldn't even exist today.

So please, explain how this is somehow not fair.

 

[mavrrick]

All of this is separate from the Play Store, which obviously has to be included to be competitive.

This is the problem they aren't separate from the playstore. The playstore requires google play services to function. The other question is who decides what apps are needed and what are not.

I am not advocating for the OEM to not have a choice. They do, either load Google play services or don't. If they don't they need to provide the alternative solutions and deal with all of the management and responsibilities of running those platforms. So far the only company i have seen come close to that is Samsung. They could effectively ditch all but mapping services of google and probably provide all of the same services.

 

[vzwuser76]

@Kevin oQuinn and @vzwuser76

Something else that you both are missing is that just because the Google Suite of apps is needed for the Playstore to be loaded doesn't mean it isn't accessible to a user of a device if it doesn't come with it. If either of you are familiar with loading of custom roms or Cynogenmod you would also be familiar with the fact there are many occasions that the Google services suite is loaded by the user after the fact. There is nothing preventing a manufacture from providing a phone without Google services and allowing users load it. I have a GK802 Mini PC stick that i loaded the Gapps APK on. I have load the Gapps apk on my old captivate when running cynogen mod. I most recently loaded it on a laptop i put REMIX OS on.

Here is the better question. Would users want it without google services? I suspect no. in that reguard it is foolish to complain about the presense of google services when we also demand their presence to buy a product. Part of the problem is these apps are in many ways tightly integrated. So it isn't like trying to buy office and not wanting word. It is like buying Outlook and not wanting to have it have a contact list because you only use it for email.

The problem isn't if the users want Google services or not, it's that the OEMs don't want to load Google's services on their devices, and instead want their own apps in place, or apps from Google's competition that they get paid to preinstall on their devices. The only sticking point is they also want access to the Playstore. Essentially they want all Google has to offer for free, but don't want to abide by the guidelines Google put out to let them have the stuff for free.

Cynogenmod is one of the more vocal of the groups that want access to the Playstore without pre-installing any of Google's apps. What I don't get is how all of these groups feel that they're entitled to the Playstore. The Playstore is not now nor has it ever been part of AOSP, which is the only open source version of Android. The version of ANDROID on Nexus devices is not open source because it has proprietary services on it (the Playstore and Google's service apps). I might agree with some people on this if AOSP had ever had the Playstore included with it, but it never was. But yet everyone thinks that it should be accessible to anyone who wants it. So far the only reasoning I've heard on here for the reasoning why everyone should have access to the Playstore is that they need it to be competitive. How is that Google's problem? They've offered a solution, preinstall their apps and you can have it for free. If you don't want to do that, why should they offer you their property for free? Google pays to maintain and secure the Playstore, they shouldn't be doing it for free.

Personally, I think they should switch to a licensing system. OEMs pay so much for Android and the Playstore, and they get a discounted rate if they preinstall Google's apps. Then there is an option for OEMs to have access to the Playstore without having to preinstall Google's apps.

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

I honestly don't understand if you are serious or just screwing with us. Google isn't forcing anyone to partner with them. If OEM doesn't want to follow Google's approved "path" then they can do WHATEVER they want and install WHATEVER apps/services they want. And there are many famous examples (Amazon, cyanogen) and less famous in Western world (all kinds of Asian variants). Just don't expect Google to directly support you in any way. Why? Because you are not supporting Google by going with Google's "approved" path. And it's not like Google finished developing Android 5 years ago, put down pencils and now just collecting dividends. Google is spending hundreds of millions of $ to support Android! Heck, if it wasn't for Android/Google, most of these OEMs wouldn't even exist today.

So please, explain how this is somehow not fair.

Similar to the way Intel was rumored to be getting device wins....by giving chips away for free. Of course OEM's are going to use what is free as long as it isn't completely terrible. If Android never existed I suspect that Blackberry and Windows Phone would have remained more relevant competitors.

The problem isn't if the users want Google services or not, it's that the OEMs don't want to load Google's services on their devices, and instead want their own apps in place, or apps from Google's competition that they get paid to preinstall on their devices. The only sticking point is they also want access to the Playstore. Essentially they want all Google has to offer for free, but don't want to abide by the guidelines Google put out to let them have the stuff for free.

Cynogenmod is one of the more vocal of the groups that want access to the Playstore without pre-installing any of Google's apps. What I don't get is how all of these groups feel that they're entitled to the Playstore. The Playstore is not now nor has it ever been part of AOSP, which is the only open source version of Android. The version of ANDROID on Nexus devices is not open source because it has proprietary services on it (the Playstore and Google's service apps). I might agree with some people on this if AOSP had ever had the Playstore included with it, but it never was. But yet everyone thinks that it should be accessible to anyone who wants it. So far the only reasoning I've heard on here for the reasoning why everyone should have access to the Playstore is that they need it to be competitive. How is that Google's problem? They've offered a solution, preinstall their apps and you can have it for free. If you don't want to do that, why should they offer you their property for free? Google pays to maintain and secure the Playstore, they shouldn't be doing it for free.

Personally, I think they should switch to a licensing system. OEMs pay so much for Android and the Playstore, and they get a discounted rate if they preinstall Google's apps. Then there is an option for OEMs to have access to the Playstore without having to preinstall Google's apps.

Your suggestion doesn't sound half bad actually.

The problem is that Google isn't giving OEM's any options with what they can load and there are no alternative options for them to use that would keep them competitive in the marketplace. It's literally "you do what we want or you can't compete". And yes, there are always corner cases to this. China is a poor example though, since the Chinese government is the reason Google can't bring the Play Store there in an official capacity.
________________________________________________________________

I feel like the people that are arguing against OEM's having options are choosing to be blind to the fact that Google holds all the cards and that they can, in fact, do things that are "evil". The very same people that say "Apple installs apps that can't be uninstalled and pre-installs so many apps that people don't use" are the same people defending Google when they do exactly the same thing. Only difference is Apple CAN do that because every part of the product is made by them and not partners. Let's say Apple did allow other OEM's make iOS devices, but dictated pre-installed apps and the "first home screen" app icon grid. Nobody would be ok with that, and to pretend that you (nobody specifically, but people in general) would be is disingenuous.

 

[mavrrick]

The problem isn't if the users want Google services or not, it's that the OEMs don't want to load Google's services on their devices, and instead want their own apps in place, or apps from Google's competition that they get paid to preinstall on their devices. The only sticking point is they also want access to the Playstore. Essentially they want all Google has to offer for free, but don't want to abide by the guidelines Google put out to let them have the stuff for free.

Cynogenmod is one of the more vocal of the groups that want access to the Playstore without pre-installing any of Google's apps. What I don't get is how all of these groups feel that they're entitled to the Playstore. The Playstore is not now nor has it ever been part of AOSP, which is the only open source version of Android. The version of ANDROID on Nexus devices is not open source because it has proprietary services on it (the Playstore and Google's service apps). I might agree with some people on this if AOSP had ever had the Playstore included with it, but it never was. But yet everyone thinks that it should be accessible to anyone who wants it. So far the only reasoning I've heard on here for the reasoning why everyone should have access to the Playstore is that they need it to be competitive. How is that Google's problem? They've offered a solution, preinstall their apps and you can have it for free. If you don't want to do that, why should they offer you their property for free? Google pays to maintain and secure the Playstore, they shouldn't be doing it for free.

Personally, I think they should switch to a licensing system. OEMs pay so much for Android and the Playstore, and they get a discounted rate if they preinstall Google's apps. Then there is an option for OEMs to have access to the Playstore without having to preinstall Google's apps.

But the problem is the playstore is part of google play services. You can't have one without the other.

Part of the problem is that we are so ecosystem focused no a days. I would love to see a day that no matter what hardware I bought i could load any app store and run any app on whatever device I want. That will never happen though without legislation and a major legal battle.

 

[mavrrick]

I feel like the people that are arguing against OEM's having options are choosing to be blind to the fact that Google holds all the cards and that they can, in fact, do things that are "evil". The very same people that say "Apple installs apps that can't be uninstalled and pre-installs so many apps that people don't use" are the same people defending Google when they do exactly the same thing. Only difference is Apple CAN do that because every part of the product is made by them and not partners. Let's say Apple did allow other OEM's make iOS devices, but dictated pre-installed apps and the "first home screen" app icon grid. Nobody would be ok with that, and to pretend that you (nobody specifically, but people in general) would be is disingenuous.

When i got my GS7e google services were far from prominent. The most prominent thing was the play store on the main screen.

I am not arguing against OEM's. I am saying they actually have alternatives and believe they should look at those instead of demanding google give them free access to what google spent time cultivating a long time ago. To say no one can create a alternative to Google's app store is foolish. It may take time to get developers interested in it, but it could and probably will happen at some point. If it is as big of a problem as you say then Samsung, HTC, and the other phone OEMS should simply create their own consortium and build their own store. Samsung could even migrate to Tizen if they wanted to.

As i said in a previous post. I have come to the belief that app stores need to be OS independent. I would love to see a Galaxy S7 with some of Apples core services and vice versa.

 

[vzwuser76]

But the problem is the playstore is part of google play services. You can't have one without the other.

Part of the problem is that we are so ecosystem focused no a days. I would love to see a day that no matter what hardware I bought i could load any app store and run any app on whatever device I want. That will never happen though without legislation and a major legal battle.

Google play services isn't part of AOSP either. AOSP is rather barren, but it's a base that people can build on. Like I said before, think of AOSP as Android without any trace of Google or it's services. Essentially it's a home screen, settings, a dialer, maybe contacts and a calendar, and probably not much else. I can't say for certain since I've never seen AOSP, but going off of people that have, it's the bare minimum for use.

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

When i got my GS7e google services were far from prominent. The most prominent thing was the play store on the main screen.

I am not arguing against OEM's. I am saying they actually have alternatives and believe they should look at those instead of demanding google give them free access to what google spent time cultivating a long time ago. To say no one can create a alternative to Google's app store is foolish. It may take time to get developers interested in it, but it could and probably will happen at some point. If it is as big of a problem as you say then Samsung, HTC, and the other phone OEMS should simply create their own consortium and build their own store. Samsung could even migrate to Tizen if they wanted to.

As i said in a previous post. I have come to the belief that app stores need to be OS independent. I would love to see a Galaxy S7 with some of Apples core services and vice versa.

Your default home screen also included the search widget and Google folder.

Sure, they could build an alternative, or use the Amazon App Store. They would get throttled in reviews and cast off as second class. Sorry, but that's the reality.

Search and Chrome probably give Google the majority of the data they need for ads. That's why I said a case could be made for those being mandatory. The rest should be optional. The only thing that would suffer is Google Now, and they could push suggestions for additional apps to increase the functionality for Now in Now. Something like "we can show you calendar events if you install Google calendar" (just an example).

 

[vzwuser76]

Similar to the way Intel was rumored to be getting device wins....by giving chips away for free. Of course OEM's are going to use what is free as long as it isn't completely terrible. If Android never existed I suspect that Blackberry and Windows Phone would have remained more relevant competitors.



Your suggestion doesn't sound half bad actually.

The problem is that Google isn't giving OEM's any options with what they can load and there are no alternative options for them to use that would keep them competitive in the marketplace. It's literally "you do what we want or you can't compete". And yes, there are always corner cases to this. China is a poor example though, since the Chinese government is the reason Google can't bring the Play Store there in an official capacity.
________________________________________________________________

I feel like the people that are arguing against OEM's having options are choosing to be blind to the fact that Google holds all the cards and that they can, in fact, do things that are "evil". The very same people that say "Apple installs apps that can't be uninstalled and pre-installs so many apps that people don't use" are the same people defending Google when they do exactly the same thing. Only difference is Apple CAN do that because every part of the product is made by them and not partners. Let's say Apple did allow other OEM's make iOS devices, but dictated pre-installed apps and the "first home screen" app icon grid. Nobody would be ok with that, and to pretend that you (nobody specifically, but people in general) would be is disingenuous.

What is Google preventing them from loading on their devices that is keeping them from being uncompetitive? If you're saying the Playstore, they're not preventing them from loading it, they just need to also preinstall Google's apps to do so. Like tr-1 said, no one is forcing them to use Android. But if they decide to use Android, they should follow the stipulations Google has set out.

So by requiring OEMs to preinstall Google apps, they are taking away all their options? It's "evil" to give away something for free, but with stipulations? You act like it would be better to charge to use Android rather than give it away for free but with some strings attached. Apparently you've never heard of the phrase "there's no such things as a free lunch". These are businesses, if they give something away, there will be some benefit for them. You mentioned Intel giving out chips to companies like that was a bad thing. Were they supposed to keep giving them away forever? They'd be a pretty crappy business if they did.

As much as you say people are against OEMs having choices, you seem to be against companies making money. There are numerous companies that give their products away to get their foot in the door, and then sell them when they get established. You act like if they start out giving their products for free, then they need to be free forever. First and foremost, these companies are in business to make money. If they can undercut the competition, of course they'll do it to gain an advantage. But that doesn't mean they're going to do it continuously.

As far as your Apple analogy, that's essentially what Microsoft did with their partners. They dictated the minimum hardware specs, they dictated what software changes could and couldn't be made. As I recall, they were never sued for it, the ones that didn't like it moved on. But in this case, the OEMs act like they're entitled to whatever Google has for free without any strings attached. If they don't like it, no one is forcing them to use Android. They can partner with MS, they can fork Android for themselves, or they can create their own entirely unique OS. But they want a turnkey operation for no cost. It's that sense of entitlement that I have a problem with.

Maybe Google needs to do what they did with the Pixel C and build their own Nexus/Pixel phone in house and keep their own version of Android and the Playstore to themselves. Their hardware partners can use AOSP or go their own way (Samsung could use their Tizen OS and LG could give WebOS a go). Then no one would be beholden to anyone, if they make it, they did it by their own hand, not because someone gave them something for free.

 

[tr-1]

Similar to the way Intel was rumored to be getting device wins....by giving chips away for free. Of course OEM's are going to use what is free as long as it isn't completely terrible. If Android never existed I suspect that Blackberry and Windows Phone would have remained more relevant competitors.

1. Don't care about rumors and don't really see the parallel here anyway.
2. OEMs can use either AOSP and do whatever they want or go with Google and have better support. OR something in the middle.... I mean, smaller companies might not even want to reinvent the wheel (by making their own browsing, messaging apps, etc) but want to heavily customize GUI. Again, you aren't explaining what's not fair here.

Blackberry? It's like saying phone OEMs would survive because Apple is relevant. No... this is not the case because Blackberry like Apple isn't working with other OEMs. Windows? Perhaps it'd be more relevant but again, I don't care about assumptions and rumors. Fact is, every single phone OEM today (besides Apple) is running some sort of Android and they all should thank Google for that.

Would it be fair if Google set some sort of licencing fee for every Android device? I mean, Android is Google's product and they spend $$$ on it. But if Google set licencing fee then many OEMs wouldn't make it because the margins are razor thin. But then again, this is all assumption and kinda irrelevant. Fact is stated in bullet #2.

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

It's pretty clear we're just going to keep going in circles. No need to continue with that, although I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion.

Thanks to those that have taken the time to engage with me.

 

[ChromeJob]

There's an interesting article this morning on bgr.com. It's entitled Google Nexus phones won't run pure Android anymore. The article says they spoke with people from the Nexus program who stated that Google will continue working with OEMs to produce Nexus phones, but that they will be encouraging them to include certain features that are not part of Android itself, not part of the stock Android experience. They didn't use the word bloatware, but that's obviously what it is. So enjoy the Nexus 6p, it may be the last in the line with this major advantage over other androids.

Posted via the Android Central App

Some of what you see on the Internet is just click bait. Maintain healthy skepticism (trust but verify), and your blood pressure will thank you.

 

[murphcid]

To me bloatware is the crap that AT&T and Samsung add to their phones that CANNOT be removed. Or HTC with facebook

 

[dhotiram]

1st you have to look at the source of the article. It's coming from BGR who not only is in the Cupertino basement but also an apple *****. They are fox news of tech world who report without verifying the facts. I saw the whole Sundar Pichai interview on recode and he specifically clarifies that there will be some new Android features that will be exclusive to Nexus devices in form of apps and functionality. No mention of bloatware.

 

[coldconfession13]

Yea I don't believe BGR anymore. They are a apple fanboy site anyways so its hard to take them seriously.

 

[Jerry Hildenbrand]

This is what happens when someone writes about things they don't understand for people who don't understand to read and try to learn from.

No Nexus phone has ever ran AOSP. Not even the Nexus One. None ever will. Nobody ever claimed that they did, and in fact Google is not shy about saying Nexus devices are their vision of Android as based on the AOSP.

 

[wlonsdale]

Sounds like every news outlet that makes the news instead of reporting it....

 

[Stang68]

I have a feeling this originated from the interview with Sundar Pichai. He said that they want to bring "unique" software experiences to Nexus devices.

My take? Nexus has never been "pure Android" and has always been Google's take on Android, including unique versions of the camera app and keyboard. If Google can more tightly integrate the hardware and software then that is a good thing IMO. It will make Nexus even more competitive with "the other" company that has tight hardware/software integration.

OP, this guy has your answer.

As he said, Nexus devices are running what Google thinks Android should be. "Stock Android" is what is up on Github.