reliability issues of data2ext?

[bweb]

Ok here's the deal:

I don't like the data2ext mod in general and I'm not the only dev that feels this way. It is an unstable mod that I never really wanted to support in the first place. That is why it is not included in the Rom itself.

I'm highly considering removing it from post#3 of this thread because almost all the issues that arise are from people using it. As a matter of fact, I just convinced myself to do just that. Sorry to everyone who uses it, but issues with data2ext are something I am not willing to support. Hence the warnings that I posted for it.

From this point on, if you choose to use a form of data2ext or apps2sd or anything similar, please don't post problems about it here until you have removed the mod and duplicated the issue while running this Rom in its native form.

This Rom is very stable folks, we are gonna try to keep it that way.

Not to mention to all of you... YOUR SD CARDS ARE GOING THRU TONS OF UN-NEEDED WEAR AND TEAR! Reading and writing that much info all the time is going to kill your SD cards MUCH faster.... just sayin...

Troubleshooting someones faulty SD card is much more than a headache...


This will not be supported in any of the future builds. You can do what you want from there to achieve this.

I understand your stance as a developer and would take the same approach. You shouldn't have to debug hardware, I think you should keep your stance on support 100%!

However, many of us require more memory. There are huge differences in solid state storage by process and by manufacturer. i've used flash chips on projects which would fail 1/100 block writes (but retries would work) and some brands which i've never seen an error.

To the general user, make sure you do your homework before you use a card for data2ext.

go to newegg, look at reviews. certain brands have tons of negative feedback, many DOA, many dying within 2 months... and you are right, the # of write operations is orders of magnitude higher for this purpose than something like a camera or mp3 player. so quality has to be #1.

can anyone characterize the read/write operations which occur? what is written, how frequently, to the same files over and over or does it make new files? If we knew approx how many writes per sector occur during an avg day while running data2ext, then we could calculate the mean time before failure of using an SD card.

if anyone knows what kind of flash is used for internal storage nand/nor/etc or better yet a part number, i'd love to see that to compare datasheets with micro sd cards. unfortunately from what i've seen, chips have very nice datasheets and SD cards do not, i have not seen any with write cycle testing numbers, only generalities.

thanks for any feedback helping the community use their devices with the power they would like.

*edited title*

 

[hamagc]

I have no details for you big sdcards are quite resilient. When I was working with the xdandroid team on xda for the tp1 and we were running android off the sdcard entirely. I have yet to have an sdcard go bad due to read/writes. I end up replacing with a bigger card well before I ever hit a limit. And android still ran better than windows lol.

 

[eracet]

You can buy a micro Sd for about $1 a GB.
So for $16 you can get a decent card.
People usually (sometimes not) upgrade there phone after a few years.
When this happens new phones are getting more internal memory then the Optimus.
You can always do a TB backup of your apps and save it to windows.
If you ended up crashing your SD cost would be minimum in cost and should be able to restore from windows if you ever backed up apps, then there is always market.

From what I have read is that while yes there is heavy use if you do data2sd, it is something that is not going to kill your card longer then you would normally use it. (Has anyone here lost a card yet?)

As far as developers when a patch gets put out and says needs testing, then you give feedback, its obvious that giving feedback was never an intent when same day it gets told the hell with apps2sd.
Things like this should get supported if people want to use them, bashing them and telling them they are stupid for testing is not the way to handle things.

I have gave praise to developers on multiple occasions and think that is great that they are working on trying to bring us the best android experience possible. Please do not shut the door on peoples views on data2ext.

These are my views take it as it is,
Thanks.

 

[jstntp]

As far as developers when a patch gets put out and says needs testing, then you give feedback, its obvious that giving feedback was never an intent when same day it gets told the hell with apps2sd.
Things like this should get supported if people want to use them, bashing them and telling them they are stupid for testing is not the way to handle things.

I have gave praise to developers on multiple occasions and think that is great that they are working on trying to bring us the best android experience possible. Please do not shut the door on peoples views on data2ext.

These are my views take it as it is,
Thanks.

I would like to give a little backstory if I could.

When Your Mom ROM was developed, I/we new we would not include any data2ext mods in the ROM itself. It IS unstable at times. But to be fair to the users who like to use the mod, I took an entire evening setting up, modifying and testing my slightly custom copy, tailored to work with Your Mom. I got it to work well and posted it for users to try. With tons of warnings about how we would not support or be responsible for mishaps to ANYTHING while this mod was being used. That was stated from the get go.

Bottom line is this, after the last few users reported issues while using it I realized I made a mistake and should have never even taken the time to test, tweak, and post it in the first place. I/we cannot continue to support something we do not believe in. That's it!! There is plenty of threads around the web providing support for this and similar mods. Please take some time and seek them out if you wish to travel that road.

We will continue to build stable strong roms for public use. And we have to stand behind what we believe in.

And, stating that you felt "bashed" and "called stupid for testing"......... sorry you felt that way.



EDIT:

If you feel that we should support a mod because users like it, I invite you to take a walk in our shoes. We have donated Hours and Hours and Days of FREE time to this community because we like to, not because we have to.

 

[eracet]

EDIT:

If you feel that we should support a mod because users like it, I invite you to take a walk in our shoes. We have donated Hours and Hours and Days of FREE time to this community because we like to, not because we have to.

I host a website ,pay money , and development plus content time to host it even with no return, I donate hours, money and time to this site and get little back from any thanks. I don't have to do it but I want to because of the friends I have made and people I have met.

So I do have some understanding of how it feels.

Lets get back to the topic of this post (both of us).
I am still curious about what replies will come back about bad problems with data2sd and sd card problems. (besides development).

Thanks for the backstory.

 

[jstntp]

I host a website ,pay money , and development plus content time to host it even with no return, I donate hours, money and time to this site and get little back from any thanks. I don't have to do it but I want to because of the friends I have made and people I have met.

So I do have some understanding of how it feels.

Lets get back to the topic of this post (both of us).
I am still curious about what replies will come back about bad problems with data2sd and sd card problems. (besides development).

Thanks for the backstory.

Have a nice evening!

 

[jondevere]

Nobody said you cant use it. Its just not going to be incorporated into the ROM itself. I said what I think and you are allowed your own opinion. If anyone else has an opinion feel free to speak it. You can use that MOD if you like. Nobody will mind.

 

[epidenimus]

I used the data2sd mod for a few weeks and it worked great... until it created problems that really complicated things. I did something that is part of almost every ROM hopping instruction set and hosed up everything.

The arguments against it, IMHO, are in part as follows:

1. You are moving a part of your phone's OS to a separate device (your SD card) and linking to it. If either the SD card fails or the linking is overwritten, your phone will no longer work as expected and you will most likely have to start over from a fresh ROM install. No bueno.
   
2. The process of troubleshooting has become easier and many fixes presently rely on things being in certain places. Data2SD breaks this system. Your ROM may know where to find your dalvik cache, but does your custom recovery? Go ahead, wipe your caches via recovery as so many fixes or other mods would have you do. BORK, bork, e bork!! Some here may know a way to fix that, but how will you explain it to the less research-oriented user? I found it easier to just install fresh and I kinda know what I am doing to a degree.
   
3. No one in good faith would recommend this mod to a friend who just wants to add more apps to his device and is only curious about rooting. You may recommend Your Mom ROM to your mom, but would you recommend this mod to your mom? The fun ends when she goes to upgrade her SD card to get more audio books or Beatles albums on it.

I find that the data2sd mod is NOT for the general user and is even a pain in the arse for a power user in many cases. Obviously, the OP here is at least a power user. Placing a block inline with the ROM install sheet, regardless of how bold or red you make the warning (Think of how much of that you ignored when you rooted or ROM'd.), makes it appear as though it is a solid option or even recommended for general use.

I support our dev's decision to remove it from their ROM page. I only wish that the fat warning about the dalvik cache would be moved to the thread outlining the mod on this forum.

As for the read/write cycles, wouldn't that vary drastically depending on the apps installed and the usage?

 

[bweb]

From what I have read is that while yes there is heavy use if you do data2sd, it is something that is not going to kill your card longer then you would normally use it. (Has anyone here lost a card yet?)

all flash has a limited number of write cycles, but as you mentioned you can backup your phone and they are cheap.


jon (can i call you that? i wasn't sure if i should use your full handle, seemed too formal), thanks for the backstory.

I did a bit of searching, but its late (and i'm sick which means i should have gone to bed hours ago ) anyway, i wasn't able to find the stability info. from the previous post it sounded like you were concerned about stability because of the hardware. in your most recent, it sounds like you are concerned about software.

do you think the issues are related to the flash corrupting a read or write, the mod itself, the OS not able to deal with things moving to sd, something about the type of flash, or something else?

thanks again.

 

[bweb]

I used the data2sd mod for a few weeks and it worked great... until it created problems that really complicated things. I did something that is part of almost every ROM hopping instruction set and hosed up everything.

The arguments against it, IMHO, are in part as follows:

1. You are moving a part of your phone's OS to a separate device (your SD card) and linking to it. If either the SD card fails or the linking is overwritten, your phone will no longer work as expected and you will most likely have to start over from a fresh ROM install. No bueno.
   
2. The process of troubleshooting has become easier and many fixes presently rely on things being in certain places. Data2SD breaks this system. Your ROM may know where to find your dalvik cache, but does your custom recovery? Go ahead, wipe your caches via recovery as so many fixes or other mods would have you do. BORK, bork, e bork!! Some here may know a way to fix that, but how will you explain it to the less research-oriented user? I found it easier to just install fresh and I kinda know what I am doing to a degree.
   
3. No one in good faith would recommend this mod to a friend who just wants to add more apps to his device and is only curious about rooting. You may recommend Your Mom ROM to your mom, but would you recommend this mod to your mom? The fun ends when she goes to upgrade her SD card to get more audio books or Beatles albums on it.

I find that the data2sd mod is NOT for the general user and is even a pain in the arse for a power user in many cases. Obviously, the OP here is at least a power user. Placing a block inline with the ROM install sheet, regardless of how bold or red you make the warning (Think of how much of that you ignored when you rooted or ROM'd.), makes it appear as though it is a solid option or even recommended for general use.

I support our dev's decision to remove it from their ROM page. I only wish that the fat warning about the dalvik cache would be moved to the thread outlining the mod on this forum.

As for the read/write cycles, wouldn't that vary drastically depending on the apps installed and the usage?

nice reply, I see what you mean about possible pitfalls, I may have fallen in one when I tried to delete user data, it didn't boot properly after that. also, I always wondered about doing a fullbackup when this mod was running.

i've been using reborn and data2ext, it best matches my needs.

regarding # of cycles, yes, app dependant, but i was more worried about cache, d-cache. I read about what they are, but I could not infer how often it is written (reads do not wear out flash). it sounded like hardware was being blamed and that didn't make too much sense to me. after the devs responses it sounds more like what you just wrote about.

 

[drewwalton19216801]

nice reply, I see what you mean about possible pitfalls, I may have fallen in one when I tried to delete user data, it didn't boot properly after that. also, I always wondered about doing a fullbackup when this mod was running.

i've been using reborn and data2ext, it best matches my needs.

regarding # of cycles, yes, app dependant, but i was more worried about cache, d-cache. I read about what they are, but I could not infer how often it is written (reads do not wear out flash). it sounded like hardware was being blamed and that didn't make too much sense to me. after the devs responses it sounds more like what you just wrote about.

That's correct. The issues that can arise are definitely a result of the general unstability of the data2ext and apps2sd mods. This is by design. Android was never designed to move the entire DATA partition to the SD Card.

For this reason we have chosen to not support installations of Your Mom ROM that have the data2ext/apps2sd mods also installed. That doesn't mean you can't use those mods, but it means if you begin to have problems we will ignore bug reports unless the issue can be reproduced without those mods.

 

[eracet]

I know that you can add a usb flash card and get it to run virtual ram from windows pc.
This seems like the same concept that data2sd does.
May have to look around and see what can look up on that.
One thing I am wondering about is SSD the same concept as a flash USB or android data2ext management?

 

[eracet]

That's correct. The issues that can arise are definitely a result of the general unstability of the data2ext and apps2sd mods. This is by design. Android was never designed to move the entire DATA partition to the SD Card.

For this reason we have chosen to not support installations of Your Mom ROM that have the data2ext/apps2sd mods also installed. That doesn't mean you can't use those mods, but it means if you begin to have problems we will ignore bug reports unless the issue can be reproduced without those mods.

When I posted the force close error I wasn't sure if it was rom based or data2sd based.
Only loaded the rom a few days ago.
Maybe give feedback on the issue and if it is hardware based mention to them or wait to see if others have the same issue and it is not hardware based and rom based.

Any thoughts on something like Optirom has with darktremors data2ext mod?

 

[jondevere]

You can call me jon, but i gave no back story. I just said what is and isnt happening.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

 

[jondevere]

Optirom will work for u if u wanna flash it go for it.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

 

[Kamron]

Well, I just wanted to report that I've been a Data2ext user for a while now (currently with your mom 1.0 and previously with both CM7 and Reborn), love it, and have never had any problems with it. I do understand the potential risk of stability problems, as well as the fact that I'm likely prematurely destroying my SD card with the additional read/writes, etc... Nonetheless, I will continue to use it and naturally gravitate towards ROMs that seem best suited to using it.

That all being said, I do not expect ROM developers to cater to my wishes or anyone else. If the ROM dev's decide that it is too unstable to support, or they just don't want to support it for no reason at all, that's 100% the dev's perogative. I can't fault a developer for this at all.

 

[Kamron]

The only thing that's somewhat disappointing to me is perhaps the feeling of a little bit of a "bait and switch" as far as Your Mom goes. While there is no guarantee that any ROM development will ever continue, when I contribute in support of a ROM, I do so with the hope, that development of that ROM and its features will continue. When I see a feature dropped like Data2ext, I am naturally disappointed that it was dropped.

 

[drewwalton19216801]

The only thing that's somewhat disappointing to me is perhaps the feeling of a little bit of a "bait and switch" as far as Your Mom goes. While there is no guarantee that any ROM development will ever continue, when I contribute in support of a ROM, I do so with the hope, that development of that ROM and its features will continue. When I see a feature dropped like Data2ext, I am naturally disappointed that it was dropped.

We have stated multiple times our reasons for discontinuing direct support of data2ext. If you want to use a mod to move your apps to your SD Card, apps2sd will work.

There is no "bait and switch" going on here. The only reason we initially provided support is because users were begging for it. The reason we discontinued support was because it became very clear that supporting such a mod would create way more headaches than was initially anticipated.

Again, you may still use apps2sd if your wish but if you run into problems there isn't much we can do. Any further posts even slightly complaining about the discontinued support of data2ext will be reported and likely removed immediately.

EDIT: Also, data2ext is not a feature of Your Mom ROM and never has been. It was simply a mod (not created by us) that we tried to support.

 

[ikeywatson]

We have stated multiple times our reasons for discontinuing direct support of data2ext. If you want to use a mod to move your apps to your SD Card, apps2sd will work.

There is no "bait and switch" going on here. The only reason we initially provided support is because users were begging for it. The reason we discontinued support was because it became very clear that supporting such a mod would create way more headaches than was initially anticipated.

Again, you may still use apps2sd if your wish but if you run into problems there isn't much we can do. Any further posts even slightly complaining about the discontinued support of data2ext will be reported and likely removed immediately.

EDIT: Also, data2ext is not a feature of Your Mom ROM and never has been. It was simply a mod (not created by us) that we tried to support.

i think that if people want the mod that they should use optiRom i havent ran into any real issues with it that coulnt be solved so on that note keep your mom as original as it was on the day it was released,"i liked it the way it was before the mod"

 

[eracet]

The only thing that's somewhat disappointing to me is perhaps the feeling of a little bit of a "bait and switch" as far as Your Mom goes. While there is no guarantee that any ROM development will ever continue, when I contribute in support of a ROM, I do so with the hope, that development of that ROM and its features will continue. When I see a feature dropped like Data2ext, I am naturally disappointed that it was dropped.

I think the "bait and switch" that is getting talked about is how it seems like Roms have about a 3 month cycle. Not to say that you cannot stick with one you like but development drops on them.
Thunderom, Reborn, Optirom, Grom, CM7, YourMomRom,CleanRom, sRom.
And a new project that is about 3 months after yourMomRom.
I am not sure the current count of those that are using ZVH baseband, what happens when developing of other Roms (such as YourMomRom) when the "new breed or rom" gets released?

I think this is what you are asking about but I could be wrong.