12-06-2019 02:15 AM
52 123
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  1. anon(10181084)'s Avatar
    For those of you new to the forums or just don’t know me, I do not like limits imposed by device manufacturers and even the companies behind the software that runs on said devices. I want to do with my device what I want, not what the manufacturer thinks I should do. I’ve been an Android user since I was 12 years old and I noticed that while devices are getting more powerful and letting me do many things I couldn’t before (running Windows 7 Enterprise in a PC emulator hugely comes to mind here), there seem to be tons of lockdowns. For example, rooting some devices now is a pain and ends with needing a stock reflash (Galaxy Tab S3 on stock Pie when I tried a few months ago was a DISASTER of a rooting attempt, so much so I didn’t even mention it on the forums at the time). Also, many of the countless XDA tweaks and mods I was able to do on my first Android device are not possible. Another thing are locked bootloaders that in some regions or on certain devices are not unlockable or aren’t an instant unlock process. I know they claim “security” reasons, but there is something more to it. If there were any “security” issues, laptops and PC’s would’ve done it a long time ago. Manufacturers want us to buy their devices, frequently upgrade, use exclusively their ecosystems and services. Well, I want to keep the right to combine hardware, software and services that I want, get my digital content from whichever source I want, and so on. I want to have FULL desktop PC style control over my mobile devices out of the box, install whatever I want, as I will NEVER buy into dumb locked down all-encompassing ecosystems that force you to use them for everything. I know this might sound like a pointless rant, but I’ve been using computers since I was pretty much a baby and I remember the good old days when I literally could do anything I wanted and the computer would just do it, not hide anything under the hood from me, etc… I consider my cellphone and tablet to be mini full-fledged computers and that is why I stuck with Android. And don’t even get me started on the whole removable battery situation…

    Bottom line is that I don’t like, and will actively and passionately oppose this new trend of mobile devices (and heck, things like smart TVs and smart home devices) slowly becoming more and more locked down and forcing you to use the “integrated whole” that the manufacturers want you to use. I am a very nerdy person who likes to tinker, who likes to make “ultimate” setups on all my mobile devices (think like the cellphone version of those “ultimate” console setups that have everything and anything you want with zero limitations). The whole reason I use Android is because it lets me do most everything I want, and Android Pie is the LAST version of Android I will even remotely consider to be “true Android” because Google starting with Q is slowly getting rid of legacy direct file access which I still use with a number of legacy apps that are a lot better than their modern counterparts (I still have and use some VERY EARLY android apps that I’ve mostly scavenged from parts of the internet that can only be found with Russian search engines). If Google takes away ANY MORE major freedom features from Android than they already have, I honestly don’t want to even remotely imagine living in such an epicly broken world as it would be too boring for me and tech would not be nearly as interesting as I don’t like my stuff being a “black box” that I am supposed to use for what most non tech-savvy people consider “normal”.
    kct1975 and Javier P like this.
    11-03-2019 01:36 AM
  2. Rukbat's Avatar
    That's why I don't buy phones with locked bootloaders. (At least with Magisk, that's pretty much all it takes to root.) I also don't like phones for which there's ni implementation of TWRP (and I'm not going to get into compiling one for myself - not that I can't run a compiler, but it's easier to get a good phone for which TWRP is available). And I won't buy a phone that doesn't come with a ROM in individual files. (I can't tell you how many times I've bricked my Pixel 2, and had to flash boot.img to get it back.)

    They can make all the fancy "looks" improvements they want, but if I can't get the "works" improvements, I'm just not interested. (Of course, many people have never even seen the recovery screen of their phones. But for those like you and me, operation and access is important.) If Google makes any more "improvements", I'm just going to have to take the bull by the horns and learn to tear AOSP apart and modify it for the new phones. (It's not like I can't develop software - at 77, I just don't want to any more. But I will if I have to.)
    anon(10181084) and kct1975 like this.
    11-03-2019 01:06 PM
  3. belodion's Avatar
    @milleniumdroid, I agree. Non-unlockable bootloaders are exceptionally annoying, and it's possible to spend hours of wasted time - I've done so myself - looking for hacks and exploits that might allow you to bypass such restrictions. You have to resign yourself to using the phone more or less as the manufacturer has produced it, which you may very well not wish to do. No tweaks, no custom ROMs, no upgrading to unofficial later versions of the OS...nothing. Is this supposed to be Android or what?

    Another thing that annoys, though a little off-topic, is the carrier-locking of phones. I believe that carriers ought to be required to unlock phones at the end of the contract. A phone bought used from a store, the original owner unknown and uncontactable, and locked to a carrier, is next-to-useless for all potential buyers except those using that carrier.
    kct1975 and anon(10181084) like this.
    11-03-2019 01:06 PM
  4. anon(10181084)'s Avatar
    @Rukbat, @ Belodion

    Yeah, it is annoying. I hate that my Snapdragon S8 is bootloader LOCKED which means that when Pie becomes unusable/insecure, I'm pretty much SOL unless I buy a new device. The thing is is that I can't really afford to buy super expensive devices and the S8 was the best deal for display quality (ignoring the burn in issue) and performance, and I knew it would be reliable as I've never had a Samsung product fail prematurely on me. And as for my bootloader unlocked European model Tab S3, the fact that the thermal management for the GPU is complete crap on custom ROMs is what literally forces me to stock. Even though on stock Pie it also runs pretty hot (up to 97c) under heavy CPU/GPU load, on custom ROMs even a light 3D load will cause graphical glitches and 100c temperatures which is unacceptable. I've tried complaining on XDA to no avail. It happened both with LineageOS and LuisROM, forcing me to go stock (which is of course a ton less responsive in day to day tasks than custom ROMs).

    Honestly there should be a movement to FORCE companies to make their devices open and have a recovery that allows flashing of all GSI images out of the box. Google should also have an option to install additional 3rd party drivers via APK files should the user want any hardware they want to interface with an Android device. Also, devices should come with a little USB drive containing a full package that let's you reflash your device to stock if you accidentally bricked it or malware messed it up to unfixable levels.

    And sorry if my rant sounds a bit emotional, but I almost came to tears yesterday remembering the old days when I could do anything and everything with the venerable Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 and it mostly wouldn't have any bugs, glitches, ETC... Oh how much I loved CYANOGENMOD! Now messing with the wrong thing can very easily make your device unable to make emergency calls, etc...
    Laura Knotek and kct1975 like this.
    11-03-2019 01:28 PM
  5. belodion's Avatar
    ^ There's no need at all to apologise. I'm sure that many of us here have such grievances, and a forum such as this is a good place to air them.
    11-03-2019 02:33 PM
  6. Almeuit's Avatar
    For me it isn't a huge issue since I don't do the whole root / ROM thing anymore. I have had no desire to have to modify any of my phones for years now.
    11-03-2019 03:06 PM
  7. Mike Dee's Avatar
    I don't keep a device long enough to matter and I stopped rooting after OEMs basically eliminated lag in their devices, but I agree. We should be able to install anything we want on our devices. It is a little more difficult than PCs because of carrier compatibility but I'm sure that could be resolved.
    11-03-2019 03:23 PM
  8. anon(10181084)'s Avatar
    I kinda steered away from the whole root/rom thing because it just became too risky/tricky/messy on modern devicea and I need my pricey devices to be 100% reliable all the time. I wish it hadn't though, as I always like keeping my devices as longs as they serve me well. I am not rich enough to upgrade every year (unless I must for some reason) like I see a good portion of this forum doing. The hardware in something like the Snapdragon S8 is still excellent and certainly deserves better than a LOCKED bootloader since the SD835 is still EXTREMELY FAST and good enough for at least another 2 years. And just because you guys don't keep your devices for long doesn't mean others are like you. Even if I were rich I still probably wouldn't upgrade every year.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-03-2019 03:31 PM
  9. Javier P's Avatar
    As belodion said, no need to apologise! More and more brands are locking their devices down these days, which is sad. At least there are some other ones that let you mess with your phone as much as you want. Maybe you should consider jumping ship and abandon Samsung for OnePlus, Moto or similar brands where you still have plenty of room for your nerdy freedom

    I know, that means paying for a new device but ...
    11-03-2019 03:34 PM
  10. anon(10181084)'s Avatar
    As belodion said, no need to apologise! More and more brands are locking their devices down these days, which is sad. At least there are some other ones that let you mess with your phone as much as you want. Maybe you should consider jumping ship and abandon Samsung for OnePlus, Moto or similar brands where you still have plenty of room for your nerdy freedom

    I know, that means paying for a new device but ...
    I would gladly do that but I don't have the money to upgrade frequently (got my S8 back in August, and I like keeping devices for a long time), OnePlus phones are even more fragile than Samsung and I don't really trust Chinese OEMs. I think that for now I will just have to live with it and use the freedoms I still have. Luckily though, I do have VMOS for messing around (it even has root inside the VM!).
    11-03-2019 03:38 PM
  11. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Honestly there should be a movement to FORCE companies to make their devices open and have a recovery that allows flashing of all GSI images out of the box.
    That will never happen. Push like that, and the manufacturers could simply say ok, we'll just leave the business (which has happened in various industries before). If anything, vote with your wallet.

    Now messing with the wrong thing can very easily make your device unable to make emergency calls, etc...
    And it's stuff like this that has manufacturers locking things down. They've always tried preventing you from rooting, it's just now they are getting better at doing so. If they made it so the average Joe could root their phone, they would have to deal with even more headaches from people screwing up their phones and expecting the manufacturer to do something about it.

    There's also something to be said about locking things down. By doing so, the manufacturers can limit the amount of bugs, streamline usability, and better assist customers with tech support. This isn't the only place it's happening either. I'm in the trucking industry and have seen it here too. It use to be that you could order the major components (chassis, engine, transmission, axles) from different manufacturers all on the same truck. Now most of that is being brought in house, so the manufacturer has more control. This allows for more fine tuned performance and increased fuel economy for the majority of owners.

    Understand that I'm not saying it's best to lock everything down and keep it in house. I'm only pointing out that there's a method to their madness to satisfy 99% of their customer base. I know that sucks for the 1% that want to tinker and make things their own, but don't expect that sort of compassion from the major manufacturers.
    anon(10181084) likes this.
    11-03-2019 03:53 PM
  12. anon(10181084)'s Avatar
    That will never happen. Push like that, and the manufacturers could simply say ok, we'll just leave the business (which has happened in various industries before). If anything, vote with your wallet.



    And it's stuff like this that has manufacturers locking things down. They've always tried preventing you from rooting, it's just now they are getting better at doing so. If they made it so the average Joe could root their phone, they would have to deal with even more headaches from people screwing up their phones and expecting the manufacturer to do something about it.

    There's also something to be said about locking things down. By doing so, the manufacturers can limit the amount of bugs, streamline usability, and better assist customers with tech support. This isn't the only place it's happening either. I'm in the trucking industry and have seen it here too. It use to be that you could order the major components (chassis, engine, transmission, axles) from different manufacturers all on the same truck. Now most of that is being brought in house, so the manufacturer has more control. This allows for more for tuned performance and increased fuel economy for the majority of owners.

    Understand that I'm not saying it's best to lock everything down and keep it in house. I'm only pointing out that there's a method to their madness to satisfy 99% of their customer base. I know that sucks for the 1% that want to tinker and make things their own, but don't expect that sort of compassion from the major manufacturers.
    And why don't they have, for those who soft brick their devices and don't know how to mess with Odin and other flashing tools, a built-in ROM chip containing a stock ROM backup (full raw NAND binary back for that matter) that you could restore by pressing a key combination of some kind regardless of how badly you screwed stuff up?
    11-03-2019 03:58 PM
  13. Mooncatt's Avatar
    And why don't they have, for those who soft brick their devices and don't know how to mess with Odin and other flashing tools, a built-in ROM chip containing a stock ROM backup (full raw NAND binary back for that matter) that you could restore by pressing a key combination of some kind regardless of how badly you screwed stuff up?
    Again, that's above what their main customer base would need because they shouldn't be messing around with such deep level stuff in the first place. So that's extra expense on their part that they would need to charge customers for with no real benefit.
    11-03-2019 04:38 PM
  14. anon(10181084)'s Avatar
    Well, then I guess I will have to content all my low level mess around needs using VMOS.
    11-03-2019 04:39 PM
  15. belodion's Avatar
    Android isn't really Android unless you can do all those things. I'm perfectly happy to use older devices if they're good enough for my purposes and can be modified as I need or wish. Thanks to the openness of Motorola, I was able to unlock, root and ROM a Moto E/1 to CM13, the Adoptable Storage of which I needed for the device to be usable. I like the small size, good performance, and exceptional battery life, so why not?
    As we know, not all manufacturers are so obliging.

    Apart from anything else, customising of this sort, whether you need to do it for some reason or whether it's just something you want to try, is enjoyable...to the extent that it's still possible to do it.
    11-03-2019 05:56 PM
  16. anon(10181084)'s Avatar
    Android isn't really Android unless you can do all those things. I'm perfectly happy to use older devices if they're good enough for my purposes and can be modified as I need or wish. Thanks to the openness of Motorola, I was able to unlock, root and ROM a Moto E/1 to CM13, the Adoptable Storage of which I needed for the device to be usable. I like the small size, good performance, and exceptional battery life, so why not?
    As we know, not all manufacturers are so obliging.

    Apart from anything else, customising of this sort, whether you need to do it for some reason or whether it's just something you want to try, is enjoyable...to the extent that it's still possible to do it.
    Actually, at home I have two devices I like to tinker with, specifically my 1st two Android phones. The Lenovo A369i (the 1st one) performs like crap (GPU to slow and RAM too lacking to smoothly run Nougat), and an Alcatel Idol X+ that seems to have developed touch screen issues. These phones are almost 5 years old now but served me well for all the ROM TINKERING after they were retired from service.
    Laura Knotek and belodion like this.
    11-03-2019 06:27 PM
  17. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I still have a 2013 Nexus 7, so I'll be able to tinker with it if I get the urge again.

    I haven't rooted my phones lately, since I didn't want to break Android Pay, Netflix and other things.
    anon(10181084) likes this.
    11-03-2019 06:44 PM
  18. anon(10181084)'s Avatar
    I still have a 2013 Nexus 7, so I'll be able to tinker with it if I get the urge again.

    I haven't rooted my phones lately, since I didn't want to break Android Pay, Netflix and other things.
    Just rembered I have a spare Moto M I inherited from my mom. It is fully functional aside from a long crack on the front glass. I think some stuff might be doable if I am careful and delicate with the screen. Fixing it in the US with Ubreakifix would cost $100+ for what was a $250 lower midrange phone 2 years ago, so I will just take it to my favorite cheap back alley phone repair shop in my hometown in Serbia when I visit my family for Christmas break. In fact, I'm gonna go attempt to unlock the bootloader on that bad boy right now...
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-03-2019 06:51 PM
  19. frederickdawg's Avatar
    So out of interest. Why are Samsung USA devices bootloader locked but not the models from the rest of the world? Let me guess , it's the carrier's that ask for it?
    11-03-2019 07:28 PM
  20. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Just rembered I have a spare Moto M I inherited from my mom. It is fully functional aside from a long crack on the front glass. I think some stuff might be doable if I am careful and delicate with the screen. Fixing it in the US with Ubreakifix would cost $100+ for what was a $250 lower midrange phone 2 years ago, so I will just take it to my favorite cheap back alley phone repair shop in my hometown in Serbia when I visit my family for Christmas break. In fact, I'm gonna go attempt to unlock the bootloader on that bad boy right now...
    Good luck!
    anon(10181084) and kct1975 like this.
    11-03-2019 07:40 PM
  21. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    So out of interest. Why are Samsung USA devices bootloader locked but not the models from the rest of the world? Let me guess , it's the carrier's that ask for it?
    I don't know definitely, but my guess is the same as yours.
    anon(10181084) and kct1975 like this.
    11-03-2019 07:40 PM
  22. anon(10181084)'s Avatar
    Good luck!
    Well, bootloader unlock went fine but custom rom install attempt was epic fail and now I cannot get by Mediatek's dumb secure boot crap. Even if I do manage to kludge this thing back to life again, I will not attempt to mod or reflash another modern Mediatek device EVER AGAIN. This is the type of stupidity this rant thread is all about and why I now just resorted to using VMOS for nerdy shenanigans that require root and stuff, because if the VM gets bricked I just reset app data and I'm back in business (it happened once already and I was back up in 5 minutes).
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-03-2019 09:24 PM
  23. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Well, bootloader unlock went fine but custom rom install attempt was epic fail and now I cannot get by Mediatek's dumb secure boot crap. Even if I do manage to kludge this thing back to life again, I will not attempt to mod or reflash another modern Mediatek device EVER AGAIN. This is the type of stupidity this rant thread is all about and why I now just resorted to using VMOS for nerdy shenanigans that require root and stuff, because if the VM gets bricked I just reset app data and I'm back in business (it happened once already and I was back up in 5 minutes).
    Yeah, I totally get what you're saying, and I agree that it shouldn't be such an issue nowadays. I'm sorry the custom rom install failed so badly.
    anon(10181084) likes this.
    11-03-2019 09:28 PM
  24. anon(10181084)'s Avatar
    Yeah, I totally get what you're saying, and I agree that it shouldn't be such an issue nowadays. I'm sorry the custom rom install failed so badly.
    Nah, don't worry. The phone wasn't of any importance. Another reason I buy Samsung devices and like em' so much is that in the event I or some malware mess something up, I can use Odin to fix it in 10 seconds (I've known how to do it since I was 14 years old ). I used to not have anything against Mediatek (i even liked them quite a bit in a past life), but now I will steer clear of Mediatek devices at ALL COSTS.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-03-2019 09:32 PM
  25. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Nah, don't worry. The phone wasn't of any importance. Another reason I buy Samsung devices and like em' so much is that in the event I or some malware mess something up, I can use Odin to fix it in 10 seconds (I've known how to do it since I was 14 years old ). I used to not have anything against Mediatek (i even liked them quite a bit in a past life), but now I will steer clear of Mediatek devices at ALL COSTS.
    That's great to hear. I've never had a Mediatek device, but I'll be sure to stay away from those.
    anon(10181084) likes this.
    11-03-2019 09:40 PM
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