10-15-2016 10:30 PM
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  1. Ry's Avatar
    Digging up an old Google+ post that's getting new questions now that we have the LG G5 and HTC 10: https://plus.google.com/+BensonLeung/posts/cEvVQLXhyRX
    04-22-2016 02:11 PM
  2. Bearcats98's Avatar
    He is saying it "violates" the letter of the law. Which is fine and dandy. But what I am not seeing is a laymens explanation as to the RISKS of playing this game. I am not supposed to over boost the turbo in my car; but I do it...daily. I am looking for something that isn't hiding behind engineering speak. And I do respect what Benson is saying but...it needs more laymen speak clarification.
    04-22-2016 02:43 PM
  3. Bearcats98's Avatar
    +Jason Hsu So, if you read my posts before regarding how CC works, you'll know that Type-C to legacy USB cables rely on a pullup resistor from CC to Vbus to signal power advertisement. The device side uses an ADC to read the value of the CC line and determine power limits. The thresholds for the various limits are designed around Vbus being 5V on a legacy Type-A cable.

    The problem is that if QC is allowed on a legacy cable like that, then the assumption that Vbus is 5V is thrown out the door. QC could raise it to 9V, 12V, 20V... Unpredictable behaviour could happen in this situation.

    On a Type-C system with PD, even though the Vbus changes to 9V, 12V, or 20V, the CC is still pulled up to a 5V rail, so the CC communication is not disrupted by changing Vbus.
    I think this might have a piece of the answer in it.
    04-22-2016 02:51 PM
  4. B0WIE's Avatar
    In other words, use the right cable. Perhaps, he's so caught up in his cable reviews and the recent attention he received that he spoke a little quickly, or too briefly, on the subject of the LG and HTC. I understand he wants to share information about USB C standards but I don't agree with taking jabs at manufacturers who find ways to safely hot-rod the existing format. (if I sound a bit snarky, it's because I see things like this in my line of work where well-meaning bloggers confuse consumers)
    04-22-2016 03:03 PM
  5. Ry's Avatar
    In other words, use the right cable. Perhaps, he's so caught up in his cable reviews and the recent attention he received that he spoke a little quickly, or too briefly, on the subject of the LG and HTC. I understand he wants to share information about USB C standards but I don't agree with taking jabs at manufacturers who find ways to safely hot-rod the existing format. (if I sound a bit snarky, it's because I see things like this in my line of work where well-meaning bloggers confuse consumers)
    Note, the original post was from back in November.
    04-22-2016 03:15 PM
  6. Ry's Avatar
    http://www.androidcentral.com/qualco...-compatibility

    Posted via the Android Central App on the Moto X Pure Edition
    04-22-2016 09:46 PM
  7. lindseybp's Avatar
    Use the right cable and charger and all is good. That's it. This guy's Google plus post is getting blown out of proportion so badly. He's such a drama queen! :-)

    Posted via the Android Central App
    B0WIE likes this.
    04-22-2016 11:33 PM
  8. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    In other words, use the right cable. Perhaps, he's so caught up in his cable reviews and the recent attention he received that he spoke a little quickly, or too briefly, on the subject of the LG and HTC. I understand he wants to share information about USB C standards but I don't agree with taking jabs at manufacturers who find ways to safely hot-rod the existing format. (if I sound a bit snarky, it's because I see things like this in my line of work where well-meaning bloggers confuse consumers)
    Use the right cable and charger and all is good. That's it. This guy's Google plus post is getting blown out of proportion so badly. He's such a drama queen! :-)

    Posted via the Android Central App
    I disagree that it's being blown out of proportion. You'll note that Qualcomm did not comment on whether or not they are out of spec for USB-C. I think manufacturers adhering to specs is important since it will help the overall ecosystem (like when microUSB became the defacto connector). I also think that informing consumers is important, and Benson has been doing that in spades with his testing and championing of proper use of USB-C.

    I also believe that HTC (and LG) know what they're doing and would not purposely hurt the user experience in any meaningful way. But that does NOT mean that it will end up that way, and Benson hedged his bets by simply saying that violating the spec ONE way does not mean it doesn't violate the spec in OTHER (maybe unknown) ways.

    Getting a bit on the seedy side, I have to wonder why HTC opted for QC3 instead of USB Power Delivery. I suspect (but obviously can't confirm) that it was a bundle licensing deal. "If you use our chip you have to use QC3" or "If you use our chip we'll give you a huge discount on QC3 and look at how much faster it can charge! That's a better user experience!" Those kinds of things.

    I generally prefer for the more "open" standard to win out with things like this, since those are most likely not going to be tied to one particular OEM and there is less risk of any sort of "fragmenting" of the accessory market.
    04-25-2016 09:36 AM
  9. B0WIE's Avatar
    I disagree that it's being blown out of proportion. You'll note that Qualcomm did not comment on whether or not they are out of spec for USB-C. I think manufacturers adhering to specs is important since it will help the overall ecosystem (like when microUSB became the defacto connector). I also think that informing consumers is important, and Benson has been doing that in spades with his testing and championing of proper use of USB-C.

    I also believe that HTC (and LG) know what they're doing and would not purposely hurt the user experience in any meaningful way. But that does NOT mean that it will end up that way, and Benson hedged his bets by simply saying that violating the spec ONE way does not mean it doesn't violate the spec in OTHER (maybe unknown) ways.

    Getting a bit on the seedy side, I have to wonder why HTC opted for QC3 instead of USB Power Delivery. I suspect (but obviously can't confirm) that it was a bundle licensing deal. "If you use our chip you have to use QC3" or "If you use our chip we'll give you a huge discount on QC3 and look at how much faster it can charge! That's a better user experience!" Those kinds of things.

    I generally prefer for the more "open" standard to win out with things like this, since those are most likely not going to be tied to one particular OEM and there is less risk of any sort of "fragmenting" of the accessory market.
    What you're proposing, the "eco-system" for the sake of the echo system, limits progress. Quick Charge is a superior feature, that's why they went with it. They built above spec to make it work. Hooray technology. When Samsung does it, you'll likely see arguments against QC suddenly go mute.
    04-25-2016 10:39 AM
  10. Almeuit's Avatar
    I will say this from experience .. I just looked for cables reviewed by Benson and used them on my 6P. Never once ran into an issue from a "Benson Approved" cable .
    04-25-2016 10:51 AM
  11. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    What you're proposing, the "eco-system" for the sake of the echo system, limits progress. Quick Charge is a superior feature, that's why they went with it. They built above spec to make it work. Hooray technology. When Samsung does it, you'll likely see arguments against QC suddenly go mute.
    How exactly is it limiting progress? Nothing stopped Qualcomm from creating the tech or from OEM'S choosing to use it.

    That doesn't mean that it won't cause confusion in the marketplace. It already has judging by threads in this section. It also inherently limits the capability of the device by taking away features that should be present in the device (like fast charging while also transferring data). Those things might not matter RIGHT NOW but people will have this device for quite some time (years for a lot of people).
    04-25-2016 10:55 AM
  12. B0WIE's Avatar
    How exactly is it limiting progress? Nothing stopped Qualcomm from creating the tech or from OEM'S choosing to use it.
    If we limited USC strictly to the spec it was created on, then companies would need to develop entirely new cables and ports for QC and other advancements, which is pointless since they've made it possible by using a robust USB C.
    That doesn't mean that it won't cause confusion in the marketplace.
    When higher wattage incandescent lightbulbs came out, manufacturers created sockets to handle them using the same format. People figured it out, the world progressed.
    Speaker cables can sometimes look identical, but come is all different power ratings.
    When I go to fill my car with gas, both diesel and unleaded come from similar looking pumps that sit right beside each other. Yet, people figure it out and there is no marketplace confusion.

    QC 3.0 is a fantastic thing and I've no clue why people are so interested in creatively coming up with for hypothetical flaws other than the obvious (which I'll be polite about).
    04-25-2016 03:22 PM
  13. Bearcats98's Avatar
    If we limited USC strictly to the spec it was created on, then companies would need to develop entirely new cables and ports for QC and other advancements, which is pointless since they've made it possible by using a robust USB C.


    When higher wattage incandescent lightbulbs came out, manufacturers created sockets to handle them using the same format. People figured it out, the world progressed.
    Speaker cables can sometimes look identical, but come is all different power ratings.
    When I go to fill my car with gas, both diesel and unleaded come from similar looking pumps that sit right beside each other. Yet, people figure it out and there is no marketplace confusion.

    QC 3.0 is a fantastic thing and I've no clue why people are so interested in creatively coming up with for hypothetical flaws other than the obvious (which I'll be polite about).
    I will caveat your car analogy. They had to change the OD of the two nozzles between diesel and gas because people kept putting them in the wrong tank. ;-)
    thejesse likes this.
    04-25-2016 03:25 PM
  14. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    If we limited USC strictly to the spec it was created on, then companies would need to develop entirely new cables and ports for QC and other advancements, which is pointless since they've made it possible by using a robust USB C.


    When higher wattage incandescent lightbulbs came out, manufacturers created sockets to handle them using the same format. People figured it out, the world progressed.
    Speaker cables can sometimes look identical, but come is all different power ratings.
    When I go to fill my car with gas, both diesel and unleaded come from similar looking pumps that sit right beside each other. Yet, people figure it out and there is no marketplace confusion.

    QC 3.0 is a fantastic thing and I've no clue why people are so interested in creatively coming up with for hypothetical flaws other than the obvious (which I'll be polite about).
    It is not a hypothetical flaw that you can't have QC3 and data transfer simultaneously. When will this matter? As soon as PC motherboard makers start supporting USB Power Delivery instead of the proprietary and license-requiring QC3 (mobo makers are extremely cost conscious except at the high-end). Also, Android Auto.

    That also applies to any phone that uses microUSB and supports QC2 or some other version of it. But at least on those devices it's not violating the spec for the connector or cable (to my knowledge USB-2 does not have a voltage requirement to be spec compliant). If it does, then it's fair to say other devices also violate a USB spec, but it's also fair to say that there is already a fast charging spec that is ALSO spec compliant with the new standard USB connector that OEM's can use.

    I'm not sure why people are so interested in ignoring very real flaws other than the obvious (which I'll be polite about).
    04-25-2016 03:46 PM
  15. Almeuit's Avatar
    When higher wattage incandescent lightbulbs came out, manufacturers created sockets to handle them using the same format. People figured it out, the world progressed.
    Speaker cables can sometimes look identical, but come is all different power ratings.
    When I go to fill my car with gas, both diesel and unleaded come from similar looking pumps that sit right beside each other. Yet, people figure it out and there is no marketplace confusion.
    IMO .. Comparing a gas pump versus nerd-type tech stuff is a stretch by far. Many aren't as nerdy as us to notice things like this since you have to understand it fully. A gas pump is as simple as "Hey son, that one".
    04-25-2016 03:49 PM
  16. B0WIE's Avatar
    It is not a hypothetical flaw that you can't have QC3 and data transfer simultaneously. When will this matter? As soon as PC motherboard makers start supporting USB Power Delivery instead of the proprietary and license-requiring QC3 (mobo makers are extremely cost conscious except at the high-end). Also, Android Auto.

    That also applies to any phone that uses microUSB and supports QC2 or some other version of it. But at least on those devices it's not violating the spec for the connector or cable (to my knowledge USB-2 does not have a voltage requirement to be spec compliant). If it does, then it's fair to say other devices also violate a USB spec, but it's also fair to say that there is already a fast charging spec that is ALSO spec compliant with the new standard USB connector that OEM's can use.

    I'm not sure why people are so interested in ignoring very real flaws other than the obvious (which I'll be polite about).
    Again, you're talking about issues that don't exist or take a back seat to the benefits of an incredibly quick charge. I'll happily take QC3 in 2016 vs a slow charge because of a fear about what mobo manufacturers might do someday. No offense intended, but I really don't see anything compelling about your argument so I'll let this rest here.
    IMO .. Comparing a gas pump versus nerd-type tech stuff is a stretch by far. Many aren't as nerdy as us to notice things like this since you have to understand it fully. A gas pump is as simple as "Hey son, that one".
    People can certainly understand instructions to only use approved cables. As I said, if people can figure out light bulbs and speaker cables, they can figure out phone cables.
    04-25-2016 04:20 PM
  17. Almeuit's Avatar
    People can certainly understand instructions to only use approved cables. As I said, if people can figure out light bulbs and speaker cables, they can figure out phone cables.
    Of course they can if they're told .. but if they hop on Amazon and buy a random cable because it fits and it does damage (due to not having a friend in the "know") -- well that is another story.
    04-25-2016 04:25 PM
  18. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Again, you're talking about issues that don't exist or take a back seat to the benefits of an incredibly quick charge. I'll happily take QC3 in 2016 vs a slow charge because of a fear about what mobo manufacturers might do someday. No offense intended, but I really don't see anything compelling about your argument so I'll let this rest here.

    People can certainly understand instructions to only use approved cables. As I said, if people can figure out light bulbs and speaker cables, they can figure out phone cables.
    USB Power Delivery is not slow. It also has no downsides.

    You can be in denial, that's fine. The 10 has a functional deficiency compared to other devices with a fast charging technology.
    04-25-2016 04:34 PM
  19. Aquila's Avatar
    Of course they can if they're told .. but if they hop on Amazon and buy a random cable because it fits and it does damage (due to not having a friend in the "know") -- well that is another story.
    This is the problem. No one is informing the general public (as Kevin points out, even most nerds that want to know are confused) and they dont know that there is something they should know. They're not reading manuals and have no way of identifying their ignorance until something goes wrong. Not conforming to the standards is a HUGE mistake and Sammy's decision to roll out microUSB with QC on a 2016 phone compounds the problem by adding more confusion, not only in the public, but among oems about which features to promote, include and support and in which exact manner they choose to do so. This is a really easy concept and standard that oems and cable makers are stumbling all over. If the oems don't understand it, the general public definitely does not understand it. ... Buy as I said earlier, the general public doesn't even know there's something they should understand, let alone understand it.
    Almeuit likes this.
    04-25-2016 04:39 PM
  20. B0WIE's Avatar
    USB Power Delivery is not slow. It also has no downsides.

    You can be in denial, that's fine. The 10 has a functional deficiency compared to other devices with a fast charging technology.
    If you're going to act rude, that tells me you're out of valid points. If QC 3 fails you can feel validated. Until then, it's superior tech and I'm looking forward to it.
    04-25-2016 06:10 PM
  21. B0WIE's Avatar
    This is the problem. No one is informing the general public (as Kevin points out, even most nerds that want to know are confused) and they dont know that there is something they should know. They're not reading manuals and have no way of identifying their ignorance until something goes wrong. Not conforming to the standards is a HUGE mistake and Sammy's decision to roll out microUSB with QC on a 2016 phone compounds the problem by adding more confusion, not only in the public, but among oems about which features to promote, include and support and in which exact manner they choose to do so. This is a really easy concept and standard that oems and cable makers are stumbling all over. If the oems don't understand it, the general public definitely does not understand it. ... Buy as I said earlier, the general public doesn't even know there's something they should understand, let alone understand it.
    As far as HTC goes, the 10 isn't out yet so you'll have to wait to see if that argument will be valid. Regarding LG, I haven't followed but where are the failures this far? If the 10 fails to have documentation AND devices fail then there's certainly a point but a lot has to go wrong for that to come true.
    04-25-2016 06:14 PM
  22. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    If you're going to act rude, that tells me you're out of valid points. If QC 3 fails you can feel validated. Until then, it's superior tech and I'm looking forward to it.
    You are the first person I've seen in a very long time (granted, I don't post 100 times a day anymore) that is championing a feature that is actively deficient compared to other available features with such.....passion.

    If you recall, I said in my first reply in this thread that I'm sure HTC made sure that right now QC3 is not causing any user facing issues. At least, I have enough faith in HTC to believe that's the case. My issue is with how this will pan out in the future, since we know that more devices will come out that DO support the Power Delivery spec and the 10 won't work correctly with those.

    Makes me wonder about compatibility with other accessories as well. We know that JBL is making some USB-C powered headphones which I'm sure will work great. My curiosity is piqued because that would imply that they need to have a custom power delivery mechanism for those headphones OR sending power OUT OF the port is perfectly fine and the only issue is with charging.
    04-25-2016 06:40 PM
  23. Aquila's Avatar
    As far as HTC goes, the 10 isn't out yet so you'll have to wait to see if that argument will be valid. Regarding LG, I haven't followed but where are the failures this far? If the 10 fails to have documentation AND devices fail then there's certainly a point but a lot has to go wrong for that to come true.
    My argument wasn't that something was good or bad, it's that almost no one knows anything and very few people are trying to change that. When you shop for a replacement cable on Amazon, there's nothing to indicate what's compatible and safe with your device except maybe reviews.... which most people dont read or ignore in favor of price.

    What the phone supports is 10% of the problem. Because the phone assumes you're only ever going to use the cable and block that came in the box it that you'll by a replacement of it from them directly. Dumb assumptions but that's the limit of their control in this environment. The next 20% is that charger oems don't know what to do. The next 50% is that the public doesn't understand anything about what is going on, not even enough to understand that there is a gap in their knowledge. The final 20% is the first solvable one that negates the other 80% and makes this one easily solvable issue: development of, commitment to a spec and adherence to quality control and development within the industry standard specs.

    That doesn't inhibit development, it puts boundaries on what the limits of risk are. I have offered no opinions on which particular technologies are the best and it'd be dumb for any of us to do so, because the final specs aren't ready to know what is and isn't going to work. The one thing that can be safely said is that using blocks and cables that oversupply with a phone that doesn't limit properly can cause damage and that's one heck of a good reason to not provide or support blocks and cables that are outside of the guidelines - even if the makers of those blocks and cables think it is on because the device can limit current.
    04-25-2016 06:57 PM
  24. Aquila's Avatar
    As far as HTC goes, the 10 isn't out yet so you'll have to wait to see if that argument will be valid. Regarding LG, I haven't followed but where are the failures this far? If the 10 fails to have documentation AND devices fail then there's certainly a point but a lot has to go wrong for that to come true.
    The existence of documentation, even if it goes beyond, "never use charging blocks and cables other than those provided by HTC" wouldn't do anything to educate the public when they're trying to mix and match components at lowest cause in an unregulated third party economy. The existence of information doesn't mean people know it and understand it. I called out a need for standards and education, not a warning label. Huuuuuuuge difference
    04-25-2016 07:00 PM
  25. Aquila's Avatar
    If you're going to act rude, that tells me you're out of valid points. If QC 3 fails you can feel validated. Until then, it's superior tech and I'm looking forward to it.
    Wait... that's not how logic works. The new hypothesis has to be substantiated, not assumed true until proven false. The exact opposite is in fact the way it works. You assume the new hypothesis is not true, try to falsify it and only when you've eliminated most reasonable alternatives can it then be said to be supported by the evidence. In this case... there's been no statement of evidence to back up QC3 as being "superior tech" and there is, in fact, evidence to suggest that it is not. So we should assume it is inferior until it is established as a point of fact that, due to the weight of evidence, QC3 is superior.
    04-25-2016 07:26 PM
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