Doze, Samsung Optimize, Greenify, and the "Bad" Ones: Battery Life

[KPMcClave]

I just read a helpful article from a few months back, outlining the differences between the Doze feature in Android Marshmallow, and the features of the third party Greenify app. It's a touch outdated with added features to Greenify since, but gives a good overview:

https://www.androidpit.com/greenify-vs-doze-android-marshmallow

That's a jumping off point for several questions I have about features and apps as they relate to conserving battery.

Doze is of benefit when your phone is still and the screen is off for long periods (as in overnight while you're sleeping). I charge my phone overnight, as I figure many do, so Doze is of little practical importance to me.

It's fairly well known that in modern Android, "task killing" apps are counter-productive (and some like Clean Master have become notorious for ethical issues tied to ads and security).

The built in Samsung Optimize feature (Settings > Battery > More in upper left corner) seems to promise similar things as Clean Master and other third party "task killer" apps.

So, is Samsung Optimize counter-productive?

Why is Greenify seen as a great app, and not counter-productive? How is what it does in shutting things down that are running in the background different from what "task killing" apps like CM claim to do?

For those of us looking to maximize battery without costing the features we want and need to use, is there benefit to using both Optimize and Greenify. Should we only use one or the other? Or neither?

Clean Master and those types of "task killing" apps seem to have been shamed in to obsolescence in forums like this (though I'm sure are still widely used by the public at large). Greenify, to me, seems as though it would potentially also be counter-productive (though clean in reputation) in modern Android. I'd like to know why it isn't...or maybe start the conversation that it actually is. People certainly hold on to old technology "truths" for far too long (I'm lookin' at you battery experts!).

At any rate, I'm looking for some clarity in wringing out the most battery I can, with or without these features and apps.

I appreciate everyone's anecdotal experiences, but I'd also appreciate a more widespread set of data, if you've run across any blogs or articles of that sort.

 

[Rukbat]

1. CM wasn't "shamed into obsolescence, it was excoriated for being a Windows app running on Android. You don't WANT to kill apps manually (or with an app-killing app) in Android, because YOU don't know which other apps are going to need parts of it. Processes aren't apps. In Windows, when you kill a program, you don't kill its dlls. If Android, when you kill an app, you kill its processes.

Greenify? If just keep apps from popping up when THEY think they should run. Tap an app and it runs. Pretty battery saving. Just Greenify any non-asynchrounous apps. Email? It has to receive email when it comes, so don't. A UPS-tracker? It's only useful when you're running it, so Greenify it - unless you want push notifications from UPS, then don't.

BTW, in his battery saving article, 20% is a bit rough on batteries. 40%, maybe. 50% is the ideal recharge point. 20% is the ideal "buy a lot of batteries" point. His #13? Maybe. But some apps (and I mean you, Maps) get so "improved" that they get useless for 4 or 5 versions. #9 doesn't explain - use the carrier with the strongest signal where you use your phone. A weak signal, even if the phone is sitting in your pocket, costs battery. So not just "another carrier", "a better carrier", better meaning a stronger signal.

 

[Rumblee1]

I was getting great battery life without any added apps on my S7 edge. But I read an article on greenify that absolutely shows what it adds to the phone what doze doesn't. Im not sure what, exactly that is, but i will tell you that i noticed an even better battery life experience with greenify. Im never below 50 % at bedtime now with greenify. Im a moderate user. Prior to adding greenify, i would be in the low 40% bracket.

Posted via Android Central App

 

[KPMcClave]

I was getting great battery life without any added apps on my S7 edge. But I read an article on greenify that absolutely shows what it adds to the phone what doze doesn't. Im not sure what, exactly that is, but i will tell you that i noticed an even better battery life experience with greenify. Im never below 50 % at bedtime now with greenify. Im a moderate user. Prior to adding greenify, i would be in the low 40% bracket.

Posted via Android Central App

The article I linked in my OP explains what Greenify adds above Doze (although it was written before a new quick doze feature in Greenify).

Doze, for me, is pretty useless because the times it will kick in, my phone will be plugged in while I sleep. If you leave your phone off the charger overnight, Doze is a good thing for you.

 

[KPMcClave]

1. CM wasn't "shamed into obsolescence, it was excoriated for being a Windows app running on Android. You don't WANT to kill apps manually (or with an app-killing app) in Android, because YOU don't know which other apps are going to need parts of it. Processes aren't apps. In Windows, when you kill a program, you don't kill its dlls. If Android, when you kill an app, you kill its processes.

I know why apps like CM shouldn't be used in modern Android (unlike Windows it functions best when using as much RAM as it can). My "shaming" comment was more about seeing occasional questions in these forums about it and similar apps. You don't tend to see those much anymore. And a lot of that had to do with alleged sketchy privacy issues by the developers of the CM app. So, the outcry was two-fold.

 

[KPMcClave]

I think the differences between Doze and Greenify are pretty obvious, and that they don't do the same things, *practically* speaking.

What are the differences between Samsung Optimize and Greenify?

What are the differences between Clean Master, etc. and Samsung Optimize?

What are the differences between Clean Master, etc. and Greenify?

I think those 3 questions are at the heart of what I'm trying to get at. There's a reason that a lot of people swear by Greenify and swear at "task killers" like Clean Master (and especially CM for its additional issues).

 

[meyerweb#CB]

Samsung optimize, as I understand it (and maybe I'm wrong), basically prevents the apps from doing background operations (including syncing, notifications, etc.) if you haven't used the app in several days. It won't prevent other apps from waking an "optimized" app if its services are needed for something else. Similar to Greenify, but I believe Greenify prevents an app from doing anything until you, the user, open the app. Greenify goes a step further. It's as if the app is disabled until you open it.

Clean Master, I'm pretty sure, does nothing to prevent an app from running, accessing or providing services, or restarting. All it does is close apps and remove them from RAM. The OS could restart the app 1 second later, and CM won't prevent it.

 

[optimummind]

Re: Doze, Samsung Optimize, Greenify, and the "Bad" Ones: Battery Life

When I first started using Android in 2012, I initially used RAM booster apps that promised to increase performance & battery life. Not too long after, I realized through personal experience using such apps & reading about them, that there wasn't much, if any, battery savings involved.

The true battery killers were mostly GPS, bad signal quality, background data caused by rogue apps, and wakelocks keeping the phone active and preventing deep sleep (and now Doze starting from marshmallow).

Prior to using GS6E (and Samsung Pay), I used to root all my phones to installed Xposed & its battery-saving modules such as Greenify & Amplify. And they really helped with battery life. Greenify by hibernating those apps with excessive background activity & preventing their restart and Amplify with its ability to cut off or massively slow down the rate of wakelocks.

Since I don't root anymore so I can use Samsung Pay, I turn to apps like Greenify & ForceDoze that work even without root but through adb activation. They have made a trmendous difference to my battery life by keeping my awake percentage below 5% which leads to great standby battery drain rate which in turn leads to higher SOT.

 

[KPMcClave]

Samsung optimize, as I understand it (and maybe I'm wrong), basically prevents the apps from doing background operations (including syncing, notifications, etc.) if you haven't used the app in several days. It won't prevent other apps from waking an "optimized" app if its services are needed for something else. Similar to Greenify, but I believe Greenify prevents an app from doing anything until you, the user, open the app. Greenify goes a step further. It's as if the app is disabled until you open it.

Clean Master, I'm pretty sure, does nothing to prevent an app from running, accessing or providing services, or restarting. All it does is close apps and remove them from RAM. The OS could restart the app 1 second later, and CM won't prevent it.

Yours has been my general understanding as well, meyerweb, I wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly, and gain any new info that may be true now that wasn't in the past (i.e. Greenify has the experimental Aggressive Doze feature now, etc.). Plus, the info in one place like this may help others.

I still wonder if both Greenify and Samsung Optimize are useful together. It seems Greenify would take care of the hibernation long before we'd get to the point where Optimize would do that. Am I missing something? I guess that only matters if Optimize is doubling efforts unnecessarily, and is using resources we don't then need to use. Maybe I'm missing something, though. Thoughts?

The other lingering question I have is related to the debunking of task killer apps as using more resources than they save, because they have to restart when you want to use them. Obviously, in your example of an app that immediately restarts itself (system apps, Facebook's app from Hell), onandoffandonandoff will waste resources. However, what about an app that just stays off with a task killer? Why is it that Greenify turning that off is seen as so much better (the reputations of the apps in question are not even close). Isn't the phone using extra resources to restart those apps in Greenify, too? Again, I realize I very well may be missing something obvious here.

I should point out that I'm not trying to advocate for task killers. I think it might come across that way a bit and that's not at all the case. I'm more trying to get to the heart of why Greenify is seen as so radically different, and if Optimize is unnecessary if Greenify is used.

 

[KPMcClave]

OK, I've reinstalled Greenify with Donation add on. I'm not rooted (Verizon S7E).

I've had it installed several times before and have not really kept it installed for very long. While I admittedly didn't give it a lengthy period of time to work, in the time it did work I didn't notice any significant gain in battery life previously.

I intend to leave it for a month, live my life, and see how the numbers look after a month of Greenify use.

This is what my stats have looked like for the past month+, since doing a FDR and resetting the GSam stats after restore/re-setup on April 13th (for the first month with the S7E I had ~45 minutes less overall and about the same SoT as the past month captured below):



Generally speaking, no complaints with that battery life as it is now. FYI, I gained ~20 minutes overall since the recent Verizon update. SoT is almost identical to before the update.

 

[orlans21]

I'd like to know if i could turn off samsung optimize and just stick to greenify force doze. I wonder if the 2 features conflict each other

 

[_BIG_]

without root doesnt greenify just act as a constant task killer?
whatever isnt whitelisted gets killed as soon as it starts?

ive tried greenify but never for more than a few weeks due to when i greenify things half of them show as running again within a few minutes. also without root isnt it only manual mode and not automatic? (you have to hit the greenify button to hibernate things)?

ive also tried shutapp and the doze app. the doze app ive kept installed for months now but i havent watched to see if its a benifit or not. it works by throwing up a vpn when the phone is idle or screen off and prevents apps listed from using data then disables the vpn when the screen comes on.

my s7e has decent battery life, not great or amazing but i have a lot of apps installed and have gone through every app setting and phone setting to optimize what runs to my uses. id like to squeeze as much battery as i can (i mean who wouldnt)

 

[KPMcClave]

I'd like to know if i could turn off samsung optimize and just stick to greenify force doze. I wonder if the 2 features conflict each other

I'm thinking they don't conflict. It's more a matter of doing the same thing, making one of them unnecessary (probably Optimize). This is one of the questions on which I'm looking for clarity, since I would assume disabling/uninstalling one of them would save some resources.

As of now, I still have both active.

 

[KPMcClave]

without root doesnt greenify just act as a constant task killer?
whatever isnt whitelisted gets killed as soon as it starts?

ive tried greenify but never for more than a few weeks due to when i greenify things half of them show as running again within a few minutes. also without root isnt it only manual mode and not automatic? (you have to hit the greenify button to hibernate things)?

The "is it doing more than a task killer" question is the other remaining question on which I'm seeking clarity (more in depth version of that upthread). I know it isn't exactly the same, but is it different enough to not cause similar issues as task killers. It must re-start things when you want to use them just as task killer killed apps. Seems that would cause similar issues as task killers.

You can have the newest version of Greenify auto-hibernate. You can't do that with the more secure security locks enabled, though (i.e. fingerprints). It requires "insecure key-guard" (i.e. swipe lock).

Alternatively, you can create a homescreen shortcut for Hibernate and Lock. When using that, you must unlock the screen the next time via a PIN instead of fingerprint.

So, I just have the Hibernate (without lock) shortcut on my homescreen (because I want to use fingerpints to unlock), and the currently experimental "Aggressive Doze" feature enabled.

 

[meyerweb#CB]

The other lingering question I have is related to the debunking of task killer apps as using more resources than they save, because they have to restart when you want to use them. Obviously, in your example of an app that immediately restarts itself (system apps, Facebook's app from Hell), onandoffandonandoff will waste resources. However, what about an app that just stays off with a task killer? Why is it that Greenify turning that off is seen as so much better (the reputations of the apps in question are not even close). Isn't the phone using extra resources to restart those apps in Greenify, too? Again, I realize I very well may be missing something obvious here.

What you're missing, I think, is that in general it's not apps that restart themselves, it's Android.

Linux OS's, including Android, attempt to maximize the use of memory by keeping frequently used apps in memory, so they can be rapidly accessed the next time you use them, instead of having to load them from disk (or the phone equivalent: ROM). If a task killer shuts down an app that you've recently used, or frequently used, Android is likely to just reload it right away. If it doesn't reload that app, it will load something else into the "empty" memory.

Nature, and Android, abhor a vacuum (empty RAM). Most apps don't really "run" in the background. They're inactive, just occupying storage so they can be restarted rapidly. Since empty RAM isn't useful, Android is going to keep your RAM filled up as best it can. Killing apps to "free up" RAM is therefore counterproductive.

Now then, as to your question of why Greenify is different, that's a good question. If Greenify marks the RAM used by the Greenified as free, Android is likely to load something into there anyway.

 

[wu-wei]

I only use Greenify for the Aggressive Doze mode. Since it uses the same white list as Optimize, I'm not really worried about whether the functions overlap.

 

[KPMcClave]

What you're missing, I think, is that in general it's not apps that restart themselves, it's Android.

Linux OS's, including Android, attempt to maximize the use of memory by keeping frequently used apps in memory, so they can be rapidly accessed the next time you use them, instead of having to load them from disk (or the phone equivalent: ROM). If a task killer shuts down an app that you've recently used, or frequently used, Android is likely to just reload it right away. If it doesn't reload that app, it will load something else into the "empty" memory.

Nature, and Android, abhor a vacuum (empty RAM). Most apps don't really "run" in the background. They're inactive, just occupying storage so they can be restarted rapidly. Since empty RAM isn't useful, Android is going to keep your RAM filled up as best it can. Killing apps to "free up" RAM is therefore counterproductive.

Now then, as to your question of why Greenify is different, that's a good question. If Greenify marks the RAM used by the Greenified as free, Android is likely to load something into there anyway.

No, I knew the info in the first 3 paragraphs. It's good for others who may not know that aleady, though.

It's *because* I know that stuff that I'm asking why Greenify is different.

 

[KPMcClave]

I only use Greenify for the Aggressive Doze mode. Since it uses the same white list as Optimize, I'm not really worried about whether the functions overlap.

I'm not worried if they overlap, unless I can save some resources by disabling one (likely Optimize). Assuming they do fully overlap (which is my hunch).

 

[wu-wei]

Re: Doze, Samsung Optimize, Greenify, and the "Bad" Ones: Battery Life

I'm not worried if they overlap, unless I can save some resources by disabling one (likely Optimize). Assuming they do fully overlap (which is my hunch).

That's my hunch as well, however wouldn't disabling Optimize also disable the white list feature? I am willing to leave Optimize to do its own business, and I'd rather Greenify follow those same rules when forcing aggressive doze.

Side note, but while reviewing my whitelist I also noticed that all apps installed after I enabled Optimize were automatically placed on blacklist. That's one of those settings (in Optimize) that I'm likely to forget about revisiting every time I try out an app.

 

[meyerweb#CB]

No, I knew the info in the first 3 paragraphs. It's good for others who may not know that aleady, though.

It's *because* I know that stuff that I'm asking why Greenify is different.

Yes, that's a good question. I used Greenify on a rooted device previously, and the benefit (to me), was that if I had an app (or apps) that was really a battery hog I could prevent it from running except when I really needed it. I didn't try to greenify everything, just those apps that seemed to use a lot of battery in the background (Facebook, for example, although I don't use that app). So if Android reused the memory for something which was actually suspended in the background, that was OK.

If, as someone suggested, on a non-rooted phone it doesn't prevent a greenified app from restarting, then the only value I see is the instant Doze feature. But that's not something I want. Just because I set my phone down on my desk doesn't mean I want to stop getting notifications.