Audio Quality

[Tf407]

You need to read more carefully. I said "He said it was one of the worst". I also said that overall I was very happy with the phone. And who said it rates as "excellent"? The "context" I gave was a video review from a very respected and well know review site. How is any of this misleading?

You said "the audio quality on phone calls is one of the worst I have ever seen"

Then you proceeded to quote him saying it proved what you have been saying about the phone. He said was worst audio quality and you agreed fully with his statement


So yeah, you did


I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. Simply stated a little context would have gone a long way for those on the fence because I can assure you that the audio quality on the pixel is not "the worst I have ever seen".

Assuming you've seen audio quality on flip phones or Android phones from 7 years ago? It just seems a little bit much is all

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

There's a long winded debate! I fall into the category that if you can hear a difference it is measurable.

To each their own... And luckily, all snapdragons use the same DAC this generation barring the v20 and select others but those are third party. Snapdragon internal DAC is still the same

But GSMArena does not measure any of those things that would relate to the sonic differences. That's why it appears that the Pixel would match the V20, when that's clearly not going to be the case with the hardware the V20 is using (plus my unscientific method of comparing how I remember the Note 7 sounding versus how the V20 sounds).

Also, not all Snapdragon 820/821 devices use Aqstic. The S7/S7e for example do not.

 

[akin_t]

Snapdragon claims they use the same aqstic codec for high quality audio too.

https://www.qualcomm.com/news/snapdragon/2016/10/04/pixel-phones-made-google-powered-snapdragon-821



Now, the resistance of the headphone jack is higher which really just means lower potential output. But the voltage was also measured at ~.5V vs the claimed 1.2V of the HTC 10. I think that's just inherent to not having the amp to coincide. However, in the software settings one guy find a hi vs low out setting. Once he changed the software value to high output he said it now sounds like his HTC 10.

That's indicative to pixel and HTC 10 hardware being the same as it came from snapdragon... But with different licensing for its application

Lol, the mental gymnastics some of you perform to confirm what you hope is straight out embarrassing.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

Lol, the mental gymnastics some of you perform to confirm what you hope is straight out embarrassing.

Ironic.

Think what you want but I'm only confirming that the DAC and implementation is the same as the HTC 10. The op claimed otherwise.

My other comments only confirm that the amp output is different. The op and others claim it's terrible.

The original YouTube video author claimed it was a 16 bit DAC and didn't offer any information to support his opinion. He clearly doesn't have a clue and there's nothing in this thread really but confirmation bias.

Edit: here's a group talking about it...

https://m.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/55y61n/it_looks_like_the_pixel_will_have_the_htc_10s_dac/

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

Ironic.

Think what you want but I'm only confirming that the DAC and implementation is the same as the HTC 10. The op claimed otherwise.

My other comments only confirm that the amp output is different. The op and others claim it's terrible.

The original YouTube video author claimed it was a 16 bit DAC and didn't offer any information to support his opinion. He clearly doesn't have a clue and there's nothing in this thread really but confirmation bias.

Seems that some people equate volume to quality. The same way some equate punchy, over saturated colors to a quality display.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

I think you're right. In all the tests I've ever seen comparing amps and DACs, volume is a large contributor to perception

 

[akin_t]

Ironic.

Think what you want but I'm only confirming that the DAC and implementation is the same as the HTC 10. The op claimed otherwise.

My other comments only confirm that the amp output is different. The op and others claim it's terrible.

The original YouTube video author claimed it was a 16 bit DAC and didn't offer any information to support his opinion. He clearly doesn't have a clue and there's nothing in this thread really but confirmation bias.

Edit: here's a group talking about it...

https://m.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/55y61n/it_looks_like_the_pixel_will_have_the_htc_10s_dac/

I'm speaking more about 'the hardware is the same'. Yes the DAC is identical, but the amp is not, and it's not as simple as applying a gain over the entire baseband.

We have no idea if the frequency response of the amp is white/flat or colored, if it's colored we have no idea where. You can't just attribute that to 'oh the only difference is volume'. I've listened to music from the HTC 10, the Pixel XL, the Note 7 ... The HTC 10 has a better implementation than just higher gain.

Furthermore, the HTC 10 allows you to create an EQ of sorts for each channel of your favorite headphones so that lows, highs and mids for each ear are to your liking. Again, think what you want, but HTC is serious about audio. The Pixel implementation is nowhere identical.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

I'm speaking more about 'the hardware is the same'. Yes the DAC is identical, but the amp is not, and it's not as simple as applying a gain over the entire baseband.

We have no idea if the frequency response of the amp is white/flat or colored, if it's colored we have no idea where. You can't just attribute that to 'oh the only difference is volume'. I've listened to music from the HTC 10, the Pixel XL, the Note 7 ... The HTC 10 has a better implementation than just higher gain.

Furthermore, the HTC 10 allows you to create an EQ of sorts for each channel of your favorite headphones so that lows, highs and mids for each ear are to your liking. Again, think what you want, but HTC is serious about audio. The Pixel implementation is nowhere identical.

Thinking from an industrial standpoint if I were Qualcomm I would provide the same manufactured hardware to everybody and license the differences. Did you notice they refer to aqstic as a codec?

HTC just paid for access to higher quality application of the same hardware. I'm with you... Tuning and tweaking hardware is a big deal. That's why a processor is a must these days imo. But I say that loosely... Mini DSP is phenomenal.

I use a JBL ms-8 in my application because my time is worth more to me these days and there isn't enough to warrant Rew measurements and everything else that goes with tuning.

But with that said... Pixel isn't horrible.

 

[akin_t]

Thinking from an industrial standpoint if I were Qualcomm I would provide the same manufactured hardware to everybody and license the differences. Did you notice they refer to aqstic as a codec?

HTC just paid for access to higher quality application of the same hardware. I'm with you... Tuning and tweaking hardware is a big deal. That's why a processor is a must these days imo. But I say that loosely... Mini DSP is phenomenal.

I use a JBL ms-8 in my application because my time is worth more to me these days and there isn't enough to warrant Rew measurements and everything else that goes with tuning.

But with that said... Pixel isn't horrible.

Honestly I agree that the Pixel isn't bad. Most smartphone audio is in fact quite decent paired with the right headphones. It's the whole 80/20 rule.

The HTC 10 is only like 20% better but it requires 80% more effort to get there. Considering that most people aren't exactly obnoxious audiophiles, most manufacturers don't bother with all the extra work.

I do wish manufacturers paid more attention to audio though. It's such a silly place to cut costs considering some of us actually consider audio significantly before we buy a phone.

I wish audio got the same love that cameras got.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

I agree. One thing I do is keep the volume down and allow the gain of my processor to do it's job. As long as you keep the DAC in its operating threshold it should be good enough.

Total output suffers for headphone users though. I prefer high sensitivity headphones to remedy those issues with lower performing amps

 

[OMGLadyGaga]

Ironic.

Think what you want but I'm only confirming that the DAC and implementation is the same as the HTC 10. The op claimed otherwise.

My other comments only confirm that the amp output is different. The op and others claim it's terrible.

The original YouTube video author claimed it was a 16 bit DAC and didn't offer any information to support his opinion. He clearly doesn't have a clue and there's nothing in this thread really but confirmation bias.

Edit: here's a group talking about it...

https://m.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/55y61n/it_looks_like_the_pixel_will_have_the_htc_10s_dac/

The thing is, they aren't using the same hardware. Yes the HTC 10 is using a separate amp which gives it the huge power advantage in headroom. The implementation of the DAC is also key, you can have a great dac with crappy implementation. HTC 10 nailed it. Output impedance on the pixel is much higher than the HTC 10. I mean, they're not in the same league. It doesn't sound awful by any means but for someone like me who cares about audio it just doesn't cut it especially for that price.

 

[ggendel]

Two DAC's can measure exactly the same on the GSMArena charts, but sound completely different in real life.

This reminds me of "demo" mode for TVs. In that mode, the colors would be more saturated and the brightness higher than "normal" viewing mode. Most manufacturers did this to make their TV look "better" than the others at the store (but unnatural for normal viewing). In audio, you can do the same thing with just minor tweaks in volume and frequency response. Speaker manufacturers know this and would boost the low end or high end depending upon whether they were demoing on the East or West coast because of local preferences. This is one of the most significant problems when doing subjective testing, making sure you're doing an unbiased comparison. A small difference in volume can result one sounding "better" than the other.

When I don't have a good way to do a good comparison, I fall back on a "fatigue" test... How long can you listen before you tire of it? If there is some subtle problem in the sound, then your sub-conscience will find it and you will tire quicker. I have a large assortment of earbuds and headphones and it's interesting that some that initially sound more accurate sometimes have a higher fatigue factor than ones less accurate. Bottom line, stick with the setup you can enjoy listening to in a long session and you won't be disappointed.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

This is neat... Finally found the XDA thread where they really get into audio. I admit I didn't look too hard earlier today...

http://forum.xda-developers.com/pixel-xl/how-to/headphone-output-objective-data-audio-t3488211

Test Equipment
The device under test (DUT) is a*Pixel*XL that sports a*Qualcomm*WCD9335 codec/amp*discrete audio chip. Theheadphone*output is split with a*Y-wire. One signal path goes into the measurement rig, a*Rohde & Schwarz UPV Audio Analyzer. Depending on the measurement, the other end either stays open (not connected or N/C) or connected to my*Sennheiser IE800*IEMs. Those IEMs have a virtually frequency-independent impedance of 16 Ohm, a sensitivity of 125 dB/Vrms at 1 kHz, and a ruler-flat phase response. These IEMs are not only one of the best "sounding"*headphones*I know, but actually*very*easy to drive as the specs that I've listed suggest.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/pixel-xl/how-to/headphone-output-objective-data-audio-t3488211/page3

Small update. Now that I have rooted my*Pixel*I've started looking into the effects of mixer_paths.xml modifications:

As suspected,*full 1 Vrms*output voltage can easily be unlocked by modifying two numbers in mixer_paths.xml (RX1/2 Mix Digital Volume 77 -> 84 in the "headphones" device). That should satisfy those of you who think the Pixel's amplifier is not "powerful" enough.

Simply replacing CLS_H_LOHIFI with CLS_H_HIFI has*no measurable*effect. I have not studied the kernel driver enough to make further comments.

Disabling the compander and keeping analog gain low does have a beneficial effect on noise floor (also expected). However, I did not expect to see non-harmonic distortion (THD) fluctuating "erratically" with changing digital gain. I will have to go through a suite of measurements by varying frequency and digital gains to pin down the cause.

 

[ihbsbA]

Do we have an app recommendation to boost call volume?

 

[Matty]

This confirms what I have been saying about the audio quality. He said it was one of the worst. That conforms with my observations. I am really sad about this. I like most everything else about the phone. BTW, the audio volume on phone calls is the worst I have ever seen. I have it all the way to max, and it is barely usable in a quiet environment. Out on a loud street corner - forget it. I knew when they didn't mention audio quality in the original presentation that it would suck. Why couldn't they just let HTC design it. What a missed opportunity...

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_nWheqE3T0

No wonder people are buying a LG V20. its because they want that 1st Class audio experience. ^_^
I know people who own Pixels and they seem to be happy with them. Maybe its just because they haven't heard any better?

Personally for me, its a very small issue. i don't make phone calls often and music is generally played through the radio. But for some i can see it being a hassle.

 

[Rumblee1]

No wonder people are buying a LG V20. its because they want that 1st Class audio experience. ^_^
I know people who own Pixels and they seem to be happy with them. Maybe its just because they haven't heard any better?

Personally for me, its a very small issue. i don't make phone calls often and music is generally played through the radio. But for some i can see it being a hassle.

Want a first class audio experience and spen hundreds less, read the reviews about the ZTE axon 7. The best sounding smartphone out there. On headphones too. If you want a backup phone for music listening, get the Axon 7 mini. Same dolby atmos, and high quality amps

 

[billykac]

1800Collect:

Thanks for the Head-Fi article.
Lunchtime reading.

I spent time yesterday playing FLACS and mp3's on my Pixel, in a quiet listening environment with wired in-ears, wired cans and BT in-ears. Each was different, as expected. Each was excellent, IMO. Had to go a tad higher on the gain to drive the cans, but even they were pushing serious volume at about 75%. The wired in-ears are more efficient and are easily-driven. Very happy with Pixel audio.

 

[D13H4RD2L1V3]

Basically, it's functional and will do the job fine.

But audio snobs might want something punchier.

Still, maybe Pixel 2017? More disappointed at how the Pixel records mono audio in video.

 

[anon(470989)]

Here's a neat test

How Well Can You Hear Audio Quality? : The Record : NPR

Thanks for this! Surprisingly enough, I thought all the samples were just fine, and was all over the board in my choices. I guess this means I either am a person that can't discern quality audio or I need better headphones lol.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

Thanks for this! Surprisingly enough, I thought all the samples were just fine, and was all over the board in my choices. I guess this means I either am a person that can't discern quality audio or I need better headphones lol.

Truthfully... Nobody is able to discern substantial differences. I don't know anybody who's been able to pass that test consistently. I know a few self proclaimed audiophiles that couldn't pass it.

There's so much snake oil in the audio industry. We're taught all these different perceptions. The truth is that our ear sensitivity changes based on circumstance and habit. Temperature can effect passive crossovers, mechanical efficiency of a speaker, the way another surface deals with reflections, etc, etc.

There's different ways of handling all these issues but many individuals become perfectionists. And I do believe it's hard work that isn't tangible in most scenarios but borne out of bad marketing or bad science. I do consider myself an individual that wants the absolute best audio i can achieve in a given situation but I like to also believe I'm much more realistic and objective as well.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

The*Richard Clark Amp Challenge*is a listening test intended to show that as long as a modern audio amplifier is operated within its linear range (below*clipping),*the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear. Because thousands of people have taken the test, the test is significant to the audiophile debate over audibility of amplifier differences. This document was written to summarize what the test is, and answer common questions about the test. Richard Clark was not involved in writing this document.

Edit:

In the end, I'm probably kind of a jerk. I just don't buy into a lot of the arguments that take place around the net... The quality of the pixel audio for example. Now, more than ever, I do believe there are differences in amplifiers and hardware setups but I also believe that if you're using them within their performance envelope, tone and other nuances can be altered to match personal preference