Bad Wi-Fi Range

[markdek]

P.S. I suspect the Evo is so new and w/ the 3g and 4g connections easily available, that there are a lot of people that have not even tried wifi yet, or haven't noticed yet, or that are making connections so close to their routers that it is not a problem.

If so, this would indeed suggest a chipset issue. But, I would also assume that the engineers built in mechanisms in both the hardware and software to make adjustments for such potential issues via software; if not, I just don't know what to say. Perhaps I shouldn't have switched my major from Electrical Engineering to Geology many years ago....lol .....by the by.....I am getting close to deciding to return the Evo for the following reasons:

1. Not confident that Sprint/HTC will in deed upgrade to Froyo/2.2; there may be technical/financial or other issues.
2. And related to 2.1/2.2, I"m not happy about the measly amount of internal memory available for apps(rom). The supposed 1gb, is really about 427mb, and perhaps less, because of the OS, Sense, and open space for Cache. Even the Incredible has >700mb; check out the rom planned for the Galaxy S.....I'm thinking of future games, onboard nav/gps, and other apps that need space/cache.
3. Battery sucks...(I really think it's an inherent CDMA power/connection issue, that cannot be resolved)
4. WiFi sucks
5. Lastly, based on the above, we paid a premium for, perhaps, a not so revolutionary phone. This phone might not have a very long lifespan. I thing putting UI's on top of Android will be a thing of the past very soon. I complicates upgrades, and degrades performance. ROM will likely increase, as it is on the iPhone, to accommodate "rich" apps, not just internet Tools.

I'm really sorry about this Rant..........I just got worked up.... peace.

 

[dcgrand]

@markdek

Hi searched a little more on this. And as I mentioned before that the iPad is having similar issues. Apple has also acknowledged the problem and issued the following work around:

iPad: Issues connecting to Wi-Fi networks

Now it might also work for the evo because bot the ipad and evo use the same wifi chip as i mentioned before.

Do you have a wireless n router?

Also other people having this issue please try the workarounds/fixes apple mentions and tell us whether it helps or not.

@dcgrand .....your Linksys theory doesn't work for me. I've studied and "tested" this issue to death (and the short battery life too). I've done testing on Linksys routers. Fact is for me, signal strengths are ~15db (or dbm) lower on the Evo wifi than any other wifi hardware I could get my hands on to test. Also, transfer speeds at equivalent distances are less on the Evo. The Evo also reaches a distance, which varies depending on walls, etc., where the connection is either lost or cannot be made; and that distance is much much short than all the other hardware tested.

I can't comment on the iPad issue...I didn't follow it as I don't own one....and I don't care, as this is HTC's issue.

The poor wifi connectively issue that concerns me the most is overall lower file transfer speeds, additional wasted power, inability to connect to, or connect at sufficient speeds @ public APs, like coffee shops, and also work, home, etc. I do not want to transfer videos music, and other large file via wifi @ 11Mbps, if I should be getting 54Mbps. I also want to connect to APs that are more than 15 to 25 feet away, as needed.

This is especially important too as, who knows, Sprint may add bandwidth limits sometime, and we may want to defer to the wifi for it's bandwidth to our cable broadband connection.

 

[dcgrand]

LOL @markdek, if you are an EE you should have know better not to buy first release of electronic hardware

Come on if you look at the smart phones these days they are so complex that unless you exhaustively test it some problems are going to come up once the first lot of guinea pigs test it out. And testing exhaustively is becoming harder these days because of all the time to market pressure.

Even so called premium companies like Apple have had lots of issues with their first iPhone and iPad. I know its not acceptable but at this complexity its just hard to cover the infinite space of testing. You should know that as an Engineer.

Have faith the fix will come. If not return your device and wait for a couple of months on the sideline. That is usually my approach. Wait till all the kinks are worked out

P.S. I suspect the Evo is so new and w/ the 3g and 3g connections easily available, that there are a lot of people that have not even tried wifi yet, or haven't noticed yet, or that are making connections so close to their routers that it is not a problem.

If so, this would indeed suggest a chipset issue. But, I would also assume that the engineers built in mechanisms in both the hardware and software to make adjustments for such potential issues via software; if not, I just don't know what to say. Perhaps I should'nt have switched my major from Electrical Engineering to Geology many years ago....lol .....by the by.....I am getting close to deciding to return the Evo for the following reasons:

1. Not confident that Sprint/HTC will in deed upgrade to Froyo/2.2; there may be technical/financial or other issues.
2. And related to 2.1/2.2, I"m not happy about the measly amount of internal memory available for apps(rom). The supposed 1gb, is really about 427mb, and perhaps less, because of the OS, Sense, and open space for Cache. Even the Incredible has >700mb; check out the rom planned for the Galaxy S.....I'm thinking games, gps, and other apps that need space/cache.
3. Battery sucks
4. WiFi sucks
5. Lastly, based on the above, we paid a premium for, perhaps, a not so revolutionary phone. This phone might have a very long lifespan. I thing putting UI's on top of Android will be a thing of the past very soon. ROM will likely increase, as it is on the iPhone, to accommodate "rich" apps, not just internet Tools.

I'm really sorry about this Rant..........I just got worked up.... peace.

 

[markdek]

@dcgrand I never tested w/ an N router, and the Linksys router was a G. Was it an N router problem w/ Apple?......I haven't gotten to your link yet.........

I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but it's a possibility that does not speak well for HTC's design, quality control, or their relationship w/ Sprint or other carriers. Pricing pressures? Cell phones are just a short-term commodity to them, and they have limited financial resources to invest.

Got to hand it to Jobs/Apple re: the iPhone implementation. I.E., putting out a unit only once per year, thus avoiding the Android churning of phones we are likely to see in the next six months. They are realizing this now, that they are moving too fast w/ Android updates. The result will be a churning of phones that become difficult to support after only months.

EDIT: Ok, I looked at the article quick...it's talking about "connectivity"....I'm seeing other issues concerning signal strength, fluctuating signals, and an early drop-off of the signal. Unless Apple was just using some PR spin on the problem, which they probably were........lol

 

[dcgrand]

@markdek

Here is another page from apple that talks about Troubleshooting Wi-Fi networks and connections.

iPad: Troubleshooting Wi-Fi networks and connections

It does have a tab that says "After joining a Wi-Fi network, if you notice the signal strength is weak or fluctuates" but the solution to that is not very convincing. So I am guessing they probably don't know the cause at this point too. Try out the tips under Additional Information they mention it might help.

I know Apple is usually anal about quality control and build quality but they have had their share of issues too. As you can see the iPad has an issue. Also the iPhone has always had an issue with their call quality. People always blame att but I think the iPhone is partly to blame for dropped calls and poor call link as well.

Also if you read my earlier post, Steve Jobs couldn't connect his iPhone 4 to the wireless router during the Apple keynote couple of days ago. A major blooper. And guess what the new iPhone 4 also uses the broadcom chip So I wouldn't be surprised if the new iPhone has similar issues too. The new iPads and Ipod touches that have the same broadcom chip are reporting similar issues.

@dcgrand I never tested w/ an N router, and the Linksys router was a G. Was it an N router problem w/ Apple?......I haven't gotten to your link yet.........

I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but it's a possibility that does not speak well for HTC's design, quality control, or their relationship w/ Sprint or other carriers. Pricing pressures? Cell phones are just a short-term commodity to them, and they have limited financial resources to invest.

Got to hand it to Jobs/Apple re: the iPhone implementation. I.E., putting out a unit only once per year, thus avoiding the Android churning of phones we are likely to see in the next six months. They are realizing this now, that they are moving too fast w/ Android updates. The result will be a churning of phones that become difficult to support after only months.

EDIT: Ok, I looked at the article quick...it's talking about "connectivity"....I'm seeing other issues concerning signal strength, fluctuating signals, and an early drop-off of the signal. Unless Apple was just using some PR spin on the problem, which they probably were........lol

 

[markdek]

"....People always blame att but I think the iPhone is partly to blame for dropped calls and poor call link as well....."

I think you got that right; that's what I have read too. That the iPhone was more at fault, but AT&T couldn't point their finger @em.

Perhaps the people in the know and the engineers really do understand what's going on. Perhaps they were told to reduce signal strength, or do other things, to help w/ battery life, or to save costs on chipset/antenna manufacturing. I'll be hanging in for a few days...Cheers.

 

[dcgrand]

@Auzo

Interesting that you mention that you are having issues with the Bluetooth too.

The EVO uses the Broadcom BCM4329. Check out the block diagram below:

The three things common to both the Bluetooth and Wifi Rx are ANT, LNA and Switch. So either one of those could be the issue.

Thats exactly what I am worried about, especially since I have the same signal weakness issues with my Bluetooth and since they both use the 2.4GHz band I am assuming they are sharing an antenna.

 

[chriscic]

I'll jump in here just to say my EVO wifi is total crap, just as described by many others here. Works fine next to the router (13Mbps+), but the next room over and the rest of the house it plummets to <700Kbs. My router is the DLink DIR-655.

By the way, my iPad wifi works perfectly throughout the house, at great speeds/

 

[dcgrand]

@chriscic

check this link

Apple - Support - Discussions - wi-fi woes, replacement ipad also has ...

The apple forums are full of ipad issues too. Guess you got lucky. Now we sort of know that almost all devices using this wifi chip are having isolated issues. Its starting to looks like an hardware issue, maybe a bad batch of these chips sold by broadcom?

Since you have the same environment for both the ipad and evo and they both have the same WiFi chip and both are know issues to some people. But for you one works and one doesn't indicates that you can rule out everything but hardware.

Are you having issues with bluetooth too?

I'll jump in here just to say my EVO wifi is total crap, just as described by many others here. Works fine next to the router (13Mbps+), but the next room over and the rest of the house it plummets to <700Kbs. My router is the DLink DIR-655.

By the way, my iPad wifi works perfectly throughout the house, at great speeds/

 

[Auzo]

@ Auzo

Haha yea its THEORETICALLY possible. But I was talking more in terms of practicality. And we are talking about a phone here so keeping the size in perspective.

Haha I know, I was just giving you a hard time.

Great find with the block diagram, that really helps me visualize whats going on in there.

Just to give more info on my router setup, I am running a D-Link DIR 825 dual radio unit, and I am running 'n' mode exclusively on the 5GHz band and 'g' mode exclusively on the 2.4GHz band.

 

[dcgrand]

@Auzo

Did you try some of these changes Apple suggests? Give it a shot and see if anything gives. The links are below:

iPad: Troubleshooting Wi-Fi networks and connections
iPad: Issues connecting to Wi-Fi networks

Apple devices with this chip are having similar issues.

Haha I know, I was just giving you a hard time.

Great find with the block diagram, that really helps me visualize whats going on in there.

Just to give more info on my router setup, I am running a D-Link DIR 825 dual radio unit, and I am running 'n' mode exclusively on the 5GHz band and 'g' mode exclusively on the 2.4GHz band.

 

[chriscic]

@chriscic

check this link

Apple - Support - Discussions - wi-fi woes, replacement ipad also has ...

The apple forums are full of ipad issues too. Guess you got lucky. Now we sort of know that almost all devices using this wifi chip are having isolated issues. Its starting to looks like an hardware issue, maybe a bad batch of these chips sold by broadcom?

Since you have the same environment for both the ipad and evo and they both have the same WiFi chip and both are know issues to some people. But for you one works and one doesn't indicates that you can rule out everything but hardware.

Are you having issues with bluetooth too?

I haven't tried bluetooth yet.

I sure am happy Sprint has a 30-day guarantee at this point. This must get fixed for me to keep the EVO.

 

[Auzo]

@Auzo

Did you try some of these changes Apple suggests? Give it a shot and see if anything gives. The links are below:

iPad: Troubleshooting Wi-Fi networks and connections
iPad: Issues connecting to Wi-Fi networks

Apple devices with this chip are having similar issues.

I tried about 80% of the suggestions but some I will have to wait till later to try since I dont wan't to have to restart my router. Roommate is using the internet. Definitely have latest firmware already too. No luck so far.

I downloaded wifi analyzer and i noticed that in the same room a couple feet from the router I get -60dBm and as soon as i pick up the phone and have it in my palm my signal drops by 15-20dB. Anyone care to check if they get similar results?

 

[dcgrand]

Read the first couple of wifi issues from Apple forum on the iPad. Its exactly the same issues people are having on the EVO. Man hope its a driver issue on the Broadcom chip and not a hardware problem.

Apple - Support - Discussions - Weak wifi ...

 

[Auzo]

So it seems like in both apples case and in our case it is working fine for some people and not others.

What I don't understand how this can be a software issue. I would think that a software issue would effect everyone. The only way they wouldn't is if it was compatibility issues between certain routers and the EVO, but where do these compatibility issues come from? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt 802.11g a standard? It explains how a signal should be encoded and modulated for transmission and demodulated and decoded once received. If everyone is following this standard then what does it matter what hardware is being used. For instance say i want to send someone a number, 10. A standard says to add 50 to the number before sending it. Should it matter if I am using a scientific calculator or a pc to add the numbers together if the receiving person knows that he just needs to subtract 50 from whatever number he gets to get back to the original message?

Am I being an idealist? Do manufactures not adhere to these standards fully?

 

[bnewt]

sitting on desk, two bars on Wifi (laptop next to it sees 4 bars)
Pick it up and hold in left hand (like I normally do) - goes instantly down to 1 bar
Hold with finger and thumb of each hand on outside edges - back up to 2 bars

I tried about 80% of the suggestions but some I will have to wait till later to try since I dont wan't to have to restart my router. Roommate is using the internet. Definitely have latest firmware already too. No luck so far.

I downloaded wifi analyzer and i noticed that in the same room a couple feet from the router I get -60dBm and as soon as i pick up the phone and have it in my palm my signal drops by 15-20dB. Anyone care to check if they get similar results?

 

[alxnet]

P.S. I suspect the Evo is so new and w/ the 3g and 4g connections easily available, that there are a lot of people that have not even tried wifi yet, or haven't noticed yet, or that are making connections so close to their routers that it is not a problem.

Weird. I've had my Evo since Monday. I use it at work all the time, which is an environment where my office is 50 feet from the router separated by a number of stainless steel walls. To test the effectiveness of the wifi, I've disabled all data connections through Sprint (wifi only) and I get a consistent stream from my wifi (no dropouts no slowdowns).

The wifi at work is an older model Belkin with 802.11g only. Perhaps that's the reason it works so well with my Evo in such a harsh environment? My Evo is also for the most part stock with no 3rd party case and very little software loaded.

Hopefully, like the iPad, it's simply a software configuration issue (I think the iPad had a glitch with the brightness control interfering with the wifi or some such thing).

 

[Android Believer]

I have an idea to as the possible reason for terrible Wi-Fi reception....I've been reading multiple sources about the Broadcom chipset, it integrates the Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, AND FM Tuner. The FM Tuner Radio on multiple Evo's is plagued with terrible reception as well, unless you just have your headphones plugged in half way, then the FM Tuner seems to get 10x the reception it did with the jack plugged in all the way. A proposed problem to the FM Tuner reception is given by mitch10102000 in this thread .

He states "They have soldered the antenna to the microphone ring on the 1/8 inch jack instead of the L or R audio output ring. If you use a regular set of headphones, the antenna will be grounded to the phone, which is useless. "

It's just an idea, but what if the FM Tuner antenna and the Wifi antenna had somewhat the same problem? Just thought I'd throw the idea out there.

 

[Auzo]

I have an idea to as the possible reason for terrible Wi-Fi reception....I've been reading multiple sources about the Broadcom chipset, it integrates the Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, AND FM Tuner. The FM Tuner Radio on multiple Evo's is plagued with terrible reception as well, unless you just have your headphones plugged in half way, then the FM Tuner seems to get 10x the reception it did with the jack plugged in all the way. A proposed problem to the FM Tuner reception is given by mitch10102000 in this thread .

He states "They have soldered the antenna to the microphone ring on the 1/8 inch jack instead of the L or R audio output ring. If you use a regular set of headphones, the antenna will be grounded to the phone, which is useless. "

It's just an idea, but what if the FM Tuner antenna and the Wifi antenna had somewhat the same problem? Just thought I'd throw the idea out there.

Unfortunately that's not very likely. If the antenna was not connected to the correct interface the WIFI wouldn't be working at all. As for a loose solder joint, its also very unlikely because there are to many people having this problem to be an isolated quality control issue like that.

dcgrand posted a block diagram of the broadcom chip here:
http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-evo-4g/15564-bad-wi-fi-range-21.html#post156877
There really isn't a way you could connect that antenna up incorrectly that would give you a partially working system.

Also I starting to lean away from the broadcom chip itself being the problem. The AC guys ran some test comparing to other cell phones including the N1, which also uses this chip, And the N1 was arguably best in class.
http://www.androidcentral.com/evo-4g-wifi-test-how-bad-it

I am starting to worry that this can be an antenna problem. Maybe a poor layout design or something.

@dcgrand: Do you know how wideband these antennas typically are? I ask because I have been wondering if maybe they are also using the same antenna (with maybe an additional diplexer) for the 4G signal (2.5GHz) as well . If the antenna bandwidth is normally pretty narrowband, then maybe they detuned it to capture both signals and because of that we are losing some antenna gain.

 

[alxnet]

Weird. I've had my Evo since Monday. I use it at work all the time, which is an environment where my office is 50 feet from the router separated by a number of stainless steel walls. To test the effectiveness of the wifi, I've disabled all data connections through Sprint (wifi only) and I get a consistent stream from my wifi (no dropouts no slowdowns).

The wifi at work is an older model Belkin with 802.11g only. Perhaps that's the reason it works so well with my Evo in such a harsh environment? My Evo is also for the most part stock with no 3rd party case and very little software loaded.

Hopefully, like the iPad, it's simply a software configuration issue (I think the iPad had a glitch with the brightness control interfering with the wifi or some such thing).

Okay. I just did an extensive test at home. My router is normally on the bottom floor next to my desk. I turned off my cellular data connection (wifi only) and did some tests in the garage and upper floor, both about 30 feet away between two walls. I get the same results I get at work, which is, good throughput and good stability with none of the drop outs and disconnections that others are mentioning. BTW, this is on a DLINK with both N and G modes enabled.

Any of you having issues tried to hard reset your phone and return it to stock form?