Campaign Verizon To Unlock Our Bootloader!

[Thalinor]

Just an update, I am one of those heading up the campaign on xda (same username) to get this fixed. I just heard back from the Electronic Frontier Foundation and they are going to get involved, help us find a pro bono lawyer, and whatever else they can do. I am out of town till next week but will start on this again next Monday. Now that we have the EFF on board this should move very quickly.



Sent from my Android Smartphone, please forgive content lenght, formatting, and typing/spelling auto-correct mistakes.

 

[markhallyo]

I don't get why they can't just turn down replacements or deny compensation for bricked phones? It's quite easy to tell when a phone has been bricked by someone trying to unlock it. If my mom got a smart phone there would be no way in the world she could brick it. To brick your phone you have to pretty much know how to screw it up. Verizon claims an encrypted bootloader will provide the best service possible to the masses, when the masses don't even know what the hell a bootloader is let alone a locked and encrypted one. If you unlock your bootloader plain and simple it says your warranty is void. People that brick their phones hack into their devices knowing full well they are on their own from the point they click that root button or enter any commands into their prompt on their computer. It isn't like when someone tries to root their phone and ends up bricking it they don't know how it happened. If you care enough to root your phone you likely care enough to read up on it and know it does away with your warranty unless you want do it correctly and can restore factory images later on down the road if needed. And in that case, your phone isn't bricked so there isn't any need for worry on Verizon's part about replacing bricked phones right? I know my post is a convoluted mess of gripes and an attempt to refute Verizon's choice to encrypt the bootloader, but it makes more sense than the stunt they pulled announcing an encrypted bootloader well into the preorder stage or encrypting it in the first place...

 

[PsYcHoNeWb]

I don't get why they can't just turn down replacements or deny compensation for bricked phones? It's quite easy to tell when a phone has been bricked by someone trying to unlock it. If my mom got a smart phone there would be no way in the world she could brick it. To brick your phone you have to pretty much know how to screw it up. Verizon claims an encrypted bootloader will provide the best service possible to the masses, when the masses don't even know what the hell a bootloader is let alone a locked and encrypted one. If you unlock your bootloader plain and simple it says your warranty is void. People that brick their phones hack into their devices knowing full well they are on their own from the point they click that root button or enter any commands into their prompt on their computer. It isn't like when someone tries to root their phone and ends up bricking it they don't know how it happened. If you care enough to root your phone you likely care enough to read up on it and know it does away with your warranty unless you want do it correctly and can restore factory images later on down the road if needed. And in that case, your phone isn't bricked so there isn't any need for worry on Verizon's part about replacing bricked phones right? I know my post is a convoluted mess of gripes and an attempt to refute Verizon's choice to encrypt the bootloader, but it makes more sense than the stunt they pulled announcing an encrypted bootloader well into the preorder stage or encrypting it in the first place...

I agree with everything that you are saying here except for the bolded part. Most people will read up about it and do their research on how to properly unlocked and root a phone but there are always the few that don't and end up having a problem. Verizon doesn't want to deal with ANY of the problems of an unencrypted bootloader. Again the point here is Verizon doesn't want the hassle of dealing with the issue of bricked phones because of inexperienced or lazy people unlocking their phones without follow directions.

I don't mean to bring this up but it should be said. Do you hear people complaining about the iPhone and its lack of hackability? Generally no. You will hear some people complain about it but the overall majority of their users are happy with what they have. The Galaxy S3 isn't much different. The experience is made for people who want a working phone out of the box. Yes with Android there will always be room of dev support but I honestly am finding this just like the iPhone as well. Its a great phone out of the box but hacking it doesn't provide that much more to justify the hassle.

 

[Srambo217]

Regardless of what the general population can/won't/want to do shouldn't have anything to do with my choices.

Just because there's a chance some clown (who can barely operate iTunes) could brick his phone while attempting to unlock it doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to. That's like saying nobody is allowed to drive because there's car accidents.

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[xliderider]

I'm at work, and my wife told me someone from Verizon just called regarding my complaint I filed with the FCC over the locked bootloader. Said a response will be forthcoming within 14 days.

Not holding my breath for any real breakthroughs... Probably get some kind of a canned response about keeping the network reliable and user experience for everyone, blah, blah, blah.

 

[PsYcHoNeWb]

Regardless of what the general population can/won't/want to do shouldn't have anything to do with my choices.

Just because there's a chance some clown (who can barely operate iTunes) could brick his phone while attempting to unlock it doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to. That's like saying nobody is allowed to drive because there's car accidents.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Android Central Forums

I'm not trying to invalidate your cause here I am just stating my view point. You have a right to an opinion and I respect that. 2-3 years ago before I started working with internal business models I would have been fighting right there with you. I agree that they are our phones and that we reserve the right to use them in any way shape and form we want, but don't forget, we RENT their cellular network. That's what we are paying them for, so if we want to use their network we need to abide by their rules. Same as everywhere else. For example, if you buy a condo, there are somethings you can't do to your house to keep a uniform appearance. Same deal here, if we want to use their service we need to follow their rules. If you don't like rules there are other options out there.

And about your car analogy.... isn't hacking the Galaxy S3 still possible, just with work a rounds? That's not like being told you can't drive because of accidents, its more like there are more laws and restrictions because there are accidents. That sounds pretty common in our society. Someone does something stupid and boom, ruins it for everyone else.

 

[aaCharley]

I have tried to make three or four posts a day on the VZW Facebook page with compalints about the disabled Galaxy SIII. I also note that the full featured models with full capabilities are available from AT&T, Sprint, and T-Mobile. No Google Wallet for you. No Upgrades or Updates for you.

The suggestion about filing a complaint with the FCC is a very good one. It will be hard for Verizon to ignore those complaints.

 

[Predator04]

Normally I don't chime in on these but here it goes anyway since I had a Galaxy S3 and returned it due to many reason, not just the locked bootloader. Yes, the locked bootloader sucks but you can't think about it from the standpoint of the enthusiast. Yes, we are the population too however out the vast majority of Verizon Wireless customers we only make up a very small percentage. Most of the average public buying a phone don't even know what a bootloader is or what the implications are if it encrypted or not and more importantly they wouldn't care. Verizon has one fiduciary duty, make money for the shareholders of the company and they have to do that by providing the best possible product to the vast majority of their users.

Now you may come back and say to me that if you someone is just an average user and doesn't know what a bootloader is then whats the point of locking it anyway since they won't know how to access it. While this is very true and wouldn't actually hurt anyone, it would hurt Verizon and their earnings which is a direct contradiction to their fiduciary duty. Believe me, I am in no way shape or form advocating that Verizon lock all bootloaders from here on out. I own a Galaxy Nexus unlocked, rooted and running Jelly Bean. If Verizon unlocked all the bootloaders on all of their devices, they would have to account for the massive amount of warranty claims because of users who brick their devices because they didn't understand how to properly root and unlock their devices.

With the current method of accounting that the United States and pretty much internationally, the company would have to book the warranty expense on their books WHEN THE SALES ARE MADE. This is the called the accrual method of accounting. It requires that expenses be matched with revenues and warranty expenses aren't any different. Companies are forced to estimate the amount of warranty claims and book and entry that will directly reduce their income, therefore reducing their earnings.

If you want a unlocked bootloader when you buy a phone, like myself, buy one that you know for sure will have one. If it isn't on your network, then you can either jump ship or settle with something else. Realistically that is the only thing that is going to happen. I really hate to say this because it will be great if they do, but I highly doubt that Verizon will unlock the bootloader even with a huge amount of support. Sadly, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

i see what you mean. But i want to ask one question. if they lock it doesn't that mean more bricks from people trying to unlock it the hard way? or using these workarounds? it seems to me that there would be more people bricking there phone as there is more steps/more things to go wrong. hopefully they do return it and get a new phone

 

[Ry]

Regardless of what the general population can/won't/want to do shouldn't have anything to do with my choices.

Just because there's a chance some clown (who can barely operate iTunes) could brick his phone while attempting to unlock it doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to. That's like saying nobody is allowed to drive because there's car accidents.

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And with Samsung releasing a developer edition phone, you have the choice.

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[sfobrien]

And with Samsung releasing a developer edition phone, you have the choice.

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True but VZW has already stated they locked the bootloader because of security, tweaking, etc. But then allows the same device unlocked to be on their network? I say they are liars and full of S***.

 

[Tarpit_Carnivore]

Creccaj1 is hitting the nail on the head here. This isn't about Verizon trying to get one over on people it's more about them covering their butts. I know some of you have said "If people are rooting they know what they're getting into" but if you go look at any developer threads at XDA on popular phones you will find A LOT of people complaining about things with their phones because they didn't read. Go one step further I'm sure you can even find people who have returned their phones because they loaded a ROM and now something doesn't work right moving forward (radio, gps, overheating, whatever). Even on smaller devices I have seen a fair number of complaints.

One thing to keep in mind is that with the amount of Android devices out there and new easier ways to root a lot more people are looking into rooting. When you get more people doing it you're bound to end up with a lot more people who are just not competent enough to understand just what they're getting into. For the majority of those who root they will accept the responsibility that comes with it but just like anything there is always a segment who will make it look bad.

 

[PsYcHoNeWb]

i see what you mean. But i want to ask one question. if they lock it doesn't that mean more bricks from people trying to unlock it the hard way? or using these workarounds? it seems to me that there would be more people bricking there phone as there is more steps/more things to go wrong. hopefully they do return it and get a new phone

Again, because they have the encrypted bootloader it is MUCH easier to tell when someone is coming in with a phone that is bricked due to something they did to it software wise and that is not covered under warranty. Yes there are work around but you do this at your own risk and assume that Verizon WONT help you. If the bootloader is open to whatever, Verizon is just asking for it. If they say "Well you can't do that to the phone" someone can easily come back and say "Well you left it open so therefore we can do whatever we want". That's why they did this. To get all the liability off their end.

Creccaj1 is hitting the nail on the head here. This isn't about Verizon trying to get one over on people it's more about them covering their butts. I know some of you have said "If people are rooting they know what they're getting into" but if you go look at any developer threads at XDA on popular phones you will find A LOT of people complaining about things with their phones because they didn't read. Go one step further I'm sure you can even find people who have returned their phones because they loaded a ROM and now something doesn't work right moving forward (radio, gps, overheating, whatever). Even on smaller devices I have seen a fair number of complaints.

One thing to keep in mind is that with the amount of Android devices out there and new easier ways to root a lot more people are looking into rooting. When you get more people doing it you're bound to end up with a lot more people who are just not competent enough to understand just what they're getting into. For the majority of those who root they will accept the responsibility that comes with it but just like anything there is always a segment who will make it look bad.

Exactly. Most of the average users who are first time rooters don't fully understand what they can do once they are rooted and unlocked. There are a lot of great devs out there, but there are also a lot of bad ones. If you don't read up on what you doing to your device then its your own fault.

 

[Srambo217]

And with Samsung releasing a developer edition phone, you have the choice.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Android Central Forums

You're obviously missing the point of this thread.

And FYI. Those of us at preordered the Galaxy SIII had no idea this dev edition even existed until a week or so after we activated our devices.

Creccaj1 is hitting the nail on the head here. This isn't about Verizon trying to get one over on people it's more about them covering their butts. I know some of you have said "If people are rooting they know what they're getting into" but if you go look at any developer threads at XDA on popular phones you will find A LOT of people complaining about things with their phones because they didn't read. Go one step further I'm sure you can even find people who have returned their phones because they loaded a ROM and now something doesn't work right moving forward (radio, gps, overheating, whatever). Even on smaller devices I have seen a fair number of complaints.

One thing to keep in mind is that with the amount of Android devices out there and new easier ways to root a lot more people are looking into rooting. When you get more people doing it you're bound to end up with a lot more people who are just not competent enough to understand just what they're getting into. For the majority of those who root they will accept the responsibility that comes with it but just like anything there is always a segment who will make it look bad.

Again, knowledgeable enthusiasts shouldn't be penalized for this. It's a ridiculous excuse.

I find It rather bizarre anyone would actually defend Verizon. Upgrade fees, the outlawing of Unlimited Data, pulling the 50GB DropBox promo from our phones only, they ARE NOT looking out for anyone's best interest but they're own.

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[Ry]

I find It rather bizarre anyone would actually defend Verizon. Upgrade fees, the outlawing of Unlimited Data, pulling the 50GB DropBox promo from our phones only, they ARE NOT looking out for anyone's best interest but they're own.

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And if things like the new upgrade fees (cheaper than two of the big four), no longer offering unlimited to grandfathered users that upgrade (no one is forced to lose unlimited data), and not offering the 50GB Dropbox promo (never advertised as having it, people just assumed) make so many people like you so upset- speak with your wallet and leave.

Complaining with little action won't change anything.

As a business, they have to look out for themselves.

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[Tarpit_Carnivore]

You're obviously missing the point of this thread.

And FYI. Those of us at preordered the Galaxy S3 had no idea this dev edition even existed until a week or so after we activated our devices.



Again, knowledgeable enthusiasts shouldn't be penalized for this. It's a ridiculous excuse.

I find It rather bizarre anyone would actually defend Verizon. Upgrade fees, the outlawing of Unlimited Data, pulling the 50GB DropBox promo from our phones only, they ARE NOT looking out for anyone's best interest but they're own.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Android Central Forums

It's not so much defending as trying to see it from their perspective and yes they're looking out for their own interest because THEIR business is what matters to them. They need to do things to protect themselves, their network and to make sure they keep the 99.9% of their user base coming back. What a lot of us often forget is we are the very small majority of their subscribers. 200K Android enthusiast leaving for Sprint is but a small drop in their revenue.

 

[PsYcHoNeWb]

It's not so much defending as trying to see it from their perspective and yes they're looking out for their own interest because THEIR business is what matters to them. They need to do things to protect themselves, their network and to make sure they keep the 99.9% of their user base coming back. What a lot of us often forget is we are the very small majority of their subscribers. 200K Android enthusiast leaving for Sprint is but a small drop in their revenue.

This is why Verizon will be looking out for their own good and not worried about what a small crowd will say. When they got the iPhone 4 for the first time they saw a HUGE spike in activation's of new customers which makes us even smaller than before since more and more people are gravitating to the iPhone for its simplicity and name.

If we all decided to jump ship, they wouldn't notice it past the first couple months. After that their revenues will stabilize and be back to where they usually sit. We aren't defending them, every corporation has their ups and downs when it comes to customer satisfaction. Personally, I dislike them because they are usually slower at getting new phones or the most updated phones (Getting Incredible 4G instead of One series). When my plan is up I will consider going somewhere else but if nothing else has the same coverage there is no point.

You can't get this angry over something that is out of your control. Yes you can petition, you can file complaints and do anything else to get your point across but honestly why get so worked up about it? In the end its just a cell phone. Why stress yourself out more?

 

[aaCharley]

You're obviously missing the point of this thread.

And FYI. Those of us at preordered the Galaxy S3 had no idea this dev edition even existed until a week or so after we activated our devices.

<<<<<<

Again, knowledgeable enthusiasts shouldn't be penalized for this. It's a ridiculous excuse.

That Developer Edition phone is not availabe now and there is no release date.
It remains a vaporware fictious device shown only to generate some Hopium.

 

[Srambo217]

This is why Verizon will be looking out for their own good and not worried about what a small crowd will say. When they got the iPhone 4 for the first time they saw a HUGE spike in activation's of new customers which makes us even smaller than before since more and more people are gravitating to the iPhone for its simplicity and name.

If we all decided to jump ship, they wouldn't notice it past the first couple months. After that their revenues will stabilize and be back to where they usually sit. We aren't defending them, every corporation has their ups and downs when it comes to customer satisfaction. Personally, I dislike them because they are usually slower at getting new phones or the most updated phones (Getting Incredible 4G instead of One series). When my plan is up I will consider going somewhere else but if nothing else has the same coverage there is no point.

You can't get this angry over something that is out of your control. Yes you can petition, you can file complaints and do anything else to get your point across but honestly why get so worked up about it? In the end its just a cell phone. Why stress yourself out more?

Lol, nobody is marching in his streets with torches and pitchforks. You're over exaggerating, quite a bit.

Look, it's fantastic you three or four guys here are so open minded and can understand where Verizon is coming from and sunshine and daisies, ect. If you aren't going to at least try to make a peep about this or aren't even concerned with this issue, why are you posting in this thread? This wasn't made to change minds, just help our (according to some of you) feeble and hopeless cause.

I bid you good day.



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[PsYcHoNeWb]

Lol, nobody is marching in his streets with torches and pitchforks. You're over exaggerating, quite a bit.

Look, it's fantastic you three or four guys here are so open minded and can understand where Verizon is coming from and sunshine and daisies, ect. If you aren't going to at least try to make a peep about this or aren't even concerned with this issue, why are you posting in this thread? This wasn't made to change minds, just help our (according to some of you) feeble and hopeless cause.

I bid you good day.



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To state our opinion about the matter. That's all. You can take it or leave it.

I was just trying to help make it clear from a different viewpoint. There is always 2 sides (sometimes more) to an argument. If you feel wronged by Verizon, I feel for you everyone has been there but the only way you will inflict change is if you pick with your wallet. Simple as that. Verizon is a corporation out to make money... plain and simple. They could be in the business of selling sadomasochism porn and still have the same end goal.... make money.

Yea that is an extreme example, but they, as a corporation HAVE to produce earnings and they must do what is in their best interest in order to achieve that goal. Until they get slapped with a major lawsuit of a serious chunk of their customer base leaves to go somewhere else they will be producing revenue and income and not much will change.

 

[Crispy]

The last few posts are a perfect example of what's wrong with corporate America. VZW is being defended because apparently doing what's in their best interest is the right thing. At whatever cost! What happened to treating your customers right? What happened to being responsible?

The fact is corporations control both policy and the legal system. Even if there were to be a lawsuite against VZW for their clearly illegal practice of limiting what a user can do with their purchased phones, the chances of it ever coming to court or winning are zero.

The carriers have realized the enormous power and control they have (monopolies granted by FCC, immune from any prosecution) and over the last few years have become much more aggreesive in increasing their profits at the expense of users. Do you think for a second their practices would be tolerated by someone like EU, which actually does look out for customer interests.

If people in the US actually had a choice, if we had a level playing field like other countries (universal unlocked phones, universal gsm network) then there's no way carriers would get away with so much here. Most customers simply don't have a choice - they're limited by contracts (with outrageous ETF's) or coverage. Carriers know this and can basically do what they want.