Is T-Mobile asking OEMs to remove Band 12 support?

[Ry]

I know what is your point? Moto doesn't make phones that support VoLTE, so T-Mobile shouldn't sell sub-standard phones that are missing VoLTE by the manufacture. There are at least 18 phones that do support VoLTE now.

No US Carrier that I know of sells Sony phones either.

Per the article, it seems that T-Mobile has asked Motorola to remove Band 12 support from the unlocked, unbranded Moto E.

That's the point.

This is not a phone that T-Mobile sells so why are they telling Motorola what to take out of it?

Sub-standard?

 

[Shilohcane]

Per the article, it seems that T-Mobile has asked Motorola to remove Band 12 support from the unlocked, unbranded Moto E.

That's the point.

This is not a phone that T-Mobile sells so why are they telling Motorola what to take out of it?

Sub-standard?

That is simple. T-Mobile doesn't have the ability to force Motorola to disable Band 12. Only the FCC has that power.

T-Mobile only has the ability to reject phones that doesn't meet their standards on T-Mobile network. Motorola agreed to disable Band 12 so they could continue to sell phones that T-Mobile would allow on their network. Moto making a phone that won't make a voice call in certain conditions connected to T-Mobiles band 12 is a great reason to reject a phone before it gave T-Mobile more customer relations issues.

If Motorola phones like other manufactures supported VoLTE it wouldn't be an problem. This is a pure technical issue and the Moto phone doesn't meet the VoLTE standard that many other phone manufactures have done.

 

[raino]

Motorola agreed to disable Band 12 so they could continue to sell phones that T-Mobile would allow on their network. [...] T-Mobile like any network as the right to restrict phones that don't work on their networks that don't meet T-Mobile's standards.

Umm...what? Since when do you need carrier permission to sell phones for use on a GSM network?

 

[Shilohcane]

Umm...what? Since when do you need carrier permission to sell phones for use on a GSM network?

LOL going back to your circle loop again as you ignore the phone doesn't always work with band 12 enabled. No one said Moto needs T-Mobile permission to sell phone but you.

Verizon has for years rejected any phone other than a iPhone or the Nexus 6 that wasn't purchased from Verizon regardless how well the worked. The Nexus 5 was a phone that Verizon would disable the second it got the sim inserted trying to connect to Verizon's networks.

However in this case the Moto E/G can't even make a simple voice call in all conditions connected to T-Mobile. T-Mobile has every right to restrict sub-standard phones that causes issues.

 

[Ry]

That is simple. T-Mobile doesn't have the ability to force Motorola to disable Band 12. Only the FCC has that power.

T-Mobile only has the ability to reject phones that doesn't meet their standards on T-Mobile network. Motorola agreed to disable Band 12 so they could continue to sell phones that T-Mobile would allow on their network. Moto making a phone that won't make a voice call in certain conditions connected to T-Mobiles band 12 is a great reason to reject a phone before it gave T-Mobile more customer relations issues.

If Motorola phones like other manufactures supported VoLTE it wouldn't be an problem. This is a pure technical issue and the Moto phone doesn't meet the VoLTE standard that many other phone manufactures have done.

Are you implying that T-Mobile would block a Moto E from their network because it had access to use Band 12 for something other than VoLTE?

Posted via Android Central App (Moto X)

 

[raino]

LOL going back to your circle loop again as you ignore the phone doesn't always work with band 12 enabled. No one said Moto needs T-Mobile permission to sell phone but you.

Actually, I was asking you a question, but OK.

Verizon has for years rejected any phone other than a iPhone or the Nexus 6 that wasn't purchased from Verizon regardless how well the worked. The Nexus 5 was a phone that Verizon would disable the second it got the sim inserted trying to connect to Verizon's networks.

I asked you about GSM networks, you respond with the example of Verizon...

However in this case the Moto E/G can't even make a simple voice call in all conditions connected to T-Mobile. T-Mobile has every right to restrict sub-standard phones that causes issues.

If I live in, say Sacramento where there are other TMO networks to make calls on plus AT&T to roam on, if necessary--why would I care about the ability to make a call on LTE band 12? Why should I have to suffer the loss of LTE band 12 altogether because TMO doesn't have any other coverage/is unwilling to pay for roaming in a band 12-only market?

And why was the solution not disabling voLTE, but band 12 altogether? Because TMO doesn't want to pay for roaming calls, customer choice be damned?

 

[Shilohcane]

Actually, I was asking you a question, but OK.



I asked you about GSM networks, you respond with the example of Verizon...



If I live in, say Sacramento where there are other TMO networks to make calls on plus AT&T to roam on, if necessary--why would I care about the ability to make a call on LTE band 12? Why should I have to suffer the loss of LTE band 12 altogether because TMO doesn't have any other coverage/is unwilling to pay for roaming in a band 12-only market?

And why was the solution not disabling voLTE, but band 12 altogether? Because TMO doesn't want to pay for roaming calls, customer choice be damned?

As I said Raino I gave you the facts that you ignore with your straw man's spins to change the topic. This isn't our first Rodeo and I know your game. Moto E/G won't even make a phone call in certain conditions on T-Mobile. T-Mobile can't force Moto to disable Band 12 just prevent sub-standard phones from being put on T-Mobile which is the reason Moto volunteered to disable Band 12 to keep selling their phones to T-Mobile customers. Bottom line is this is a Motorola issue not a T-Mobile issue.

 

[Ry]

T-Mobile and band 12 support in unlocked smartphones put in the spotlight » TmoNews

A Motorola employee explained recently that band 12 was removed from the Moto E (2015) at T-Mobile’s request over concerns that it could show that it has an LTE signal, but if all that it has is band 12, it couldn’t actually complete a call since it has no VoLTE support. While T-Mobile hasn’t officially commented on this matter, T-Mo spoke with Android Police off the record and said that any device on its network with band 12 also needs to support VoLTE and E911. Without VoLTE, band 12 phones on T-Mo are unable to make a call if they don’t have any other T-Mo service to fall back to, and they won’t know to roam onto another carrier’s network. Removing band 12 altogether eliminates this issue.

Why Is T-Mobile Telling Manufacturers To Remove Band 12 LTE Support From Some Unlocked Smartphones?

It is true that Band 12 support was removed with the update to Android 5.1. This was a carrier requirement over concerns about Band 12 connections by phones that are not capable of VoLTE. On non-VoLTE phones like the MOTO E, your phone could even show you have a signal, but would be unable to complete a call. At this point, there is no plan to change or address Band 12 support on the Moto E.

T-Mobile Unofficially Speaks To Us About Band 12 LTE / VoLTE And Unlocked Smartphones, And Yep It's Still Confusing

On T-Mobile, any device on its network with band 12 LTE data support must also support T-Mobile Voice over LTE services and E911.

In order to obtain VoLTE compliance for band 12, phones must go through T-Mobile's rigorous network certification process (and yes, unlocked phones can go through this certification).

It is not clear what action, if any, T-Mobile will take if a smartphone vendor refuses to remove band 12 data support from their device and also refuses to undergo the T-Mobile VoLTE certification process. (Ie, they want to keep B12 data but not bother with B12 VoLTE certification.)

From these articles, it seems as though T-Mobile requested Motorola (and at least one other OEM) remove Band 12 support from their unlocked, non-carrier device - not Motorola "volunteered".

Maybe T-Mobile needs better roaming agreements.

 

[UDPGuy]

The problem isn't T-Mobile, its Motorola.

Posted via Nexus 6 with unlimited international data via AT&T

 

[Citizen Coyote]

This is one of the most insane (yet still civil) discussions I've seen on these boards in a while.

After reading all this and the linked articles, it's still not entirely clear what's going to happen down the road, and that's frustrating for consumers (especially those of us who prefer carrier-unbranded and unlocked devices). We expect a device with support for Band 12 to be able to use it, not have the feature taken away.

One thing I don't understand - and maybe this is because I'm not a phone engineer or software developer - is this bit from one of the Android Police articles Ry linked above:

Without VoLTE support, a device on band 12 service would be unable to make phone calls of any kind if no other T-Mobile band was available (it will not know to fall back to AT&T roaming - the call will just flat-out fail)...

Emphasis mine. Is it not possible to program a phone to say "hey, if all you've got is Band 12, turn it off and go look for a GSM connection?" That would solve the problem of having to navigate TMo's proprietary VoLTE process/certification while staying compliant with Federal law regarding E911 access. But maybe this is not technically possible. I don't know.

Second issue: if Band 12 can be turned off, I assume it can be turned back on again at some future time, but will it? Is there incentive for OEMs to turn it back on for use elsewhere even if the TMo mess isn't resolved? I assume other carriers/nations may start using Band 12 in the future, and it would suck for the actions of one carrier to dictate how a device could be used outside of its service area.

 

[Shilohcane]

The problem isn't T-Mobile, its Motorola.

Posted via Nexus 6 with unlimited international data via AT&T

100% RIGHT T-Mobile is required by US Law and the FCC to meet E911 requirements. The FCC requires T-Mobile to police their network to meet the E911 standards or will make T-Mobile to pay tens of millions of dollars in FCC violations. What the FCC should do is make Motorola and any other cell company pass a industry standardized E911 certification before their phones are allowed to be sold in the US. This is clearly a cell phone manufactures issue that only the phone manufacture can correct and pay for passing their own certification.

Once again technology is head of the government laws that forces VoLTE to be tested by individual Networks. T-Mobile and Sprint will still get phones that are approved for their VoLTE networks. However smaller regional carriers like Cspire and rural carriers and Telco cooperatives are screwed by this requirement that will restrict them from implementing LTE only towers and avoid using VoLTE. Granted there is most likely a simple fix in the cell phones firmware but even that should be done by both Google and Apple at the OS level that would help with any industry FCC certification to the OS level instead of the Network carrier level. If this isn't fixed at the Google/Apple/Microsoft then it will increase the cost to consumers and every phone must be FCC certified at the Network level. This will only make phones more Network Branded which everyone hates.

 

[Shilohcane]

Why Is T-Mobile Telling Manufacturers To Remove Band 12 LTE Support From Some Unlocked Smartphones?

From these articles, it seems as though T-Mobile requested Motorola (and at least one other OEM) remove Band 12 support from their unlocked, non-carrier device - not Motorola "volunteered".

Maybe T-Mobile needs better roaming agreements.

A better T-Mobile roaming agreement would have zero effect as it was clearly stated in the article. The Moto E/G phones will lock on Band 12 and won't fall back to roaming or change to any other available T-Mobile or Roaming band. The Moto doesn't have VoLTE support so it is locked on a LTE only band and any attempt to call 911 will result in a failed call. This is a violation of Federal Law to meet the E911 standards. This is clearly a phone issue not a network issue and Moto is the one that failed to FCC certify their phone for use on T-Mobile.

Also, as I have been saying since the get-go this is 100% a fault for Motorola either making a sub-quality phone with out VoLTE or Motorola not paying for the FCC E911 Certification on T-Mobile network. Yes, Motorola volunteered to remove Band 12 most likely because they spoke to the FCC and realized they could have their phone banned from US sales and be heavily fined tens of millions of dollars by the FCC.

T-Mobile met their obligation to inform Motorola their phone doesn't meet E911 federal laws on their networks and informed the FCC this is a Moto issue to fix. Motorola volunteered to disable band 12 because it was the cheapest way for them to be E911 FCC compliant and continue to make money selling their phones. This is 100% on Motorola to correct or pay for the VoLTE certification to be used on T-Mobile. The article was clear that T-Mobile didn't know what they would have to do if Motorola decided to keep Band 12 but I am sure T-Mobile first call would be to the FCC to make them force Motorola to correct their issue or be kicked out of the US in sales.

The whole point of VoLTE is to allow T-Mobile to increase nation wide roaming on other networks via LTE. VoLTE is the only solution other than AT&T for T-Mobile using GSM only to meet E911 and AT&T doesn't want to help T-Mobile improve their Nation Wide coverage. VoLTE is the future and any network that isn't moving to a all LTE network is going to be falling behind even it takes several years to get there. 2G is dying a slow death just like 1G has died. Technology moves on with 5G on the horizon and if any Cell phone manufacture can't make a VoLTE phone today then they shouldn't still be in the cell phone business.

 

[raino]

Is it not possible to program a phone to say "hey, if all you've got is Band 12, turn it off and go look for a GSM connection?" That would solve the problem of having to navigate TMo's proprietary VoLTE process/certification while staying compliant with Federal law regarding E911 access. But maybe this is not technically possible. I don't know.

If TMO is to be believed--this is not possible. But I'm still not understanding why shutting down b12 altogether is the solution; why not just ask OEMs to disable voLTE--like it practically is in, say, b2/b4 phones that haven't gotten voLTE clearance through TMO or whatever. Then the phone is free to latch on to a roaming signal for the E911 call.

 

[Ry]

A better T-Mobile roaming agreement would have zero effect as it was clearly stated in the article. The Moto E/G phones will lock on Band 12 and won't fall back to roaming or change to any other available T-Mobile or Roaming band. The Moto doesn't have VoLTE support so it is locked on a LTE only band and any attempt to call 911 will result in a failed call. This is a violation of Federal Law to meet the E911 standards. This is clearly a phone issue not a network issue and Moto is the one that failed to FCC certify their phone for use on T-Mobile.

Also, as I have been saying since the get-go this is 100% a fault for Motorola either making a sub-quality phone with out VoLTE or Motorola not paying for the FCC E911 Certification on T-Mobile network. Yes, Motorola volunteered to remove Band 12 most likely because they spoke to the FCC and realized they could have their phone banned from US sales and be heavily fined tens of millions of dollars by the FCC.

T-Mobile met their obligation to inform Motorola their phone doesn't meet E911 federal laws on their networks and informed the FCC this is a Moto issue to fix. Motorola volunteered to disable band 12 because it was the cheapest way for them to be E911 FCC compliant and continue to make money selling their phones. This is 100% on Motorola to correct or pay for the VoLTE certification to be used on T-Mobile. The article was clear that T-Mobile didn't know what they would have to do if Motorola decided to keep Band 12 but I am sure T-Mobile first call would be to the FCC to make them force Motorola to correct their issue or be kicked out of the US in sales.

The whole point of VoLTE is to allow T-Mobile to increase nation wide roaming on other networks via LTE. VoLTE is the only solution other than AT&T for T-Mobile using GSM only to meet E911 and AT&T doesn't want to help T-Mobile improve their Nation Wide coverage. VoLTE is the future and any network that isn't moving to a all LTE network is going to be falling behind even it takes several years to get there. 2G is dying a slow death just like 1G has died. Technology moves on with 5G on the horizon and if any Cell phone manufacture can't make a VoLTE phone today then they shouldn't still be in the cell phone business.

So in order to have your unlocked, non-carrier phone not be called "sub-standard", it must not have Band 12 LTE enabled if it doesn't support T-Mobile's VoLTE on Band 12?

While I understand the E911 concerns, I do have concerns with a carrier getting involved with non-carrier phones.

 

[raino]

While I understand the E911 concerns, I do have concerns with a carrier getting involved with non-carrier phones.

This. And the larger implication that carriers like TMO are using voLTE as a way to essentially restrict BYOD--especially troubling with the whole move towards all-voLTE. Does it make sense to pay for a $100 phone to go through voLTE certification on TMO? And from everything I'm reading, this certification that OEMs have to pay TMO for is expensive.

 

[Allen Brandt]

According to an article that's published today, TMobile is asking carriers that don't support VoLTE and E911 on Band 12 to disable it. Their stated reason is that you could show having a signal and be connected, but not able to make a call, and this could violate FCC E911 rules.

I don't buy into the conspiracy or un-carrier theories, as TMo is pretty easy about allowing most anything on their network (and I've added a number of unlocked devices without any issues). This is the first time that I know of, where they have this type of limitation.

Let's hope it's not the start of a trend of a change to their existing way of working.

 

[Shilohcane]

So in order to have your unlocked, non-carrier phone not be called "sub-standard", it must not have Band 12 LTE enabled if it doesn't support T-Mobile's VoLTE on Band 12?

While I understand the E911 concerns, I do have concerns with a carrier getting involved with non-carrier phones.

I have no hate or issues with Motorola. I am only trying to say Sub-standard for T-Mobile's network only. T-Mobile requires VoLTE for all phones with their pure LTE Band 12 as their standard. T-Mobile is spending billions to improve their network for VoLTE that is the future. I'm not attacking Motorola but they are the only ones that are to blame for the issue of their phones not having VoLTE or not getting a FCC VoLTE certification for T-Mobile. I have owned several Motorola phones before and have many friends that worked for Motorola a long time ago since Motorola was across the street from the Computer manufactures I worked for.

So many on this thread blamed T-Mobile for this issue when it was 100% a Motorola issue all along. T-Mobile is improving their network with new technology using VoLTE and apparently Motorola doesn't want to spent the money to make phones like others have that work work with VoLTE on T-Mobile. If LG, Samsung, HTC and others can make several phones that work and are FCC VoLTE Certified on T-Mobile with Band 12 then I sure don't see why Motorola isn't keeping up with current technology if they want to be a major phone provider.

 

[raino]

Yeah! Shame on you, Motorola for not letting TMO shake you down welcome you to the Uncarrier goodness with its voLTE certification fees.

 

[Ry]

T-Mobile: All Band 12 LTE devices on our network must support VoLTE, E911 - FierceWireless

T-Mobile US is not forcing smartphone makers to drop support for its 700 MHz A Block spectrum using LTE Band 12, as some reports have indicated, but it does require that OEMs that want to include Band 12 support also support Voice over LTE and E911 capabilities.

 

[Shilohcane]

Yeah! Shame on you, Motorola for not letting TMO shake you down welcome you to the Uncarrier goodness with its voLTE certification fees .

Raino do you really think T-Mobile has the power to approve or grant Motorola a FCC certification for VoLTE with E911? Got any proof that Moto even support VoLTE on their Moto E/G devices? Surprised that you don't blame T-Mobile for Global Warming.

This is the FCC doc that covers VoLTE and E911 ... Page 6 is where it starts to get detailed...

FCC E911 Requirements for IP-Enabled Service Providers