LG V20 - DAC Problem?

[irvine752]

Any idea why neutron plays concurrently with other players?

That's mostly due to the third party implementation of audio output. If they (the developers) are intentionally bypassing or are using generic outdated access calls to media output, the operating system won't be smart enough to detect that they're playing audio output.

At the same time, the operating system won't be able to stop to synch up everything & stop the others from playing as well. The operating system (for developers) provides an API for access to the phone's functionality for a reason. (i.e. so there won't be a conflict for resources).

 

[mlknez]

The V20 as it stands is capable of delivering a max resolution of 32 bits at 384 kHz. The frequency truncation you have brought up is mostly due to the DAC treating any slight excess electronic noise as distortion, and actively trying to compensate by cleaning out the sound. Yes, a quick firmware patch will & can address the issue if it makes any purists out there happy enough. The key is to be very careful with Synthetic testing, you don't want to introduce any eletronic noise especially to an overly sensetive system.

Pocket Now had quick video showcasing this issue:

But....that was not consistent enough to warrant calling the audio output quality a "placebo effect".The other THD spectrum testing was perfectly fine:
(bottom left corner frequency spectrum matched up with

The full video can be found below:]

He did not test hi-res audio files and because of that, did not see that the DAC is unable to be used to it's full potential.

 

[irvine752]

He did not test hi-res audio files and because of that, did not see that the DAC is unable to be used to it's full potential.

He didn't exactly specify what kind of files he used for testing...but if you look at the sound forge screenshot at around 3:19 he clearly has 96kHz at a 24 bit resolution sound sample. (Take a peek at the bottom right corner)

Also the 24 kHz limitation you mentioned before is clearly surpassed in the THD screenshots.

 

[mlknez]

He didn't exactly specify what kind of files he used for testing...but if you look at the sound forge screenshot at around 3:19 he clearly has 96kHz at a 24 bit resolution sound sample. (Take a peek at the bottom right corner)

Also the 24 kHz limitation you mentioned before is clearly surpassed in the THD screenshots.

Write him like I did and ask. The energy beyond 24khz was second harmonic noise.

 

[anon(903870)]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. You will be seeing a firmware update from LG in the next couple of weeks. They have confirmed what I have found. The way to test this is to:

1. Obtain a REAL hi-res audio recording such as something that was originally recorded at 96khz/24bit, not digitized from an analog recording or upsampled.
2.Open that file in Adobe Audition (you should see energy above 24 kHz in the frequency spectrum display)
3. copy that file to your V20
4. attach a hi-res digital recorder to your headphone out jack
5. be sure that the hi-fi indicator is on
6. start the recorder and capture at the same sample rate and depth as the original file or higher.
7. take that captured file and load it into Adobe Audition.
8. The files should look nearly identical in the frequency spectrum view (but they won't, because all energy above 24khz is gone)

This same methodology will work for any of the players that I have tried.

You're doing too much.

 

[Mike Dee]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

You're doing too much.

I wish I had that kind of time on my hands

 

[traviswhayne]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

The funny thing is most of this discussion is only going to affect the .01% of users who actually buy "true" Hi-Res music. If you use standard FLAC at 44KHZ or MP3 at say 256kbps or above what will really make a difference to you with this DAC is the noise reduction and amplification/gain if you're using high impedance headphones. If you are part of the .01%, until the DAC is fully able to support your files you may be upset, everyone else should probably move along.

 

[chazglenn3]

I'm completely happy using my Sony headphones which show as high impedance when connected and the alpha 4 version of Poweramp. My tunes have never been louder or better sounding.

 

[mlknez]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

You're doing too much.

I am trying to give everyone a method to independently validate my findings.

 

[mlknez]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

The funny thing is most of this discussion is only going to affect the .01% of users who actually buy "true" Hi-Res music. If you use standard FLAC at 44KHZ or MP3 at say 256kbps or above what will really make a difference to you with this DAC is the noise reduction and amplification/gain if you're using high impedance headphones. If you are part of the .01%, until the DAC is fully able to support your files you may be upset, everyone else should probably move along.

If you are in that .01%, then you are 100% unsatisfied. You were sold one thing but delivered another.

When I started this thread, I was under the mistaken idea that the ES9218 DAC was why people would purchase this phone as it is the only truly unique feature of this phone. I have now come to understand that people like the combination of features found in other phones that are put together in this phone. The DAC is just icing on the cake to most people.

Personally, i purchased this phone because it was a quality music player that happens to make calls.

 

[pvcleave]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

If you are in that .01%, then you are 100% unsatisfied. You were sold one thing but delivered another.

When I started this thread, I was under the mistaken idea that the ES9218 DAC was why people would purchase this phone as it is the only truly unique feature of this phone. I have now come to understand that people like the combination of features found in other phones that are put together in this phone. The DAC is just icing on the cake to most people.

Personally, i purchased this phone because it was a quality music player that happens to make calls.

One of the big reasons I purchased the phone was for the audio capabilities. Not the only reason. I liked the second screen, 5.7 inch screen, replaceable battery, to name a few. However, I do not have high res files, mine are al; 16, 44 FLAC files. So there are people that purchased for audio capabilities, but you are talking about a level, that not as many people listen to.

 

[tadpoles]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

The funny thing is most of this discussion is only going to affect the .01% of users who actually buy "true" Hi-Res music. If you use standard FLAC at 44KHZ or MP3 at say 256kbps or above what will really make a difference to you with this DAC is the noise reduction and amplification/gain if you're using high impedance headphones. If you are part of the .01%, until the DAC is fully able to support your files you may be upset, everyone else should probably move along.

It seems like if you are part of that .01% you may be more likely to be using something more specialized like a AudioQuest DragonFly Red or better.

 

[Mike Dee]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

It seems like if you are part of that .01% you may be more likely to be using something more specialized like a AudioQuest DragonFly Red or better.

I usually go with Knob Creek. It gets me to .04% quicker

 

[irvine752]

Write him like I did and ask. The energy beyond 24khz was second harmonic noise.

I think you might have misconstrued the concept of harmonics. The whole idea of measuring THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) is to gauge the purity of a sound noise. THD is the RMS amplitude ratio of higher harmonics (second harmonic noise/distortion is also included in the summation as well) to the fundamental (ie the original signal). For the V20 that ratio is extremely low (around 0.0019%) thanks to four DACs pipelined in the chipset. This is where the V20 truly shines & beats the competition. It's very hard to get such a pure signal even with a Balanced output with two DACs pipelined.

If you got an email back from the reviewer saying that anything higher than 24kHz was second harmonic noise, then he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about & he clearly wasn't responsible for the stats collected for the video. For your particular test case though, you're running into the effects of the Nyquist Theorem (sounding aliasing) when you go from the AUX analog to digital, and also when you increase your sampling resolution you also effectively increase the electronic noise floor.

 

[anony_mouse]

I've read that 16-bit 48khz is the low side and that higher 24bit/192khz is audibly better but it sounds like you're disputing that.

Yes I am.

 

[anony_mouse]

Re: Serious V20 Problem!!

Well. The frequency range and bit depth were also decided based on means of transportation for recordings to CD publishing houses. It was not purely based on absolute sound quality.

You have provided effectively zero data to debunk why a properly mastered high resolution file sounds better than CD quality and have instead stuck to frequency response and bit depth.

I thought everybody knew why 44.1kHz is enough, in case you're not aware the reasons are summarised concisely with references here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/44,100_Hz

Otherwise, I have already provided other evidence. See for example: 24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed

I have not claimed it has anything to do with frequency or bit depth specifically (though but definition of "high resolution" I also can't say unequivocally that it doesn't). I have claimed that I can hear a difference and that one sounds better than the other. I have stated that I ruled out placebo. I did not state why I think it sounds better because science does not know the answer.

Then what are you saying? Are you comparing like with like?
This is what I am saying. Take a high resolution sound file (there are good reasons to use >48kHz and especially greater than 16 bits during recording). Convert it properly to 48kHz (or 44.1kHz) and 16 bits. Listen to both the original and the downsampled versions in a blind A/B test. People are not able to tell the difference (i.e. preference tends to 50% for each over repeated tests).

From what you say, it sounds like you may be comparing differently mastered versions. It's certainly possible that you can tell the difference between versions derived from different original masters, because they are, well, different.

We're stuck with non-scientific terms like "airyness", "dynamics", "impact" and others that can be interpreted in different ways.

My point is that your insistence on making the point of "CD quality is all we need" does not properly explain why people can hear an audible difference between better than CD quality and CD quality.

Much like 24fps for video was decided on because of film cost, CD quality was decided because it was the bare minimum needed to reproduce the frequency range of human hearing on the available means of transportation at the time. It was at least partially (if not entirely) a cost saving decision.

That does not make it the "ceiling" for audio quality.

24fps video and 44.1kHz audio is not a valid comparison. 44.1kHz was chosen because it was and is a bit over 2x20kHz, so above the Nyquist limit. You can call that the bare minimum if you like, but it's a bare minimum to cover what humans can actually hear and therefore is by definition good enough.

24fps was chosen indeed partly for practical reasons (although curiously audiences seem to prefer it over higher frame rates for cinematic content - but that's a discussion for another thread).

 

[mlknez]

...missing the point of this post... it is not to debate whether or not hi-res audio is a good or bad thing. This post is to get LG to fix the firmware that is not allowing the full use of hardware that was included and sold as a feature.

 

[anony_mouse]

...missing the point of this post... it is not to debate whether or not hi-res audio is a good or bad thing. This post is to get LG to fix the firmware that is not allowing the full use of hardware that was included and sold as a feature.

But this is exactly the point - whatever the supposed capabilities of the DAC it would be a waste of time to run it at higher than 48kHz sample rate and 16 bit resolution. If it's a good DAC you are still getting the best out of it with that input.

Does the SoC used by the V20 support audio output to the DAC above those figures? Does Android? They might be the limiting factors.

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

But this is exactly the point - whatever the supposed capabilities of the DAC it would be a waste of time to run it at higher than 48kHz sample rate and 16 bit resolution. If it's a good DAC you are still getting the best out of it with that input.

Does the SoC used by the V20 support audio output to the DAC above those figures? Does Android? They might be the limiting factors.

Android does. And the OEM can add to that if they choose to.

 

[Leroy Bad]

Where is the LG Audio Player? my V20 (Sprint) didn't include one, just the Google Play Music player .