mosque on ground zero

[paul_aka_paul]

Mosques are not symbols of conquest. They are houses of prayer and worship. Unless you live in a real small town, there is likely a mosque near you.

Islam didn't attack us. Terrorists who have a warped idea of Islam did. The fact that so many people either can't or won't differentiate the two groups shows why we NEED this mosque. Too many Americans think they were introduced to Islam on September 11, 2001. Terrorism is not representative of Islam.

I understand the pain felt by those who lost family members during the attacks. I understand why some of them have stood up to protest the mosque. Some have stood up in support as well. They are divided. Muslims are divided in their support. There are solid arguments to made on both sides.

I just want to make sure that the other arguments - the ones made by the willfully ignorant and the those who don't know any better - are countered. Mosques are not trophies and Islam is not our enemy.

 

[TucsonChuck]

Mosques are not symbols of conquest. They are houses of prayer and worship. Unless you live in a real small town, there is likely a mosque near you.

Islam didn't attack us. Terrorists who have a warped idea of Islam did. The fact that so many people either can't or won't differentiate the two groups shows why we NEED this mosque. Too many Americans think they were introduced to Islam on September 11, 2001. Terrorism is not representative of Islam.

I understand the pain felt by those who lost family members during the attacks. I understand why some of them have stood up to protest the mosque. Some have stood up in support as well. They are divided. Muslims are divided in their support. There are solid arguments to made on both sides.

I just want to make sure that the other arguments - the ones made by the willfully ignorant and the those who don't know any better - are countered. Mosques are not trophies and Islam is not our enemy.

I'm thankful that your willing to enlighten us on Islam, I am confused... Can you start with these? Thanks

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshiping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshiping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

8:67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9:33. It is He {Allah} Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).


Building mosques over churches, synagogues and temples of the conquered people was started by Muhammad, who converted the Ka'ba temple of the Arabs in Mecca into an Islamic mosque.

The mosque over the temple of Solomon in Jerusalem is one example. When Muslims conquered the Byzantine Empire they converted the biggest church in Christian empire into a mosque. In India, over 2,000 mosques stand on the site of destroyed Hindu temples.

 

[paul_aka_paul]

Always happy to help, TusconChuck. The verses you cite are from Surahs 8 and 9. These are early surahs that came during the Medina years. This was the first Muslim community that was under constant attack by the people of Mecca. The intended audience is that early community and the non-believers referenced are specifically those people of Mecca. They are not general commands to kill and conquer all non-believers at all times in all locations.

The Ka'ba is believed by Muslims to have been built by Abraham and Ishmael. In their eyes they were restoring it, not conquering it. The Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem was not built because it was a Jewish site, but because Muslims claim early Biblical stories as their own as well. They also believe that to be the spot where Muhammad was taken on a trip to heaven. These were not marks of conquest. They were celebrations of sites that were holy on their own in the Muslim faith.

As for building on top of other sites - that is hardly a Muslim only tradition. Christians have done it as well. They have also incorporated local customs to help make their religion seem less foreign.

 

[cr3amy]

TucsonChuck, there's a lot of talk about mass murder and harming others in the Bible, as well. It's easy to blow that off because fundamental Christians haven't been as murderous recently as they were previously in history, but I presume you wouldn't consider murder to be an integral part of the Christian faith?

My point here is that just because it's written there, it doesn't mean it should be followed in any/all circumstances. This goes for the Bible as well as the Koran. And just because some people have killed in the name of a religion, it doesn't mean it's a violent religion. This goes for Islam as well as Christianity.

 

[TucsonChuck]

Thanks Pual, it is my understanding that later in Muhammads life the Verse of the Sword abrogates their peaceful injunctions in accordance with 2:106.

More confused then ever

 

[TucsonChuck]

TucsonChuck, there's a lot of talk about mass murder and harming others in the Bible, as well. It's easy to blow that off because fundamental Christians haven't been as murderous recently as they were previously in history, but I presume you wouldn't consider murder to be an integral part of the Christian faith?

My point here is that just because it's written there, it doesn't mean it should be followed in any/all circumstances. This goes for the Bible as well as the Koran. And just because some people have killed in the name of a religion, it doesn't mean it's a violent religion. This goes for Islam as well as Christianity.

Your right, but not being a Christian, I have to take you word that the bible calls for murder and harming others. I need to look into that too.

Thanks

 

[paul_aka_paul]

The Verse of the Sword is 9:5, and is also part of the Medinan surahs directed at that early audience and referencing specifically those in Mecca that they were at war with.

 

[TucsonChuck]

Ok maybe I'm slow but...

When the Muslims reached Medina and were still vulnerable:

2:256. There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut {idolatry} and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

In contrast, 9:5, the "Verse of the Sword", revealed toward the end of Muhammad's life:

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} ...

A change of heart?

 

[paul_aka_paul]

Ok maybe I'm slow but...

When the Muslims reached Medina and were still vulnerable:

2:256. There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut {idolatry} and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

In contrast, 9:5, the "Verse of the Sword", revealed toward the end of Muhammad's life:

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} ...

A change of heart?

They are dealing with completely different issues. As I stated already, the non-believers referenced in Surah 9 are those in Mecca. The Muslims at that time were at war with them. Those non-believers at that time were to be killed not because they were non-believers, but because they were at war.

When the fighting ended, the non-believers in Mecca who remained were treated as is prescribed in 2:256. They were not forced to become Muslims. Their idols at the Ka'ba were destroyed, but they were not forced into Islam.

 

[TucsonChuck]

Paul thanks for your patience, and indulgence

From various traditional Muslim biographies of Muhammad... Are they incorrect?

After the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad ....

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177; Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour {of the Last Judgment} will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24; Narrated Ibn Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshiped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

 

[paul_aka_paul]

Paul thanks for your patience, and indulgence

From various traditional Muslim biographies of Muhammad... Are they incorrect?

After the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad ....

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177; Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour {of the Last Judgment} will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24; Narrated Ibn Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshiped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Those are from the Hadith, and my knowledge of them is not what I would hope it was. Those are quotes attributed to Muhammad, in these examples by Abu Huraira and Ibn Umar. I don't know for sure what the time frame for these quotes are, nor do I have a quick research tool handy to reference. It is likely on the internet but so far all I have found are the texts themselves without commentary. They might be from after Muhammad took Mecca as your intro the quotes implies. I don't know for sure at this time.

 

[81]

this is america. have we forgotten the whole freedom of religion thing?

 

[TucsonChuck]

this is America. have we forgotten the whole freedom of religion thing?

+1... If only everyone felt the same...

9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

 

[Raven71]

How many of you remember what happened that day. How many of you were there? So let me first say that a long time ago, I took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States. With that in mind I say they have a right.
Now again let me ask who remembers, who lives here and who lost a family member of their family that day?
I myself lost 4 partners and over 166 friends. No joke my e-mail list got very short.
Let me tell you that I picked up pieces of people breathed in their remains along with plverized cement and who knows what else. I am on a FDNY 3/4 disability from having a building almost fall on me. Three operations, loss of hearing and on meds you most likely never heard of. I walk around in a back brace on most days.
Sure the first Amendment is on their side and if it was not for alterior motives I would say go ahead. But the truth is this is not to build bridges. This is to shove it into the face of every American. Whether you are an American Muslim or whatever your religious belief. Nationalities or whatever you believe in. This is wrong and if you think it is right then you were not there or understand WTF happened. You didn't see what I saw or see all those peaceful Muslim's cheering in the streets of Brooklyn and Atlantic ave.
You didn't go to funerals for months after or see the pictures hanging on walls and boards looking for loved ones. You don't look every day at a open hole in the ground for the last 10 years. Or realize they are still finding pieces of people in the area. You don't watch families still trying to come to terms and see the children of my partners growing up without their dad. Ask them what they think about a so called cultural center.
By the way that Greek Orthodox Church is where I went for refuge through the day and where they took the body of the decapitated FDNY priest. Ten years later the Blumburg administration can't find money or permits to fix it, but they will bend backwards to help build this Mosque to shove it in the face of America. Ask what his political motives are that POS so called mayor.
Anyone of you who think it is right are no better then the terrorists who flew the jets into the Towers or the Pentagon. You should be ashamed and you have no idea what we are going through.

Ret LT. FDNY/EMS Medic

 

[cr3amy]

a long time ago, I took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States. With that in mind I say they have a right.

...

Sure the first Amendment is on their side and if it was not for alterior motives I would say go ahead. But the truth is this is not to build bridges. This is to shove it into the face of every American. Whether you are an American Muslim or whatever your religious belief. Nationalities or whatever you believe in. This is wrong and if you think it is right then you were not there or understand WTF happened.

If this is the kind of argument I'm up against, then I'm done here. "I took an oath to defend the Constitution and they have a right... but because of their motives this is wrong and shouldn't be allowed." That's not how it works...

I'm sorry dude, but where in the Constitution does it say your rights are only applicable if and only if you have the best intentions.

Anyone of you who think it is right are no better then the terrorists who flew the jets into the Towers or the Pentagon.

Okay I'm really done here.

 

[Raven71]

Lol .yea ur done here. It should have been one of ur family or friends that died there. Then we would see what side of the fence you stood on. Like I said they have the 1St amendment on their side. Still they don't have common sense to realize they should move it some place else.
There is more to this then meets the eye. The funny thing is most Muslim's that I know are against it. The problem is they are afraid to voice their opnion. They are afraid of retribution from the fanatics in their community.
Say anything bad of their religion or make a remark about the koran and see what happens. That's what you are standing for. So if you don't like it move to a Muslim country and see what talking about Jesus or wanting to build a church wil get you.

 

[cr3amy]

Lol .yea ur done here. It should have been one of ur family or friends that died there.

Well f*ck you, too.

Like I said they have the 1St amendment on their side. Still they don't have common sense to realize they should move it some place else.

Thank you for agreeing with me. I accept your apology.

 

[Jerry Hildenbrand]

And as expected, thread gets closed. Thanks for playing, enjoy the home game.