Multitasking - Solutions Found?

[ufergus]

Hello all, I don't post here often but I ran into a friend at a bbq who is an engineer for HTC. After chatting for a while I asked him about the multitasking issue and if HTC was going to do anything about it. He said they are aware of the issue and working on a solution but didn't know anything about a time line. Take it or leave it but I trust him as a source. He carried a One X himself so he would appreciate it getting fixed too.

 

[evang07]

Interesting, if this actually happened then all we have to do is wait. I'm hoping for the best.. Thanks for the info.

Sent from my EVO using Android Central Forums

 

[zmann]

Funny, I got a email back from HTC and they told me I'm wrong,, multitasking is just fine. They said they are aware that the "enthusiasts" are not happy but tuff,, nothing is wrong. I wrote back and said "please don't insult my intelligence" and went on to give them my experience again. They wrote back once again and the dude explained to me everything he does with his and he has no issues. So from my point of view there seems to be a stand off going on here.

Sent from my EVO 4g lte

 

[crxssi]

Funny, I got a email back from HTC and they told me I'm wrong,, multitasking is just fine. They said they are aware that the "enthusiasts" are not happy but tuff,, nothing is wrong. I wrote back and said "please don't insult my intelligence" and went on to give them my experience again. They wrote back once again and the dude explained to me everything he does with his and he has no issues. So from my point of view there seems to be a stand off going on here.

That is a standard response they send to everyone. I am not going to make excuses for them, but it is pretty "normal" for a company to have a "party line" which minimizes and glosses over issues. You did the right thing to complain- I wish everyone would.

Getting hundreds of complaints, they are going to sound pretty stupid telling us that we are all wrong. I am confident there are people at HTC that completely agree with us, but they are not allowed to say so...

 

[zmann]

That is a standard response they send to everyone. I am not going to make excuses for them, but it is pretty "normal" for a company to have a "party line" which minimizes and glosses over issues. You did the right thing to complain- I wish everyone would.

Getting hundreds of complaints, they are going to sound pretty stupid telling us that we are all wrong. I am confident there are people at HTC that completely agree with us, but they are not allowed to say so...

Yea I got the standard response but it was funny, the second response was this guy telling me how he uses his phone and tells me he has no issues with multitasking on his phone, lol.


Sent from my EVO 4g lte

 

[Quis89]

Here is the response that I got from HTC after emailing them about my issues,

"Dear Marquis Jones,

Actually, it is the way it was intended. It's meant to save active memory. I can however, understand how this would be an annoyance in the circumstances you've given to me. While I don't have a way to disable the way that it?s functioning, I can forward your feedback on to the right people to ensure that it gets reviewed. Again, Marquis, I apologize for the inconvenience you've found in this."

Step in the right direction I guess. Hopefully something gets done at some point.


Sent from my EVO using Android Central Forums

 

[RyDawgBoston]

Yea I got the standard response but it was funny, the second response was this guy telling me how he uses his phone and tells me he has no issues with multitasking on his phone, lol.




Sent from my EVO 4g lte

Some people do not know what true multitasking is. They think just because they can tap a button and it brings you into a recent program, it's multitasking.
True multitasking freezes a program and keeps it suspended until you return, with NO reloading or refreshing.

If a website Page reloads or email reloads and takes more than 1 second, it's not multitasking.

For example, go into your calculator and type something in, then close out the program. Go back in 1 hour and it will disappear. It happens all the time.

True multitasking will keep those figures you typed in forever, even if you restarted your phone.

HTC states that the multitasking is perfect, but it is messed up. They are not going to fix it neither.

 

[Habiib]

Someone check my stupidity. If memory constraints are the real issue, would it be possible to use 500MB - 1GB of internal storage to act as a Virtual Memory address space (almost like a pagefile)?

 

[crxssi]

Some people do not know what true multitasking is. [...]
True multitasking freezes a program and keeps it suspended until you return, with NO reloading or refreshing.

No, true multitasking does NOT freeze a program. The programs continue to run and will be aware they no longer have focus (screen). They can then decide if they want to sleep until they have the screen again or until they need to perform some other function, like continuing to download something, upload something, compute something, generate a notification, etc. They *might* be frozen (suspended) if the OS requires yet more memory for even more tasks/apps, but in a properly working/balanced system, that should only happen after more than several working apps are already loaded. It is a bit complex, because apps can also be categorized by their priority based on function (some apps have nothing useful to offer when they have no screen and are easy to reload without disruption, for example).

If a website Page reloads or email reloads and takes more than 1 second, it's not multitasking.

Correct.

For example, go into your calculator and type something in, then close out the program. Go back in 1 hour and it will disappear. It happens all the time.

True multitasking will keep those figures you typed in forever, even if you restarted your phone.

No. Your first sentence is correct. The second is not- at least not in the traditional model of computing. Active programs are stored in RAM and have no need to save their active state to non-volatile storage (which would be a suspend and restore model). That is something an OS *could* do, but it is not required for multitasking. Android does both... but a correct implementation should not leave the last few recent programs in a state where they should have to be forced to suspend and restore.

HTC states that the multitasking is perfect, but it is messed up. They are not going to fix it neither.

You are probably correct. The major problem is that there is simply not enough memory on the device to keep more than one or a few things running. Why? Because the OS + Sense and other stuff HTC puts on the device are not leaving enough reasonable working space available for the applications. Since, unlike traditional Unix/Linux, there is no swap space available, the app must be suspended in order to make enough working memory available for the newly opened app. This normally should not occur until after you have rotated through several typical apps.

And this is why the GS3 has 2 GB of memory instead of 1GB, and why they should have done the same with the Evo LTE... *OR* they should have reduced the size of Sense to compensate.

Obviously the amount of RAM is fixed and cannot change. This leaves HTC with two options- tweak the way task management is handled and/or reduce the size of Sense and other OS demands to free the normal available pool of memory. They have boxed themselves in now and probably will not be able to do much with Sense without ripping out "kewl" stuff, like their full-screen, card-like recently-used app chooser. That leaves just some tweaking... and that might help a bit, but it is not going to fix the problem.

 

[crxssi]

Someone check my stupidity. If memory constraints are the real issue, would it be possible to use 500MB - 1GB of internal storage to act as a Virtual Memory address space (almost like a pagefile)?

Memory constraints ARE the core of the issue (as far as I can tell) and how the system is programmed to deal with the constraints. Theoretically yes, you can use a swap file for virtual memory. And Android is Linux and Linux is Unix, so of course this is already something that could be done (since it has been done in Linux for at least 20 years and in Unix for at least 40 years).

However, it is rather complicated on a phone which is ALSO designed to suspend apps and drop apps that are ignored. Remember- the operational model of a phone is not the same as a desktop computer. You typically don't "close" apps when you are done with them in Android.

Even with virtual memory, you would still need enough actual memory to keep from "thrashing". Thrashing would occur when memory is so low that to keep everything running, the OS has to swap bits and pieces of things in and out of RAM continuously and it eats up so much CPU and OS time doing so that performance of the system is destroyed (along with the battery). I suspect even non-thrashing paging activity would still hurt performance (and battery) enough to notice.

Still, it is an interesting thought. Of course the real solution would have been to simply increase the memory to 1.5, 1.75, or 2GB. Even 2GB would probably have only raised the price of the phone $10 or $15. But that is water under the bridge. At this point, the only way to really fix it is to reduce the overhead of the OS and Sense components.... or to reflash the phone with a third-party ROM that has a much lighter memory footprint.

 

[RyDawgBoston]

I know my og Evo would switch between programs without any restarting. I even remembered opening up my calculator 1 month after I used it and it still had figures punched in. I used to swap batteries daily too.

I don't know how a phone that old with such low specs could pull it off, but a supercharged model with great specs can't.

I sure hope they fix this in their next lineup of phones.

 

[Nreeldeep]

I know my og Evo would switch between programs without any restarting. I even remembered opening up my calculator 1 month after I used it and it still had figures punched in. I used to swap batteries daily too.

I don't know how a phone that old with such low specs could pull it off, but a supercharged model with great specs can't.

I sure hope they fix this in their next lineup of phones.

I HOPE there's another lineup of phones.

 

[Love Divine]

This has been troubling to me since I've gotten the phone. In practice, it's only a minor inconvenience to me; I can definitely see how it would really annoy others though.

Other phones run ICS fine with 1gb of RAM. It's got to be a Sense issue. I believe software tweaks can entirely fix this. Either tweak the memory management or lighten up sense.

 

[Nreeldeep]

This has been troubling to me since I've gotten the phone. In practice, it's only a minor inconvenience to me; I can definitely see how it would really annoy others though.

Other phones run ICS fine with 1gb of RAM. It's got to be a Sense issue. I believe software tweaks can entirely fix this. Either tweak the memory management or lighten up sense.

A poster who realizes that though he may not be experiencing issues with a particular feature of a device, he can see how it might be troublesome to others! Apparently his self worth is not predicated on defending mechanical devices.
I never tire of reading reasoned posts by obviously well adjusted adults.

 

[bpdamas]

I agree with some previous comments that it is a minor annoyance but not completely detrimental to my phone experience. Sometimes it does get rather annoying. However, I have found some success by switching between apps very quickly not giving the app a chance to need to reload. It only works with some apps and doesn't work every time.

Now I know this isn't a solution but this could be the start to finding one. It sounds a little like the sense rebooting bug found in the EVO Shift 4G. Especially since it appears to not have the same issue on non-sense based ROMS, ex. CM9. Anyway, check out this post for the fix to the sense bug. You needed root to perform this but once done the issue went completely away.

SprintUsers.com - View Single Post - Sense Rebooting Problem

Maybe there is a way to lock certain apps into memory dynamically so they don't have to reload. I don't know what this will do to battery life or general operation of the phone but it could be a start. Also, maybe HTC could give an option to select apps that can truly multitask, i.e. use the camera and browser and switch between the two without either reloading.

These are all just ideas I thought I would share and since there don't seem to be any solutions I didn't feel bad for posting this.

 

[Saneless]

Based on what I've seen, Sense/HTC seems to attack application's memory cache more aggresively than stock opposed to the memory itself.

For instance, let's say on startup that Tapatalk uses 30MB of RAM. As you use it and it's caching things, it will start to take up more. Maybe it'll take up 50MB after you view different topics.

What Sense/HTC does is wipe out that cache almost immediately after going into another app. So while Tapatalk will NOT close, it will be knocked down to its 30MB state. What forum you were in, threads that were cached, etc is all gone. The application file itself wasn't messed with.

That's what sense does - it aggressively wipes out app cache in memory REGARDLESS of how much memory is free. That's the boneheaded move and that's the issue with Sense. Even if you have 150MB free and open a tiny 20MB app, it will wipe out memory cache for things and that's why things reload.

I'm not an expert but that's what I see - more apps getting knocked down to cache-less states rather than closed completely all the time.

 

[digink#AC]

Wasn't Sense 4 supposed to be more 'lightweight' than the previous iterations?

How in the hell does this device have LESS RAM then my original EVO with a supposedly lighter version of Sense yet they had to get aggressive with the memory management.

While this doesn't bug me on a day to day basis I was trying to upload a few files to drop box, if my screen wasn't on with me actively in the app it just stopped. If I switched to something else or went to the homescreen it'd stop uploading.

HTC has crippled one of the defining features of Android... I wish there were an easy way to get rid of this phone and go to something that works well, plus development on this phone has been slow at best.

 

[crxssi]

Based on what I've seen, Sense/HTC seems to attack application's memory cache more aggresively than stock opposed to the memory itself.[...]
That's what sense does - it aggressively wipes out app cache in memory REGARDLESS of how much memory is free. That's the boneheaded move and that's the issue with Sense. Even if you have 150MB free and open a tiny 20MB app, it will wipe out memory cache for things and that's why things reload.

I'm not an expert but that's what I see - more apps getting knocked down to cache-less states rather than closed completely all the time.

I agree that this does seem to explain some of the behavior. One still has to ask what HTC's motivation would be to make such a change. And I think that motivation was that they knew they were left with a smaller pool of free memory due to ICS using more and Sense using MUCH more. They thought they could combat that somewhat by changing things.... and it might work for not having to completely load an app fresh, but if everything the app was doing is either lost or has to be reloaded PLUS some apps are frozen and can't even background task, it still destroys the user experience as much or more than if they had left it alone.

HTC chose eye-candy and feature bloat over proper multitasking/memory management/task switching. And they expected that most users care more about eye-candy and Sense features over proper base functionality. And they are probably correct.

So I reach the same conclusion- the Evo LTE doesn't have enough total memory and/or Sense is too big. HTC's tampering might help in some cases and hurt in others, but doesn't solve the base problem. I could be wrong- maybe HTC can pull out some magic settings changes that make enough difference to shut us all up. But at this point, I think it is very unlikely. We all question if HTC even WANTS to try and "fix" it, and even if they do, I don't think they are willing to do what it takes to fix it. After much thought, I am beginning to agree with others who think the only solution is to flash something like an AOSP ROM; although one then gets to deal with the headaches of complex manual updates that also completely wipe the phone each time, voiding the warranty, and probably issues with proprietary hardware (LTE radios, camera effects, etc) not working perfectly.

There is no "winning".

 

[Darth Mo]

I agree that this does seem to explain some of the behavior. One still has to ask what HTC's motivation would be to make such a change.

...

There is no "winning".

I believe 100% that the reason is battery life.

I don't document every occurrence, but the most common complaint I hear about Android phones (or smart phones in general) is the battery life.

Users set their phones down with 75% battery remaining but five hours later with no use the battery is dead. Realistically, it's probably a game or rogue app that doesn't sleep and decides it needs to check for updates every thirty seconds which kills the battery. When the battery dies without the owner "using" the phone then boom; the phone has crappy battery life.

Enter HTC's latest solution to "suspend" core apps and "half kill" everything else and you no longer have runaway apps that drain your battery in the background. With the vast majority of device owners they're using the suspended core apps that hang for a second when you return but refresh to their previous state.

However, on the contrary, many of those "half killed" apps freak out because some of their working memory has been reclaimed. So best case scenario is the app keeps running in the background playing your music or whatever. Next best scenario is the app suspends and when you return it at least remembers where you were. The worst case scenario is when the app reloads as if you've never opened it.

But in the grand scheme of things, battery life is phenomenal because the phone is as much asleep as possible but still keeping communications. You'd probably have a difficult time finding one out of ten people who would balk against this method of "multi-tasking."

It's not a bad marketing strategy; you'll sell more phones based on battery life than you will touting an obscure ICS function.

 

[digink#AC]

I believe 100% that the reason is battery life.

I don't document every occurrence, but the most common complaint I hear about Android phones (or smart phones in general) is the battery life.

Users set their phones down with 75% battery remaining but five hours later with no use the battery is dead. Realistically, it's probably a game or rogue app that doesn't sleep and decides it needs to check for updates every thirty seconds which kills the battery. When the battery dies without the owner "using" the phone then boom; the phone has crappy battery life.

Enter HTC's latest solution to "suspend" core apps and "half kill" everything else and you no longer have runaway apps that drain your battery in the background. With the vast majority of device owners they're using the suspended core apps that hang for a second when you return but refresh to their previous state.

However, on the contrary, many of those "half killed" apps freak out because some of their working memory has been reclaimed. So best case scenario is the app keeps running in the background playing your music or whatever. Next best scenario is the app suspends and when you return it at least remembers where you were. The worst case scenario is when the app reloads as if you've never opened it.

But in the grand scheme of things, battery life is phenomenal because the phone is as much asleep as possible but still keeping communications. You'd probably have a difficult time finding one out of ten people who would balk against this method of "multi-tasking."

It's not a bad marketing strategy; you'll sell more phones based on battery life than you will touting an obscure ICS function.

In all honesty, if this is the case, why does the Galaxy S3 also have incredible battery life with essentially the exact same internals as the E4GLTE?

If your approach was true, it would be something I could live with because I absolutely LOVE the battery life on the E4GLTE compared to my OG Evo. I use the hell out of my phone and can easily get 15 hours of battery life which will last me well throughout the day.

I have trouble swallowing that pill, however, based on looking at other devices such as the S3 which multitask like stock Android and also have the superior battery life seen in newer devices.

Finally, if I have to eat this multitasking bug to enjoy this battery life due to Sense, it is something I can live with because like you said I much rather have great battery life than worrying about multitasking. I don't experience the multitasking issues like some because it is only on rare occasions that I use it in its full form, but boy does it really throw a monkey wrench when you go to an app and all of your stuff is gone or refreshed.