Nokia blows off Android,goes with Windows Phone.
- Thread starter experiment 626
- Start date
sniffs
Well-known member
Microsoft = HUGE, DEEP pockets.
Nokia = Loves money? Microsoft buys their loyalty, and buys just about everything else, including ideas they pawn off as theirs.
Nokia = Loves money? Microsoft buys their loyalty, and buys just about everything else, including ideas they pawn off as theirs.
Noah Kravitz from Techno Buffalo said it best regarding Nokia and Microsoft on Twitter today:
"it's like two drunks holding each other up"
I totally agree.
"it's like two drunks holding each other up"
I totally agree.
Regarding this deal I heard it quoted as it now being a three horse race to smartphone share. Umm no, NOW it's a two horse race and we only need to place.
I cant see windows mobile ever being big in the united states. Theres too much more android, ios offer, than what microsoft can do. plus this ui is absolutely disgusting.
ottscay
Well-known member
There are two plausible explanations here IMO:
1) There is obviously a lot of turmoil between the old Nokia corporate culture and any viable direction it can take itself. So Elop chose to go with MSFT, because they need Nokia as badly as Nokia needs WP7, making it feel more like a partnership than a whole-hog switch to being an OEM. Of course in practice that's still what they will be doing, but perhaps with a couple of extra sliced from the ecosystem pie.
2) MSFT is in effect pulling a stealth takeover of Nokia, and will acquire their IP (sorry, "do a merger") when their market cap gets to a reasonable level, letting MS do the Apple thing when it comes to controlling hardware/software, as well as owning many IP licenses to let them take a piece of Apple and Google's pie.
Normally I'd say it must be the first option, as a stealth takeover of this size in the middle of Europe would near insanity (especially since Elop just came from a MSFT VPship). Still, assuming it's scenario 1 it's hard to understand the timing of todays announcement. They should have announced a closer alliance with MSFT, that in exchange for marketing and development assistance (read: cash) they will be using Bing and other MS services in their lineup, and they will be looking at developing a high end WP7 phone. Then when they have a sexy piece of kit ready to sell (hopefully in time for the holidays) they announce they are switching to WP7.
Today's timing is awful. Their market share is already in freefall, but they announced they are EOLing Symbian over the next two years, which will speed up their market share losses. Worse, they announced today that the Qt development framework will not be supported, so they just flipped the bird to all of their Symbian developers. How well supported do you think Symbian apps will be over the next year or so? And with all of the job cuts they warned are coming, they are selling out the remainder of their good will in Europe as well.
Seriously, Nokia will be lucky if they are selling 1 out of every 10 smartphones around the world by the time a WP7 device with Nokia branding ships. And it will take even longer before they can produce one in the low cost range that serves most of the current distribution channels. It's really hard to understand why this move was announced at this time. Assuming Elop doesn't have ulterior motives, it's hard not to infer that he's in over his head here and is making some poor decisions.
1) There is obviously a lot of turmoil between the old Nokia corporate culture and any viable direction it can take itself. So Elop chose to go with MSFT, because they need Nokia as badly as Nokia needs WP7, making it feel more like a partnership than a whole-hog switch to being an OEM. Of course in practice that's still what they will be doing, but perhaps with a couple of extra sliced from the ecosystem pie.
2) MSFT is in effect pulling a stealth takeover of Nokia, and will acquire their IP (sorry, "do a merger") when their market cap gets to a reasonable level, letting MS do the Apple thing when it comes to controlling hardware/software, as well as owning many IP licenses to let them take a piece of Apple and Google's pie.
Normally I'd say it must be the first option, as a stealth takeover of this size in the middle of Europe would near insanity (especially since Elop just came from a MSFT VPship). Still, assuming it's scenario 1 it's hard to understand the timing of todays announcement. They should have announced a closer alliance with MSFT, that in exchange for marketing and development assistance (read: cash) they will be using Bing and other MS services in their lineup, and they will be looking at developing a high end WP7 phone. Then when they have a sexy piece of kit ready to sell (hopefully in time for the holidays) they announce they are switching to WP7.
Today's timing is awful. Their market share is already in freefall, but they announced they are EOLing Symbian over the next two years, which will speed up their market share losses. Worse, they announced today that the Qt development framework will not be supported, so they just flipped the bird to all of their Symbian developers. How well supported do you think Symbian apps will be over the next year or so? And with all of the job cuts they warned are coming, they are selling out the remainder of their good will in Europe as well.
Seriously, Nokia will be lucky if they are selling 1 out of every 10 smartphones around the world by the time a WP7 device with Nokia branding ships. And it will take even longer before they can produce one in the low cost range that serves most of the current distribution channels. It's really hard to understand why this move was announced at this time. Assuming Elop doesn't have ulterior motives, it's hard not to infer that he's in over his head here and is making some poor decisions.
Its an interesting matchthat could be a marriage of two big and rich companies that have an ecosystem that can challenge Apple and Google or it could be a hilarious mismatch that we watch fall apart for our own amusement. Either way for us as Android fans its better to have more horses in the race because it will spur on Google and the Android OEMs. It will be interesting to see if Samsung and LG and some of Microsofts other partners stick with WP7.
With the bankroll that Nokia has for R&D, this shouldn't have happened. Nokia has always had solid hardware, too bad they failed with their software. WP7 could be competitive with a modern UI, but with this marriage, I see nothing but more failure.
That's the point. Nokia's software sucks, but their hardware is great.
I don't know if any of you saw today, but there were stories about symbian engineers walking out of work early out of protest. Did any of you catch the number? There were 2500 software engineers just for symbian. That's INSANE. That right there is indicative of what is wrong with Nokia.
Here's why I think this is the smartest thing Nokia could have done: WP7 is a brilliant platform with immense potential. But it has very little hardware support right now. (The opposite is true of Nokia; it had great hardware and crummy software. ) By marrying Nokia's great hardware with the great software, each has a much better chance of survival. Couple that with all of the new integration between Nokia's services and WP7, and with what seems like a license for Nokia to do whatever it wants with WP7 on their devices, and you have a strategy that just might work.
Here's why they didn't choose Android either: they would have had ZERO say whatsoever over anything having to do with the platform. All they could do would be to develop skins a la Sense, but the core UI and experience would be the same. With the deal with Microsoft, they can do ANYTHING they want to WP7, AND they have a great deal of influence over the OS as its being nurtured and developed by Microsoft. Essentially, its the difference between Nokia having their hands in the development with WP7 right up to release, and only being able to get Android when Google says its ready.
Its an intriguing arrangement, and I'm interested to see how it plays out.
Joelist
Well-known member
Agreed this is an interesting partnership.
Contrary to the anti-MS FUD earlier in the thread, WP7 is a completely modern, first class OS. It has the best UI of the major smartphone OSes and excellent backend "plumbing".
Nokia brings first class hardware to the table, and gives WP7 an entry gate into Europe that the stupid EU is unlikely to mess with. Plus Nokia is getting permission to customize WP7 more than an OEM typically does. Now they already have stated they are not going to alter the Metro UI, but there are lots of places they can bring things they do better than MS into the OS. For example Nokia's imaging technology in smartphones is the most advanced in the world, and it is coming to WP7.
I do not think this threatens Android so much as it threatens iOS. This type of ecosystem creating alliance is aimed at Apple more than Android, where the focus is less on ecosystem and more on diversity.
Contrary to the anti-MS FUD earlier in the thread, WP7 is a completely modern, first class OS. It has the best UI of the major smartphone OSes and excellent backend "plumbing".
Nokia brings first class hardware to the table, and gives WP7 an entry gate into Europe that the stupid EU is unlikely to mess with. Plus Nokia is getting permission to customize WP7 more than an OEM typically does. Now they already have stated they are not going to alter the Metro UI, but there are lots of places they can bring things they do better than MS into the OS. For example Nokia's imaging technology in smartphones is the most advanced in the world, and it is coming to WP7.
I do not think this threatens Android so much as it threatens iOS. This type of ecosystem creating alliance is aimed at Apple more than Android, where the focus is less on ecosystem and more on diversity.
I definitely agree about Nokia's hardware but I thought MSFT insisted on keeping it's WP OS on a short leash like Apple does with iOS. If they let Nokia start customizing their version of WP won't Samsung and HTC demand the same freedoms? Won't WP OS become fragmented like Android has with different handset manufacturers offering OS upgrades as they see fit?
I think the decision is a decent risk for Nokia. They had a choice between being the big fish in the pond by using Windows, out they could be one of many players for Android, and a Johnny-come-lately at that. I know which option I'd choose if I was an arrogant CEO worried about my job!
Sent from my Sprint EVO using Tapatalk
Sent from my Sprint EVO using Tapatalk
Everything about this deal screams cold hard cash. By partnering with Microsoft, that's a huge fat check right up front. By going with Android, Nokia doesn't have that nice chunk of change sitting in their wallet until they configure, develop, release, and begin to sell something.
Which is ironic, seeing as how they had net income numbers of well over $2 billion in 2010.
Which is ironic, seeing as how they had net income numbers of well over $2 billion in 2010.
ottscay
Well-known member
True.
I don't think so. To be sure, WP7 is a very well done platform. But they already have plenty of vendors to have made a splash. Their problem is that consumers aren't interested in another ecosystem, i.e. WP7 is about 18 months too late. Adding Nokia as a WP7 OEM is unlikely to benefit them much more than adding Motorola would.
I recommend you go read this interview with WP7s Aaron Woodman, and you'll see that they are already dramatically tamping down discussion of letting Nokia meddle much under the hood of WP7. In fact Woodman refers to Nokia simply as a WP7 "OEM"...which possibly wasn't the most PC way he could have phrased it.
It's true that picking WP7 will solidify the use of Nokia's map services on that platform (which is a bit more revenue) but in the end that seems like a huge bet to make, rather than just being an OEM for multiple mobile OSes, if the OEM route is the one they are essentially taking.
In the end they'd probably have had a lot more freedom to alter the user experience on Android, but that's not what they really care about. They cut a deal to get revenue from their mapping service (which obviously Android doesn't need). And it'll only work if WP7 succeeds, which is not actually made much more likely by this deal. Nokia will end up in two years that much further behind making Android phones, with no access to the volume inexpensive smartphone market without Symbian. If they'd gone the all out OEM route they could have at least parlayed their strong hardware brand, while making WP7 phones, Android phones, Symbian phones (without any pressure to EOL them) and even Meego phones (albeit with a trimmed down and restructured development team).
As I said, the idea that Nokia will get free reign (or even significant freedom) to mess with WP7 turns out to be simply false; it's the type of over-reaching statements you'd expect from a CEO who knows he has a company in revolt over the decision. Also, given how poor Nokia's software development trackrecord is, why do you imagine that letting them meddle with WP7 development would be a positive thing for the platform? Don't you think MSFT is also aware of that?
Meh. It's intriguing in the sense that I've rarely seen such a poor decision as the one Nokia has chosen to pursue; and that's not a knock on WP7 either. Even if Nokia had decided it was in their best interest to move to WP7 they could have handled it soooo much better. They should never had announced exclusivity this far in advance of having a product ready to ship. They should never had EOLed Symbian publicly like this (it's going to cause their market share collapse this year and their developers to abandon ship, followed by the hemorrhaging of their distribution network and manufacturing channels).
If they'd announced a closer relationship with MS, including putting Bing on all their phones and WP7 officially adopting Nokia's maps, perhaps closer collaboration on their app stores, etc., that would have made sense. Announce they are looking into supplementing Symbina/Meego development with other platforms. Build a really top notch WP7 handset (hopefully ready before the holidays) and then if it garners good reviews announce you're dropping Meego for WP7.
But the way it's handled it will be a disaster for Nokia, and is unlikely to get WP7 more than 2-3% extra marketshare over the next 24 months, if that.
Last edited:
I definitely agree about Nokia's hardware but I thought MSFT insisted on keeping it's WP OS on a short leash like Apple does with iOS. If they let Nokia start customizing their version of WP won't Samsung and HTC demand the same freedoms? Won't WP OS become fragmented like Android has with different handset manufacturers offering OS upgrades as they see fit?
Nokia has been given special permission to modify WP7 as it sees fit, since it is now Microsoft's direct development partner. (anything Nokia does to it will filter back to WP7 as a whole.)
Wrong. The difference is that Nokia has a tremendous development and software development infrastructure already set up, larger than any other company's. The terms of the deal also are much more significant than just adding motorola; Nokia isn't just some OEM (the fact that you think so makes me think you've been reading too much AC or other Android blogs), they are microsoft's direct partner in WP7 development. Microsoft and Nokia sit at the top, and the other OEMS like HTC are below them.
Actually, that's not correct. Nokia has been given carte blanche to do what it wants to WP7. They have already said they won't, however, because they don't want to fragment the platform like Android. Reading your post, it also seems that you completely misunderstand the relationship between Nokia and Microsoft here; Nokia isn't just some OEM, they are going to be doing a fair bit of development and under the hood development with microsoft on the platform. They'll be doing far more than any other WP7 OEM will be allowed to do, and that's the terms of the deal.
Nokia says it can customize the heck out of Windows Phone, won't do anything that would delay updates -- Engadget
Also, read Woodman's interview again. Your statements above don't match anything he actually said.
Except it isn't. They're not just some OEM.
To put it bluntly; Nokia wanted no part of Android because its turning into a fragmented and over-crowded mess. We know for a FACT that Google refused to let Nokia alter any core elements of the OS, including stripping out Google Maps and other elements to replace them with Nokia versions, and instead told them they could just develop skins like the other OEMs. Frankly, Google could have had a big win getting Nokia on board, but Schmidt's (and I would wager Rubin's) ego wouldn't cede the fact that Nokia *might* just have some better ways of doing things, and wouldn't let them do it. For the lack of Android, blame Google.
Except it isn't. Both Nokia and Microsoft have said that that the former will be allowed deep access into WP7 that other partners will not have.
I would also kindly instruct to read the interview with Woodman again; he never said they wouldn't be allowed to customize. In fact, he said they WOULD be able to, and because of Nokia's special status, much of that should filter back up into WP7 as a whole. In fact, Woodman *specifically* says Nokia will be given the opportunity to make alterations to the OS that very well may not reach the other OEMs.
Nokia has a handset on the way. It should be here within the next 12 months if not sooner. What they specifically said is that they would not have MULTIPLE handsets out, because they need time to wind-down Symbian and Meego, as well as restructure.
I don't blame them for announcing what they did. In fact, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that Nokia had no other choice. Continuing to limp through the market, without a clear way forward, would have been far more damaging to the company than announcing what they did. There has been an arrogance in Nokia's management for years, that what they were doing was right, that the questions about it were not worthy of response. They needed a bold response to the criticism, and they needed a bold move away from what the company has become in the last few years. And that's what we got. This won't be a disaster for Nokia, because they finally have a clear direction.
It seems simple to me.
1) Elop is ex-Microsoft. Personally he is probably more inclined to go with WP7.
2) With Android, Nokia would have much more competition... HTC, Samsung, LG, Motorola etc. WP7 hasn't really broken out yet so Nokia has a chance to really be the brand people think of when they think WP7 devices.
3) Microsoft likely offered Nokia money to use some of their stuff... namely Ovi Maps... in WP7.
If Nokia had gone with Android, it would be game over for pretty much everyone other than Apple in the smartphone arena because Nokia is such a power in Asia, Africa and Europe. Them going with Microsoft leaves things open.
1) Elop is ex-Microsoft. Personally he is probably more inclined to go with WP7.
2) With Android, Nokia would have much more competition... HTC, Samsung, LG, Motorola etc. WP7 hasn't really broken out yet so Nokia has a chance to really be the brand people think of when they think WP7 devices.
3) Microsoft likely offered Nokia money to use some of their stuff... namely Ovi Maps... in WP7.
If Nokia had gone with Android, it would be game over for pretty much everyone other than Apple in the smartphone arena because Nokia is such a power in Asia, Africa and Europe. Them going with Microsoft leaves things open.
This is a red flag for other WP7 OEMs, which has NO RIGHT to decide on any customization on WP7. It also means Nokia's WP7 is differentiated (read, forked, fragmented) from the "rest".
I don't know you would raise this as a positive point when in fact this is a cause of alarm for other WP7 OEMs, which surely now have a vested interest against WP7.
Supporting WP7 means supporting Nokia which means their biggest competitor.
It is clear now what Samsung, LG, Motorola, HTC, Sony Ericsson, Huawei and ZTE has to do.
Similar threads
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram