[Podcast] Let's talk about the U.S. Galaxy S Froyo update

[icebike]

you can say "blame the carriers and bloatware" but, again, htc and moto.

this!

 

[TheANARCHY]

First... and possibly last... Android

The Samsung Fascinate that I bought for my wife and me was our first venture into Android. We left AT&T because they suck in our area. It may very well be our last Android phones too!

Thanks to the continued problems with the phone; GPS broke, car dock not working, capacitive buttons not staying lit, and in our case random reboots (since fixed with factory resets and I have rooted my phone), some of these issues are fixed. But I consider most of these problems things that the phone never should have shipped with.

I did research the phone prior to buying so the BING thing wasn't an issue and still isn't. But a number of apps we used before either don't exist in the market or have a more up to date version on the iPhones we used to have. I've had email replies from various app devs who all say the same thing... "With no clear set of boundaries on what Android build is being used by what phone on what carrier, we can't spend the time and resources to make an app that works for all platforms." In other words... Fragmentation. Yes the dreaded F word.

This update with the more than capable Galaxy S phones in the USA demonstrates the problem better than anything else I can think of. Not only is there no timeline from the phone vendor but the carriers put all their bloat on the phones too. This problem does not exist on a particular phone I can think of that just got announced on Verizon. Trade-offs be damned when it comes to ease of use and convenience for the customer. Android has a way to go to equal that user experience.

My wife is already selling her Fascinate on Gazelle.com (a great way to get rid of your used phones and you get a better price than on Ebay) and getting an iPhone again on the 3rd of Feb when she can preorder. She will pay full price happily just to be done with the hassles. I'm not there yet as I like this phone since it's rooted with a custom ROM. But come May of next year my choice of getting another Android or the iPhone 5 will be a damned hard one to make. :-\

 

[BSG75]

Ok, I'll start off by saying I'm an Epic owner from nearly the beginning. Perhaps I've been lucky but I have not encountered any of the major issues (gps, etc) people have reported. I'm not the biggest fan of what Samsung is doing (or more not doing) recently but really I don't care since I'm happy with it as is. Delayed/canceled updates are something that every manufacturer does, I remember waiting a very long time for HTC to update my previous phones to the point where I went ahead and did it myself via xda. Now I know rooting, etc is not for everyone but if it isn't your thing, and you are not happy with the phone you purchased, why did you keep it? A smartphone isn't a trivial purchase, you should be completely happy with it out of the box. Nowhere in your contract is the manufacturer committed to updated anything on the phone, yes we expect it but outside of warranty issues they really have no obligations. Most of them will probably go a step further because its good business to keep your customers happy but again, they are not required to.
That said, Samsung you've probably lost me as a future customer. The entire lack of transparency with the updates is bs, if there are problems releasing it just let us know, and that goes for any manufacturer.

The thing is Samsung (or hTC or Moto or any other manufacturer) is not the one coding the update. Google is doing ALL of the heavy lifting in putting out updates. Samsung just has to recompile and put it on their device, and put a lot less effort out than Google. If their TouchWiz is a PItA, then that's on them (of course, we go back to Europe doing just fine, as well as ROM cookers). My point is they get the OS for FREE (less some "with Google" branding costs) from Google, updates and all. They just need to retrofit a little.

 

[Jalarm]

I don't think it should be all put on Samsung. It is also partially the carriers fault, now I don't know that for sure but I mean we have seen leaked versions for I think all of the devices. Yes, it's obnoxious that we still don't have it (and I sold my captivate about a week ago, so I do know how Galaxy S owners feel.) My personal thought is that each of the carriers is waiting for another carrier to push it first so if there are any problems they could fix it and not look as bad. But, maybe I am wrong maybe Samsung just really could not handle it.

 

[ctleng76]

I have an hTC device. The bottom line is that hTC and Moto have been pretty good with updates. I'm on Verizon. With each vendor shipping out great phones, lazy updates will be a deciding factor for me. I don't plan on getting a Samsung device beause of these issues. Is it all Sammy's fault? Who knows? No one is saying what the problem is. Everyone is just wondering and speculating. If it's the carriers' faults, then Sammy needs to apply pressure because this is making them (Sammy) look bad. It's Samsung's phone in the end.

This is the free market in action. If someone isn't getting it done, go to someone who is. I'm just glad this is one industry (cell manufacturers) where there are viable alternatives.

You can say "blame the carriers and bloatware" but, again, hTC and Moto.

Sure you can just load a ROM, but just means you stop complaining. The persons at fault are basically let off the hook and continue their bad practices. Sometimes complaining is warranted and the "stop complaining" people should recognize this.

I agree 100%! We must NOT stop complaining. In fact, we should increase the number of complaints we file with both the carriers and the manufacturers.

 

[dsignori]

I think the the biggest problem revolving around this whole situation has been a complete lack of communication from both Verizon and Samsung. ...

Abso-freakin-lutely. This is soooo true. The lack of any feedback is going to lead to the kind of wild speculation and user revolt that we are seeing now. It is pretty amazing that not a word has been uttered from either company. You hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Big Guy]

Hardware issue?

I have a conspiracy theory for ya...

Ever thought that there may be a hardware problem with the Galaxy S phones that Samsung is trying to resolve or is preventing them from upgrading the phones?

I am on my third Bell Canada Vibrant (I9000M). The phones were upgraded to Froyo and subsequently bricked due to the internal SD cards failing. From what I hear this is a wide spread issue (Bell has a return policy where they give customers $100 credit in addition to a replacement phone). While I was getting my last phone replaced there was another customer returning their Vibrant at the same time.

It also seems to only be happening to the Canadian version of the I9000 Vibrant. Can anyone confirm this? Supposedly the difference between the Bell and other versions of the I9000 is that the internal SD Card is 16M for the Canadian version and only 8M for the others. Maybe this 16M card is causing Samsung some upgrade issues or fear? All US versions of the Galaxy S phone have 16M internal cards don't they?

The last time my Vibrant bricked it also took out the external SD card. The external removable card is not recognized (or can be formatted) by my replacement phone or my computer... So maybe there is an issue with other components in the phone as well?

Comments?

 

[twomix9900]

There are not enough words in the English language to succinctly and accurately articulate my rage and hatred @ Samsung Mobile.

 

[jrz5024]

As I've said before, this whole update thing wouldn't be a problem if not for Samsung's baked-in TW garbage. Skins should be included as launchers only, not as baked-in rehauls of the entire OS.

 

[Xopher]

I would like to hear to general discussions about the whole menatility that the tech savvy smartphone users have about updates.

When it comes to OS updates we (at least many of us) expect them, and we expect them for free (of course). We expect it because that is the way it has been, at or at least that?s how it has been for many.

A little over a year ago I bought my Captivate I also bought some netbooks from AT&T for our staff to use in the field. They were running Windows XP. I don?t expect AT&T to provide OS updates for those computers. Such a notion seems silly, but that?s what we expect for our smartphones.

Smartphones are really nothing more than small computers. So what if those who sell smartphones just take the same attitude as those who sell bigger computers? You buy it with an OS, and if you want to change it, that?s on you.

I can understand where this is coming from. But, if I buy a Dell/HP/Compaq computer, I'm not going back to the manufacturer to buy the updated OS. I'm buying the OS from the source (i.e. Microsoft if I'm updating Windows). Of course, the manufacturer has to provide drivers and such to handle new OS versions. How many manufacturers charge for driver updates?

Even though smart phones are like tiny computers, they aren't really handled the same way. It would be great if you could load a base OS, add in the device-specific drivers, then add in the components for whatever carrier we happen to be using.

For whatever reason, it isn't done like that. OS goes to the manufacturer, manufacturer tweaks it and passes it on to the carrier, who (bloats) tweaks it more before sending it out to customers. Whatever politics gets added into that as well probably adds to the mess. Too many cooks in the kitchen... everybody pointing fingers at someone else...

 

[psikofunkster]

This whole situation between Sammy and the carriers has turned into a farce. Verizon is pushing out a 2.2 update to the LG Ally as we speak. How is it that a mid-range Android phone is getting an update while a phone like the Fascinate (which has killer hardware and specs) still doesn't even have an OS update scheduled any time soon? Its not adding up at all. Something is definitely going on between the carriers and Samsung and we don't have any of the dirty details. I wonder if this will play a part with all the future hardware that may or may not hit US shores with the carriers...

Exactly they want us to buy the new brand one and throw away the older... ha ha, they're dreaming never buying a samsung again...never! until of course they update their firmware right away!

I have a conspiracy theory for ya...

Ever thought that there may be a hardware problem with the Galaxy S phones that Samsung is trying to resolve or is preventing them from upgrading the phones?

I am on my third Bell Canada Vibrant (I9000M). The phones were upgraded to Froyo and subsequently bricked due to the internal SD cards failing. From what I hear this is a wide spread issue (Bell has a return policy where they give customers $100 credit in addition to a replacement phone). While I was getting my last phone replaced there was another customer returning their Vibrant at the same time.

It also seems to only be happening to the Canadian version of the I9000 Vibrant. Can anyone confirm this? Supposedly the difference between the Bell and other versions of the I9000 is that the internal SD Card is 16M for the Canadian version and only 8M for the others. Maybe this 16M card is causing Samsung some upgrade issues or fear? All US versions of the Galaxy S phone have 16M internal cards don't they?

The last time my Vibrant bricked it also took out the external SD card. The external removable card is not recognized (or can be formatted) by my replacement phone or my computer... So maybe there is an issue with other components in the phone as well?

Comments?

No excuses for them, if they can't deliver froyo then gingerbread!

 

[Butters3605]

Just wanted to put my two cents in here...

I have been running DK28, basically since it came out. I have only run into three issues:

1. WiFi does not always turn on properly, gives an "error" (a reboot usually solves the issue).
2. TouchWiz launcher is slow to transition between portrait/landscape mode and via versa.
3. Camera software seems to make the auto-focus a little "soft"

here are the things that are working well for me:
1. GPS is awesome (accurate to 7ft) http://forum.androidcentral.com/epi...r-ways-fix-gps-problems-froyo.html#post478039
2. TouchWiz 3.0 enhancements
3. Flash 10.1

 

[capitaltpt]

I really think the answer to all of this is that manufacturers really need to stop including proprietary software on their phones. There was an article on AC a few days back that talked about how Sony admitted to making the mistake that people were more interested in the software than the hardware. I think this reigns true of most phone enthusiasts. I think most of us would agree that we purchased phones from the Galaxy S series because they had the top hardware out at the time.

What I believe Samsung (and other manufacturers) really need to do is have stock android on all of their phones. Then, if the manufacture really wants to have custom software to show off their brand, they should offer things like TouchWiz as optional free upgrades to the phones. In my mind, this would accomplish several things:

1. Faster updates to the newest version of Android
2. Decrease the fragmentation of Android
3. Encourage manufacturers to spend their time on the hardware of the phone to ensure a good quality WORKING product right out of the gate.
4. Manufacturers can still market their optional custom software as bonus features.

And before people start asking if this option would put people who choose to install the optional software in the same boat with updates that we're in now, Why can't they be installable and uninstallable?

Just food for thought.

 

[SmokeCage.com]

Invite Samsung Corp. into podcast!

So let's hear it straight from their corporate marketing veep regarding what's going on. Don't accept no for an answer Phil!

Invite them too speak at the podcast. I'm certain they can't say they don't have the technology. . .

 

[datastar]

My smartphone path started with serveral version of the Blackberry from T-Mobile and AT&T on a coporate account which never recieved updates. We got pretty good deals on the hardware that ran EDGE and really didn't think of software updates. My 1st personal smartphone was a HTC Tilt form AT&T running Win5 OS. The Tilt was upgraded to Win6.5 for free from a download on HTC's site. With the upgrade came many features and I thought that was the norm as I enjoyed my new look and feel/features.

I was holding out for a Windows7 phone but Bill and company took way too long and my Tilt had seen better days. I thought my next best option was to get on the iPhone ban wagon but I was not willing to give up the simple task of cut and pasting. My Tilt out performed my wife's and friends iPhone3G so I look for an alternative.

Android sounded pleasing as the iPhone4 had too many hicups; after a little research and a lot of comparison I opted for the AT&T Captivate. I felt I had the best phone on the market and was very pleased with the phone and myself. I would compare the Captivatet with friends iPhone4 doing speed test by typing in new URL in the default browser to see which would render the page first. As we tried to hit go at the same time to start the test my Captivate would ask if I wanted to use the default browser or the downloaded Dolphin browser. I would select the default browser and my Captivate would still render the web page before the iPhone4 would.

The smarthphone path I just described prompted me to belive upgrades would come whenever the carrier or manufacture deem them necessary or appropriate. I later learned Smasung promised an upgrade to Froyo for the Galaxy S so I expected it afte reading all the hype of speed increases and features like being able to view Flash rich web pages. The more I read article on Android Cenral the more I wanted Froyo and the more I disliked Samsung.

I own a Samsugn digital camera and a Samsung MemoryCam and are very pleased with their performance. I never expected to get firmware updates. If Samsung doesn't update my Captivate soon I will be looking for another brand of Android. OK; I will also take a peek at the iPhone5.

 

[s15274n]

My random thoughts on the matter....

Someone is to be blamed.. someone is doing wrong to make a gain.... and it is the consumer/the companies best friend who is being driven away by it. I believe showing them just how much they are pushing us, the consumer away the more beneficial it will be, not just for the consumer, but for our developers.

The only reason there is not an uproar worse than it is, is simply because of the HUGE NUMBER of leaks, or as I like to call them, hush-me-up-froyos, ha. Just enough to keep us going.

It was 2 days after #neveragain started catching on Twitter, lo and behold another leak, and with a secondary boot loader.. possibly the final froyo?

Sure would be nice if all the developers could get their hands on source...

If android is going to be as successful as it can be, I don't think the end-user should have to consider what version of bloat the manufacturer puts over the stock android when purchasing a phone, but how can we not now?

Hopefully this wall breaks down and manufacturers can be more open/quicker. THAT is when android will flourish.

Here is my #NeverAgain thread on XDA if you feel you would like to help!

 

[cb2367]

The lack of communication from the carriers and Samsung is the problem here, and it's the reason for all the rumors that have been going around. Samsung supposedly responded to the latest rumor by saying that they are not charging for updates, but then just after that response, they say on their Twitter page that they do not comment on rumors or speculation.

My question is if Samsung took the time to clear up the latest rumor, then why at the same time could they not post a brief statement on the progress towards releasing the update or at least what issues are being encountered.

As far as the communication goes, U.S. Cellular didn't seem to have a problem notifying their customers about when to expect updates for their phones. I don't know if this is the same "policy" that other carriers have, but as far as Sprint goes, they seem to think that silence is the best policy. Sprint won't say anything until the update is officially ready for release. At least with the Hero, they provided a general timeframe in terms of what quarter in what year the update would be released.

 

[Jonegross]

I would not be too demanding of sammy for froyo, but for them promising it and selling accessories that require it. With all the lies as a community I don't think it is unreasonable to do the following
1. Every android site start and finish the day with a post "still no froyo for sammy!"
2. Post a sticky in every galaxy s forum "still no froyo"
3. Start all reviews of future sammy products with an all cap warning regarding sammy's unwillingness to follow through on promises like "TO START THIS REVIEW, DO NOT BUY THIS PRODUCT UNLESS YOU ARE COMPLETELY SATISFIED WITH IT AS SHIPPED, SAMMY WILL NOT FOLLOW THROUGH WITH ANY PROMISED UPDATES. THEY WILL SAY ANYTHING TO SELL PRODUCT."
That said I still would take the fascinate over any vzn offering.

 

[rahlquist]

I really think the answer to all of this is that manufacturers really need to stop including proprietary software on their phones. There was an article on AC a few days back that talked about how Sony admitted to making the mistake that people were more interested in the software than the hardware. I think this reigns true of most phone enthusiasts. I think most of us would agree that we purchased phones from the Galaxy S series because they had the top hardware out at the time.

Agreed but the marketing jerks dont see it this way. That proprietary software is an exclusive feature(Even if everyone hates it, it will wow one or two grannies). Remember AT&T has gotten as draconian in the past as not letting you change the wallpaper on the phone away from one with their logo on it. To them its all about selling the brand. Lets be honest, when was the last time you asked a buddy "Wow what carrier phone is that?" before you asked about the phone? Unfortunately marketing thinks you do this.

What I believe Samsung (and other manufacturers) really need to do is have stock android on all of their phones.

I think this is where Google made their mistake with Android, unfortunately they had to in order to get market acceptance. Google provides an OS, and the cell phone manufacturers should only provide drivers. This removes the whole manufacturer/carrier issue from the equation and finally give the end users what they want. Upgrades to their phones without bologna. Yes this resembles the PC/OS business model but guess what, it works, it gives the EU the power to upgrade and keep his platform as long as he can stand to use it. The problem with this is the cell hardware manufacturers and the carriers would like for you to have to buy all new hardware every 6 months to make money and lock you into contracts so this will never happen.

And before people start asking if this option would put people who choose to install the optional software in the same boat with updates that we're in now, Why can't they be installable and uninstallable?

Just food for thought.

I know with some custom roms on the captivate you can install and uninstall all the APK for all of the bloat. This is how the phone should come but again the carriers want to cram how exclusive and special they are down your throat. Something they will never learn it seems is that if the software for the phone is worthy people will WANT it and seek it out. If its crapware people want it gone. Its just like how AT&T likes to force phone numbers into the phone book on phones in a manner that makes them irremovable. I understand they want the avg Joe to have the # to check their balance, but if I want my balance I will find it out, don't clutter my phone with 10-20 entries I don't want or need and then FORBID me to erase them.

 

[valueman]

To them its all about selling the brand.... Yes this resembles the PC/OS business model but guess what, it works

I think you made a lot of very good points in your posts.

On thing that differentiates the smartphone market from the PC market is the subsidies provided by the carriers. Despite the pleadings of the AC guys, most still buy smartphones with a contract and a subsidy. If the carrier is going to do that, then from a business standpoint it is reasonable for them to expect something in return. It appears that "something" is the branding, bloatware, etc. that we get now.

If carriers did away with those things, they would probably also want to do away with (or greatly reduce) subsidies. Is that a viable solution? Probably not because - let's be honest - this a far bigger issue to the tech types who hang out here than it is for the vast majority of smartphone users. For most who have learned that I rooted and ROMed my device their first reaction has been, "Wow, I would never even think about doing something like that."

I would pay more for a non-bloated device with vanilla android that could be easily upgraded, but most of the customer base for smartphones probably wouldn't.