Touch lag - Why does this problem stille exist?

[blackPuppydog]

Hi all,

have been lurking around here basically every time I research stuff for my android devices, but I'm a first time poster.
So first of all: thanks all for your advice and opinions so far

This time I am out to find out what the touch issues with Android really are about.
A video by gigaom [1] shows quite well what I mean.

I quickly hit upon the Touchmarks blog posts by Agawi, wich sadly are down (at the moment?) but luckily were archived and can be found in the WayBack Machine [2].

On every Android device I have tried (I own an Galaxy Nexus and a Nexus 7, but I went down to MediaMarkt the other day to try others) this lag kills the experience for everything latency-critical.
Wherever I was able to use the Developer options, I enabled the "Show touches" option and could reliably see the registered touches lagging behind my finger. So it is most probably not an issue of the active app, since this even happens in the launcher.
This is why I would always recommend an iPad for note-taking, e.g. in academia, and would even (I cannot believe I am typing this) consider one myself for the next tablet. When writing free-hand, the experience of seeing the "ink" lag behind the pen is somewhat similar to hearing the own voice with a 200ms delay: it lets you stutter, hesitate, and is generally really, really, REALLY unpleasing.
Given how fundamentally this problem of the Android system affects all other parts of the experience, there must be/have been serious efforts to address it.

So, my question to all of you is if there are coordinated efforts to adress touch lag issues in Android, where these efforts are documented and what the progress so far (if any) has been. The Agawi repository seems to be partly available at github [3]
Or is this a hardware issue and I have simply not found the right devices to test?

Thanks all for your time, and sorry for the long post...

LINKS
Please forgive the uglyness here, but real links are a thing for people with >=10 posts.
So please, use these very specific google queries. Or edit my post if you can.
[1] google for "Video: Android touch lag (and a possible solution)"
[2] Google "TouchMarks I: Smartphone Touchscreen Latencies" and use the cached version. Enter the URL into the WayBack Machine if you want it prettier!
[3] google for "Source for the TouchMarks benchmarks"

 

[mrsmumbles]

Welcome to AC! Without a video of your screen lagging, I'm not sure how much it does, etc. I know there's no lag on my Nexus 5 and OPO. But there is on my LG Optimus F7 and Kyocera Hydro. So I think lag has a lot to do with the phone hardware and age. The new phones today which are built powerfully definitely don't lag (unless it's OEM or carrier bloatware related). As always, you'll find strong opinions on the topic.

 

[blackPuppydog]

Well, I still can't post links, but the video I mentioned under [1] shows exactly what I mean, in about the same intensity, on the same phone (Galaxy Nexus).
I have been running the Galaxy Nexus and the Nexus 7 (2013 edition) on Stock and on CM since I have them, and they are very similar in this regard, no matter which version I was using. As I said, I tried some other tabplets the other day, namely the newest Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 and the The Galaxy Tab 5. In this case obviously only on Stock, but the symptoms are the same. Okay, that is still only Samsung and Devices and one Asus device, but at least the Nexus devices (especially on CM) offer the lowest amount of bloatware, so I am tempted to take this as "as good as it gets" in terms of software-induced lag.
And needless to say, the iPads next to the Galaxy devices were snappy as hell...

 

[mrsmumbles]

Oh my. I think I see what you mean. However I'm fresh out of peanuts and popcorn.

 

[JeffDenver]

[1] google for "Video: Android touch lag (and a possible solution)"

Here is the actual video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6oWDLk31EQ

That video is from 2012...The Nexus 5 definitely does not do that.

Until we can see something quantitative comparing modern Android phones, I don't think I can share your opinion.

This video shows comparisons as well...the Note 3 matches iPhone response time exactly. 100ms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt64YukdS28

 

[JeffDenver]

Phone Arena did a direct comparison as well.

Source: Funky metrics: HTC One (M8) has the fastest 46ms phone display touch response time so far

So the Nexus 5 also matches the iPhone 5s, and the HTC One is almost half that. Most Android flagships are comparable to the iPhone.

 

[LeoRex]

Concerns about Android's touch response performance, much like Apple's products, are about two years behind.

 

[JeffDenver]

Apple does have the best touch response still probably. Certainly for tablets. 70ms for a tablet really is outstanding.

I don't know how much difference 50ms really makes though. I don't take notes on my tablet, so maybe 50ms of lag really is a big deal for people who do.

 

[LeoRex]

. I don't take notes on my tablet, so maybe 50ms of lag really is a big deal for people who do.

If 50ms is too long, use a pen and paper : no lag

 

[JeffDenver]

If 50ms is too long, use a pen and paper : no lag

One more thing to lug around. And it's really easy to copy and transfer stuff digitally (hand written notes can get lost or damaged or destroyed). You can just take a picture of the entire chalkboard instead of copying it, which will be better than any notes (faster too). Record the speaker's voice or even video. Built in calculator...web browser for looking up related stuff during the event.

There's a lot to be said for using a tablet for note-taking IMO. I can see why people are interested in it.

 

[LeoRex]

There's a lot to be said for using a tablet for note-taking IMO. I can see why people are interested in it.

Oh, I'm just being a schmuck. I can see the merits. But at some point it becomes too much of a first world problem... ☺ my amazingly advanced piece of technology that didn't exist 10 years ago isn't instantly responding to my command!

Hell, a real tech savvy place would publish the contents of the white board directly online, no need to take a pic.

 

[blackPuppydog]

sorry for the slow reply, it was night here
Thanks JeffDenver for the second video, it shows the Nexus 7 I have myself can certainly not be seen as representative, sadly. Not to mention the GN...
But as I said, even the Galaxy Note 10.1 (2014 edition) felt laggy compared to the iPad next to it when handwriting.
PhoneArena shows this model as quite okay, at least compared to the Nexus 5. These benchmarks seem to not be applicable to iDevices.
But then I guess that is either fully subjective (although I believe it is not) or that the laggyness that I experience in the different apps for note taking creeps in at a different level, OS or App. On the Galaxy Tab I obviously had S Note, but which apps are people here using for this purpose?

LeoRex: Indeed, this is a first world problem, but one that has already been tackled, the "proof" being the good note taking qualities of the iPad. Having these new devices is certainly great, but they only really make a difference (to me, mind you) if I can use them to make things I want to do more efficient, pleasing and/or possible. I happen to be studying and will hopefully continue to do so for some decades, so working with pdf files is core to what I do ~8 hours a day. On the other hand, shutter speeds for example don't matter so much to me. Luckily, my hard-core lecture-notes days are mostly over, so I can usually find my resources on ArXive or SpringerLink

 

[JeffDenver]

PhoneArena shows this model as quite okay, at least compared to the Nexus 5. These benchmarks seem to not be applicable to iDevices.

Maybe it was just the devices you used.

I've used lots of iDevices. Touch response does seem better on them, but not significantly so IMO. If it seems significant to you, you should get an iDevice.

 

[Yossi2010]

here is a comparison between a motorola defy and the iphone 4.
youtube. com / watch?v=SediQNbVCkQ
*delete spaces(cant post working links yet.)*
the motorola defy(old as hell) seems to beat the iphone 4 and actually feels snappier.
the moto runs android 4.4.4 kitkat.
and the iphone 4 is running ios 7.1 (jailbroken in order to increase animation speeds that the reason for the folder openning so fast^^)

btw i did my own touch to sound test(using audacity and a mic to measure the time between my finger hitting the screen and the start of the audio play) on the iphhone 4 and on my htc one x
iP4: ~80-95ms
HOX: ~115-130ms
app dependent i used some drumming apps

 

[Apptelope]

A basic problem is that the screen refreshes at a fixed rate and the input is pulled at a fixed rate. The time between these two events can vary over time, at least on my devices. Worst case scenario is a lag of several frames. Just do the math. Then there is the basic threading model for the GUI in Android which is a bit flawed and can never be fixed.

My current phone is a HTC One (m7). Somewhat impressive that a phone with that hardware lags. But at the end of the day. There are so many other reasons to choose Android.

 

[ronstoney]

Also note that there is a small 300 ms delay with WebKit sites/apps as it's used to detect double touch - if a second touch is not detected within the 300 ms delay, it's interpreted as a single click.

r

 

[RavenSword]

A basic problem is that the screen refreshes at a fixed rate and the input is pulled at a fixed rate. The time between these two events can vary over time, at least on my devices. Worst case scenario is a lag of several frames. Just do the math. Then there is the basic threading model for the GUI in Android which is a bit flawed and can never be fixed.

My current phone is a HTC One (m7). Somewhat impressive that a phone with that hardware lags. But at the end of the day. There are so many other reasons to choose Android.

I'm honestly not trolling here, but I'm personally not sure how many reasons are left to choose android. IOS now has just as large screens and they still have the better app store. Outside of rooting and customizing, what's left? (don't flame me, I'm honestly curious.)

 

[flybub]

I'm honestly not trolling here, but I'm personally not sure how many reasons are left to choose android. IOS now has just as large screens and they still have the better app store. Outside of rooting and customizing, what's left? (don't flame me, I'm honestly curious.)

Android still has:
-access to the file system
-ability to set default apps
-ability to change the launcher
-widgets on the home screen(s)

I have never used a jail broken iPhone so it may be capable of these things as well

Posted via Android Central App

 

[A895]

I'm honestly not trolling here, but I'm personally not sure how many reasons are left to choose android. IOS now has just as large screens and they still have the better app store. Outside of rooting and customizing, what's left? (don't flame me, I'm honestly curious.)

If you think that is all Android has as a positive then you haven't been paying attention.

Freedom and ability is the best way to put it. Literally Android is like Windows for Phones. That is how much Android can do. Because of ability is what attracts so many to the platform.

iOS can have big screens all they want but they aren't doing it right. Why would you make a new phone with a large screen but it does nothing extra besides a reachability mode because the phone is so dang big?

Look at a Note 4 vs 6 Plus comparison and then you will notice how the Note 4 is the definition of what Android can do. Touch screen capacitive stylus, multitasking up to having 4-6 apps on the same screen!

Quite honestly iOS has only a fraction of what Android can do. And with all these new iOS 8 bugs and 6/6 Plus issues, I don't think they figured out how to fine tune those abilities just yet. Android still does a lot things better, iOS just has the benefits of vertical integration, that is all. Quite honestly apps function and looks are basically interchangeable on Android and iOS now.

To say otherwise is just favoritism. No average consumer will notice or care.

 

[RavenSword]

If you think that is all Android has as a positive then you haven't been paying attention.

Freedom and ability is the best way to put it. Literally Android is like Windows for Phones. That is how much Android can do. Because of ability is what attracts so many to the platform.

iOS can have big screens all they want but they aren't doing it right. Why would you make a new phone with a large screen but it does nothing extra besides a reachability mode because the phone is so dang big?

Look at a Note 4 vs 6 Plus comparison and then you will notice how the Note 4 is the definition of what Android can do. Touch screen capacitive stylus, multitasking up to having 4-6 apps on the same screen!

Quite honestly iOS has only a fraction of what Android can do. And with all these new iOS 8 bugs and 6/6 Plus issues, I don't think they figured out how to fine tune those abilities just yet. Android still does a lot things better, iOS just has the benefits of vertical integration, that is all. Quite honestly apps function and looks are basically interchangeable on Android and iOS now.

To say otherwise is just favoritism. No average consumer will notice or care.

Yeah, I can see all that. Personally, I'm not interesting in hacking, nodding, and tweaking too much. I'm never really going to rom or do all that. The most I do is add different home launcher and widgets. I prioritize performance too because I play games on my phone. So I hope android gets better at that.

I mainly am thinking of going full time on my android phone for a reason that may or may not actually be true: with android, I don't feel beholden to a specific company. If I use a android phone, I feel more free to use a mix and match of other stuff as I see fit. Wether that be windows machines, Apple computers, rokus, android tablets, iPads, etc. if I went with iPhone, then I feel I can sorta only use iPads, Apple tvs, and macs. I don't feel as flexible with my purchases.