Standard camera depth of field/focus problems?

[KeithLa]

(Starting a dedicated thread for this photo topic, since it's a specific problem concern.)

I'm struggling to get fully clear, in-focus standard lens photos from my edge+ on semi-close up (but not macro) shots, vs. what I've been used to from my 2017 Moto Z2F. It's almost as if edge+ Moto Camera is improperly applying Portrait mode bokeh blurring to standard shots, with poor edge detection. (I recall at least one press reviewer describing this problem in a hands-on launch review, too.)

Compare the photos below from edge+ (left image) vs. Z2F (right image). This appears to occur consistently with standard lens photos with field depth, vs. shots against a close distance background (wall, countertop, etc.). It's frustrating in that I expected *sharper* images from edge+'s 27MP images (quad-binned 109MP), vs. the Z2 Force 12MP sensor.

Click to view the large images, and then click again to magnify to full resolution. (Note, these uploads are not original resolution, but still show the issue I'm describing).

Notice the blurred petal edges on the left edge+ image:


Notice the blurred building in the background on the left edge+ image:


Notice blurred hanging plant, shingles, and large red fronds:


Here's a crop of above:

 

[L0n3N1nja]

You now have a significantly larger image sensor, 1/1.33" vs 1/2.55" What you're seeing is natural bokeh from a shallower depth of field. It's not a defect, it's the physics behind how lenses and image sensors work. A larger image sensor will produce a shallower depth of field resulting in less of the image remaining in focus when objects are at various distances from the camera.

 

[KeithLa]

You now have a significantly larger image sensor, 1/1.33" vs 1/2.55" What you're seeing is natural bokeh from a shallower depth of field. It's not a defect, it's the physics behind how lenses and image sensors work. A larger image sensor will produce a shallower depth of field resulting in less of the image remaining in focus when objects are at various distances from the camera.

Thanks L0n3N1nja, interesting to know this explanation. What I'm concerned about, though, is where's the improvement from the significantly larger image sensor? So far, the low light captures of this camera aren't wow'ing me, either. I'd rather have clear, focused daylight shots, vs. marginally improved low light exposure.

 

[KeithLa]

Also, the shot that bothers me the most of these side-by-side comparisons is the first one of the pink flower. Can I no longer get fully in-focus photos of full frame flowers with the edge+? That does not seem right.

 

[KeithLa]

Here's another example: Three shots in a row, standard lens, manually adjusting focus spot, can't get the cake, flowers, and Happy Birthday candle all in focus at the same time? This does not seem like a functional design to me, and I'm hoping there's something fixable in software by Motorola.

 

[KeithLa]

And another flower close-up, this time edge+ side-by-side vs. iPhone 11. I strongly prefer that the iPhone's 1/2.55" sensor is capable of getting the flowers fully in focus, and suspect my old Z2F would have done so, as well. If Motorola can't adjust this in the camera software, then I'm afraid this 109MP 1/1.33" sensor may have been a poor design choice.

 

[benjamminh]

Read about the Samsung S20 Ultra which has a very similar main camera sensor and its focus issues at close distance. Maybe there can be some minor tweaks but I agree this is also an issue of physics. Your use case may not work with this sensor. You may have to take a step back. Have you tried the macro mode for these closeup shots? In your comparison shots I preferred the Moto Edge plus shots for color and contrast. Having had multiple Moto phones (Droid Maxx, X Pure, Z Force, Z3, Z4, and Edge+) I'm glad they have a camera system while not the best has closed the gap but realistically still is a little behind the best. So I think it's unlikely there will be a software fix that will fully improve this.

 

[benjamminh]

Another thing I've read is that the viewer gives an inaccurate view of the sharpness of the shot before you take it and then once you take it you see it's not that sharp. They should definitely fix that.

 

[L0n3N1nja]

Thanks L0n3N1nja, interesting to know this explanation. What I'm concerned about, though, is where's the improvement from the significantly larger image sensor? So far, the low light captures of this camera aren't wow'ing me, either. I'd rather have clear, focused daylight shots, vs. marginally improved low light exposure.

A larger sensor allows one of two things, larger pixels that gather more light or higher pixel density for a higher MP image with more detail.

Problem is they jacked up the MP count creating ridiculously tiny pixels in the process and pixel binning doesn't seem nearly as effective as having larger pixels to begin with. So essentially the larger sensor isn't really any better in low light due to the tiny pixels.

The high MP count should render much more detail but due to physics the tiny lenses on cell phones are incapable of resolving detail.

Realistically the larger sensor should have remained at 12mp to improve low light while not being limited by the optics(lens) on a cell phone. I don't agree with the direction cell phone cameras are moving right now. It's basically marketing to claim high MP because that's what sells to the average consumer.

 

[KeithLa]

Another thing I've read is that the viewer gives an inaccurate view of the sharpness of the shot before you take it and then once you take it you see it's not that sharp. They should definitely fix that.

Thank you for that reminder, Benjamminh, that's exactly what's bothering me. I see a perfectly crisp image on the screen that is exactly the photo I want, so why can't that image be the one that is captured?

Which is why my immediate assumption has been that it's a software flaw. And also, the fact that there are blurry areas in the foreground edges, not just in the distant or infinite background, like on my first flower petal shot above. And also, the frog photo in the photo share sticky thread.

 

[KeithLa]

FWIW, here's a shot with edge+ Ultra Wide 0.9x on left vs. edge+ Standard 1.0x on the right, both focused on the middle pink flowers, clearly demonstrating the much narrower depth of field of the edge+ 1/1.33" standard lens.

I guess my takeaway is to remember to use Ultra Wide or Macro for close subjects, though I'm hoping this isn't merely optics/physics with the Standard sensor and lens, since it still seems to me that near field focus could/should be better, no matter what, like those pink flower petals in my first shot above.

 

[benjamminh]

Thanks for sharing that. It looks like the two shots are fairly consistent besides the focus.

 

[Mooncatt]

You now have a significantly larger image sensor, 1/1.33" vs 1/2.55" What you're seeing is natural bokeh from a shallower depth of field. It's not a defect, it's the physics behind how lenses and image sensors work. A larger image sensor will produce a shallower depth of field resulting in less of the image remaining in focus when objects are at various distances from the camera.

This, and the Edge+ has a wider f/1.8 aperture, vs the Z2F's f/2.0 aperture. A weirder aperture will also make for a shallower DoF (it's an inverse rato, so a smaller number means a larger opening). It may not look like a big difference on paper, but DoF is impacted more as the aperture gets wider, so a small numerical change makes a big difference in DoF. Being wider also lets in more light, which is why phones are trending this way as well. To overcome this, your only option is to step back and then use the digital zoom. DoF grows with increased distance between camera and subject.

I also agree with L0n3N1nja in that I don't like the current trend of phone cameras. I think f/2.0 is about the sweet spot for phones without a dedicated macro lens.I'd also prefer larger sensors that keep with reasonable resolutions in the 12-16 MP range. My LG V60 has a 64MP sensor that can bin to 16MP. The 16MP binned images are better in every way compared to the 64MP images. I even got a sharper and better focused shot of the moon at 10x digital zoom at 16MP binned. If anything, a straight 16 MP would be just as good, if not better, while saving costs from both hardware and software standpoints.

I guess an acceptable alternative would be a larger sensor with the same pixel density, which would allow for a 20-24 MP sensor with the same image quality as a smaller 16MP sensor (all else being equal, of course).

 

[KeithLa]

To overcome this, your only option is to step back and then use the digital zoom. DoF grows with increased distance between camera and subject.

Thank you Mooncatt and L0n3N1nja for your thoughts and suggestions, very instructional and helpful.

I can't help but expect there's likely to be a lot of other new edge+ owners like me who fear their edge+ has focus issues, compared to their last smartphone with smaller image sensor and narrower apertures.

So far, I'm also just surprised that I so far haven't taken any edge+ photos, in either daylight or dim light, that have impressed me as significantly sharper or brighter than my Z2F, so right now the 109MP sensor feels to be more of a liability than an asset. My last example above (three vases) has me feeling 27MP Ultra Wide is the better choice for bright lighting, at least. Maybe I'll get in the habit of shooting everything twice, once in each mode, which thankfully is easy enough to do with a quick swipe down on the viewfinder image, or even three times by following your advice to step back and use digital zoom on the Standard lens.