Which wired high impedance over ear headphones are decent without breaking the bank?

[Mike Dee]

I bought the same Sony head phones last week. I absolutely love them. I now hear sounds and voices in songs that l never knew existed. The head phones really bring the DAC alive more than lower impedece ear pieces. I also knew ahead of time that the cable was fixed and that they also do not have a microphone. Those 2 things were unimportant to me....LOL The price and reviews were more important to me.

I spent a little more but got a tremendous deal on the Audio-Technica ATH-MSR7NC. They go for 299 and I got them for 219. These babies crank some serious sound.

 

[Laura Knotek]

I spent a little more but got a tremendous deal on the Audio-Technica ATH-MSR7NC. They go for 299 and I got them for 219. These babies crank some serious sound.

Nice! I have an Audio-Technica turntable/cartridge, which I love.

 

[Mike Dee]

Mike, what did you settle on?

Audio-Technica ATH-MSR7NC. The leanest sound I've ever heard. Incredible highs.... Bass without Mudd.... Not good for Bass Heads but I love it.

 

[middbrew]

Very nice. those look like good cans. I'm sure they will be like my Senn HD 650's, the more you use them the better they sound. So if you are enjoying them now, you will like them even more after putting them through some hours of listening. I'm not sure why there's a "break in" period, but they do get better over time.

 

[Mike Dee]

Very nice. those look like good cans. I'm sure they will be like my Senn HD 650's, the more you use them the better they sound. So if you are enjoying them now, you will like them even more after putting them through some hours of listening. I'm not sure why there's a "break in" period, but they do get better over time.

In simple language the drivers inside speakers or headphones are tight based on a few factors and loosen up electrically and mechanically after a brief period of usage and then normalize.

 

[talon1189]

In simple language the drivers inside speakers or headphones are tight based on a few factors and loosen up electrically and mechanically after a brief period of usage and then normalize.

What have you read about the average amount of usage hours to "normalize" for headphones?

 

[Mike Dee]

What have you read about the average amount of usage hours to "normalize" for headphones?

I don't think it takes very long to exercise speakers and headphones to the point where their true sound characteristics reach a plateau. The biggest factor in sound when it comes to electronics in general is warm up.

 

[middbrew]

I don't think it takes very long to exercise speakers and headphones to the point where their true sound characteristics reach a plateau. The biggest factor in sound when it comes to electronics in general is warm up.

I know every time I use my VHF, UHF, and SB radios they work better after they are on for a while and have warmed up. I'm assuming you are taking about the same principal with headphones (and speakers in general). Is that correct?

 

[Mike Dee]

I know every time I use my VHF, UHF, and SB radios they work better after they are on for a while and have warmed up. I'm assuming you are taking about the same principal with headphones (and speakers in general). Is that correct?

Electricity is actually good for most electronic components unless they can't dissipate heat well... I used to be a sound engineer for several rock bands and when we were in the studio between gigs I rarely shut my equipment down

 

[John_Cline]

To make it simple, all headphones require a certain amount of power to be driven at a certain acoustic level, this is the sensitivity of the headphones, it's expressed in dB/mW (decibel per milliwatts).

Considering P = U^2 / R = R * I^2 (Power = Voltage squared divided by impedance = Impedance times Intensity squared) and headphones with the same sensitivity:

- with low impedance headphones you need more current to achieve the desired acoustic level.
- with high impedance headphones, you need more voltage to achieve the desired acoustic level.

In addition to that, there's always the damping factor to consider (headphone impedance / amplifier impedance), it's usually recommended to have a damping factor greater than 10, ie. with 300 ohms headphones, use an amp with a maximum output impedance of 30 ohms.

In short, with high impedance headphones, you need an amp with more voltage swing and with low impedance headphones an amp with more current capacity and a lower output impedance.

Given a quality headphone amp with an appropriately low output impedance, which the V20 certainly has, there is no practical sonic difference between low impedance vs high impedance headphones, the V20 can provide the required current to drive low impedance headphones, and unlike most phones, when high impedance phones are plugged in, it can provide the required higher voltage.

(I've been an audio engineer since 1968, these are concepts that I've dealt with for 48 years.)

 

[Mike Dee]

To make it simple, all headphones require a certain amount of power to be driven at a certain acoustic level, this is the sensitivity of the headphones, it's expressed in dB/mW (decibel per milliwatts).

Considering P = U^2 / R = R * I^2 (Power = Voltage squared divided by impedance = Impedance times Intensity squared) and headphones with the same sensitivity:

- with low impedance headphones you need more current to achieve the desired acoustic level.
- with high impedance headphones, you need more voltage to achieve the desired acoustic level.

In addition to that, there's always the damping factor to consider (headphone impedance / amplifier impedance), it's usually recommended to have a damping factor greater than 10, ie. with 300 ohms headphones, use an amp with a maximum output impedance of 30 ohms.

In short, with high impedance headphones, you need an amp with more voltage swing and with low impedance headphones an amp with more current capacity and a lower output impedance.

Given a quality headphone amp with an appropriately low output impedance, which the V20 certainly has, there is no practical sonic difference between low impedance vs high impedance headphones, the V20 can provide the required current to drive low impedance headphones, and unlike most phones, when high impedance phones are plugged in, it can provide the required higher voltage.

(I've been an audio engineer since 1968, these are concepts that I've dealt with for 48 years.)

It's a little more complicated because their are a lot of factors to consider. Some of the high end headphones are only available in high impedance and a great majority of headphones are only available in low. The only way to directly compare is if you try some of headphones that are available in different impedances. I know some of the Beyerdynamics headphone models are available in multiple impedance choices and there is a sonic difference. Whether or not it is a practical difference is an all together different topic and up to the individual to decide. What complicates the whole thing when we bring the V20 into the equation is that the amp gain changes and the number of DAC modules in use changes depending on what's plugged in and makes it tough to do a real comparison. With the V20 I prefer the high impedance high output mode because of the extra kick and the fact that it takes full advantage of the Quad DAC. LG claims that the Quad DAC low power mode shuts down 3 of 4 DAC for low impedance headphones. For lower quality headphones that may not make as much of a difference. For high quality low impedance,headphones it may make a difference because when you cut the number of DAC it supposedly changes the signal to noise ratios and you might be able to hear the difference.

 

[X1tymez]

To make it simple, all headphones require a certain amount of power to be driven at a certain acoustic level, this is the sensitivity of the headphones, it's expressed in dB/mW (decibel per milliwatts).

Considering P = U^2 / R = R * I^2 (Power = Voltage squared divided by impedance = Impedance times Intensity squared) and headphones with the same sensitivity:

- with low impedance headphones you need more current to achieve the desired acoustic level.
- with high impedance headphones, you need more voltage to achieve the desired acoustic level.

In addition to that, there's always the damping factor to consider (headphone impedance / amplifier impedance), it's usually recommended to have a damping factor greater than 10, ie. with 300 ohms headphones, use an amp with a maximum output impedance of 30 ohms.

In short, with high impedance headphones, you need an amp with more voltage swing and with low impedance headphones an amp with more current capacity and a lower output impedance.

Given a quality headphone amp with an appropriately low output impedance, which the V20 certainly has, there is no practical sonic difference between low impedance vs high impedance headphones, the V20 can provide the required current to drive low impedance headphones, and unlike most phones, when high impedance phones are plugged in, it can provide the required higher voltage.

(I've been an audio engineer since 1968, these are concepts that I've dealt with for 48 years.)

Well said. Thanks for this knowledge. I've seen folks with 1k setup and it blow my mind to see people invest this much.

 

[John_Cline]

It's a little more complicated because their are a lot of factors to consider. Some of the high end headphones are only available in high impedance and a great majority of headphones are only available in low. The only way to directly compare is if you try some of headphones that are available in different impedances. I know some of the Beyerdynamics headphone models are available in multiple impedance choices and there is a sonic difference. Whether or not it is a practical difference is an all together different topic and up to the individual to decide. What complicates the whole thing when we bring the V20 into the equation is that the amp gain changes and the number of DAC modules in use changes depending on what's plugged in and makes it tough to do a real comparison. With the V20 I prefer the high impedance high output mode because of the extra kick and the fact that it takes full advantage of the Quad DAC. LG claims that the Quad DAC low power mode shuts down 3 of 4 DAC for low impedance headphones. For lower quality headphones that may not make as much of a difference. For high quality low impedance,headphones it may make a difference because when you cut the number of DAC it supposedly changes the signal to noise ratios and you might be able to hear the difference.

People believe a lot of unscientific and unprovable things about audio, some people believe that vinyl records sound better and particularly when played with a moon rock stylus. DACs are incredibly complicated devices, comprising an oversampling stage, a ΔΣ (sigma-delta) modulator, a filter, decimation, and finally an output filter or headphone amp. Having multiple DACs does help noise performance. Ken Hong from LG states, "The signals from each DAC path adds together but noise does not, resulting in higher signal with less increase in noise. Each doubling of converters results in half the decimation noise." Nowhere have I seen any definitive proof that they shut off DACs for low impedance phones, as far as I can tell, if it says "HiFi" then all DACs are in use. There is an option to turn off all but one DAC in order to save battery power and, yes, that would increase noise levels. What's really going on inside the V20's ESS ES9218 DAC chip is a closely guarded secret. Just find some headphones/earbuds that sound good to you (it's HIGHLY subjective) and enjoy the music, low impedance or high impedance doesn't really matter.

 

[Mike Dee]

Ken stated that low impedance reduces it to one DAC. Can I prove what he's saying... Of course not.
How can you force it to play over only one DAC?
I don't see that setting. I only can turn of HIFI.
One thing I can tell you is that I've tried different impedance headphones of the same make and model and they do have different sound characteristics. Not necessarily better but it is different. Your statement about no difference also doesn't apply in the case of the V20 because the output of the DAC changes based on what you put into it and that has an impact on sound by itself. I tried this phone at B&h with at least 20 different headphones and also brought the G5 with me for comparison. There are many factors that influence sound that are outside the realm of electronic formulas.

 

[John_Cline]

Ken stated that low impedance reduces it to one DAC. Can I prove what he's saying... Of course not.
How can you force it to play over only one DAC?
I don't see that setting. I only can turn of HIFI.
One thing I can tell you is that I've tried different impedance headphones of the same make and model and they do have different sound characteristics. Not necessarily better but it is different. Your statement about no difference also doesn't apply in the case of the V20 because the output of the DAC changes based on what you put into it and that has an impact on sound by itself. I tried this phone at B&h with at least 20 different headphones and also brought the G5 with me for comparison. There are many factors that influence sound that are outside the realm of electronic formulas.

If you turn off "HiFi" it will only use one DAC to save battery power. That's all.

All other things being equal, if one source is louder, virtually everyone will choose that one as sounding better. High impedance mode on the V20 (which is a completely different thing than HiFi mode) will swing more voltage which will make the headphone louder at a given volume volume setting on the phone. It does NOT change the accuracy of what's coming out of the Quad-DAC, just the voltage.

All microphones sound different due to manufacturing tolerances even if they are technically the exact same model, speakers sound vastly different depending on what room they're in, where you're standing and which way you have your head turned. Headphones all sound different, electronic circuits sound different depending on design and components used, all ears are different and everyone has different tastes. Virtually none of this can be quantified with regard to "sound quality." There are an almost infinite number of variables in the audio reproduction chain that affect what you hear.

Believe what you want to believe, the fact remains that if the "HiFi" indicator is on, all DACs are being used, and if "High Impedance Mode" is on, the gain structure is changed so that it just swings more voltage. That's all there is to it, and I'm done.

 

[Mike Dee]

I was under the impression when you turn HIFI off that you are disabling the DAC and running of the Snapdragon's DAC.

 

[John_Cline]

I was under the impression when you turn HIFI off that you are disabling the DAC and running of the Snapdragon's DAC.

Yes, that is my understanding as well. Whether to turn off HiFi mode or not is a user-controllable thing.

 

[Mike Dee]

I will believe what I want just like you will believe what you. You're not the only one with experience in sound engineering and as far i can tell based on reasearch from multiple sources no one knows for sure how the DAC works except what we are bring told. The whole low impedance vs high impedance issue has been debated by expert against expert and opinions differ, however the results can be measured with the right equipment. My ears tell me a whole different story.

 

[Mike Dee]

Yes, that is my understanding as well, but manually turning off HiFi doesn't have anything to do with high impedance mode.

It's definitely low output so it would not make sense to run high impedance headphones with it off.

 

[tadpoles]

What's interesting is that Jerry wrote that the V10 measured better than the V10, if I'm not mistaken. Both phones sound good to me but I can't say that the V10 sounds any better or worse. ...Guess I don't have "Golden ears".